Opinion Domestic Politics BF style

[edgie]

One of those clips is literally from the presidential debate. Just admit you were wrong about this and move on.

I wasn’t wrong, the post wasn’t complete at the time. I’m never wrong, you can ask my friends, they will all tell you, even the experts, they say, that edgie, he’s got a tremendous capacity to not be wrong. I could be the least wrong person ever. A tremendous capacity. Terrific.

 

[raman]

The point is exactly as I said.

What can the democrats learn from this?

I'm more interested in what the rural electorate can learn from this.

 

[Portology]

Oh fu** off with that.

Is it so hard to realise that a lot of people outside urban centres are feeling more disaffected than ever? And that the glitz and glam and Hollywood flavour that the democrats pride themselves on doesn't help their cause in places of farmers and miners and those that just aren't interested in city living, which is much more prevalent in America than here mind you. Completely forgetting too that city populations will enjoy a higher average standard of living too? Is that who we let elect the leaders? Those that have it on average, better than others? Do we leave the rest behind? I think those that need more from the government are those we should be getting behind, not leaving behind.

I know Trump's a crook a hypocrite a fake and his words are hollow, but those hollow words have still spoken to more people in those parts of the world than his opposition. His ears have pretended to listen more.

This should be a learning opportunity, instead you've gone full Hilary with her deplorables. How'd that work out?

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“Learning” would be said communities realising they’re riding Obama’s post-GFC recovery, at best, and that they’d been played. Not something anyone wants to hear about their own identity.

“But but his ears”, see, he DID listen. He heard suckers and played them, which is what he always does.

Said communities, especially in small rural states, have had electoral “privilege” baked in for two centuries, going all the way back to that country’s original founding sins. Even if they never lowered themselves to use said privilege they still can’t abide losing it to any other kind of community. That’s a longer issue than the accelerant of Trumpism, but it’s part of the history of tragic saviour complexes, evangelical, textual, chemical or otherwise.

Telling folks they’re just plain wrong about some things isn’t ignoring them, but it’s bloody damn near impossible politics. It’s that vacuum that has left them open to - and valuable to - every charlatan in the business. “It’ll take a long time to put this bushfire out” is honest yet terrible, no, suicidal politics in the US.

Nothing more pathetic than watching the electorally privileged in one state demand that others’ votes count for even less than they already do, while at the same time the same lot in another state raise the hackles and the gun turrets on the merest unsubstantiated rumour that *their* votes might not be being counted fully.

Meanwhile Karen of Orange leads them on. For show.






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[sobrave]

I didn't say Trump is right, nor did I say those people are right or indeed smart for voting for him, but I did say he's gone to more effort to actually appeal to these people. An illusion of care for the lifestyles of these people. More than any recent Democrat. Sometimes an illusion is all you get, and it's better than nothing for many. This isn't a North/Southern redneck Bible Belt thing, it's a split showing all over the states, top to bottom, east to west.


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Bullshit, tramp has done it by appealing to these peoples biases and prejudices more than anything. Making the left "the enemy" and inventing threats around every corner.

He bleats on about making America great, while achieving nothing other than what conservatives always go for, making the rich richer. Stonks are doing good though, so things must be looking up for all those miners and farmers!

 

[Portology]

Bullshit, tramp has done it by appealing to these peoples biases and prejudices more than anything. Making the left "the enemy" and inventing threats around every corner.

He bleats on about making America great, while achieving nothing other than what conservatives always go for, making the rich richer. Stonks are doing good though, so things must be looking up for all those miners and farmers!

Liked for “stonks”


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[JakeNeadeFan]

Bullshit, tramp has done it by appealing to these peoples biases and prejudices more than anything. Making the left "the enemy" and inventing threats around every corner.

He bleats on about making America great, while achieving nothing other than what conservatives always go for, making the rich richer. Stonks are doing good though, so things must be looking up for all those miners and farmers!

This is just blatantly wrong. The polling for trump on the economy is very, very good. He is the only president in literally decades where a majority of respondents said they are better off financially than they were 4 years ago. This wasnt the case after Obamas first term, Bushs first term or even Clinton's first term. Even with Covid!

And this is under the spectre of significant polling error favouring Democrat voters. If the polls were more accurate these numbers might look even better for Trump.

It's fair to criticise Trump for a a whole gamut of different factors and generally his repugnant demeanour, but the facts say he is a good economic manager.

 

[philthy05]

And yet the rural working class poor that votes heavily for trump is as poor and ****ed as ever.

none of them are any better off than four years ago, they’re still just head above water.

Trump economics have also completely sold the future for a small boost now. Joe Blow has held his coal mining job for an extra couple of years but in the meantime every major economic body across the world is pouring everything they have into future proof resource markets.

trumps America has fallen further beyond the rest of the world. America became a powerhouse because they forged ahead in new industries, they’re falling behind cause they’re holding onto the same ones until their dying breathe.

 

[MrMeaner]

Personally, I'd prefer it if Biden was a socialist. It would also be great if Americans learnt what socialism is. Because what they describe as socialism ain't it.

 

[StuMan]

Like fine wine...

 

[raman]

This is just blatantly wrong. The polling for trump on the economy is very, very good. He is the only president in literally decades where a majority of respondents said they are better off financially than they were 4 years ago. This wasnt the case after Obamas first term, Bushs first term or even Clinton's first term. Even with Covid!

Lol. He’s also the only president who told his followers how much better off they were under him at every opportunity and regardless of context, and the only president whose followers en masse believe every word he says with a complete lack of critical thinking. I wonder what the connection is there.

 

[JakeNeadeFan]

Lol. He’s also the only president who told his followers how much better off they were under him at every opportunity and regardless of context, and the only president whose followers en masse believe every word he says with a complete lack of critical thinking. I wonder what the connection is there.

I don't really think that's true. In the context of trump having one of the lowest ever approval ratings it's pretty astounding that the polls come out so good for him on the economy and financial wellbeing.

 

[Portology]

I don't really think that's true. In the context of trump having one of the lowest ever approval ratings it's pretty astounding that the polls come out so good for him on the economy and financial wellbeing.

To the extent there was a boom, it was mostly the tail end of the long slow GFC recovery engineered by Obama’s team. Not anything that magically began in late January 2017. No surprise that the Trump-inclined tend to struggle with “correlation is not causation”, given the other belief systems that tend to appear in their midst.

The sheer persistence of ... belief ... is one pillar of the “floor” under his vote.

There are other issues, like the paralysis of literacy in millions such that they no longer understand how their own progressive taxation system works.

The least objectionable Trump voters may even dislike the guy (approval) but are fooled into thinking he’s better for their hip pocket (+points for “good on economy” and “not a ‘socialist’, whew”). That group are surely going to mess with always subjective polling.


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[JakeNeadeFan]

To the extent there was a boom, it was mostly the tail end of the long slow GFC recovery engineered by Obama’s team. Not anything that magically began in late January 2017. No surprise that the Trump-inclined tend to struggle with “correlation is not causation”, given the other belief systems that tend to appear in their midst.

The sheer persistence of ... belief ... is one pillar of the “floor” under his vote.

There are other issues, like the paralysis of literacy in millions such that they no longer understand how their own progressive taxation system works.

The least objectionable Trump voters may even dislike the guy (approval) but are fooled into thinking he’s better for their hip pocket (+points for “good on economy” and “not a ‘socialist’, whew”). That group are surely going to mess with always subjective polling.


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It may very well be true that Trump inherited an economy that was always destined to grow, but how could we possibly know that? There is no way to know the counterfactual.

What's more, if Clinton had won in 2016 and had achieved the same economic outcomes there would be no question that it was her doing. We wouldn't be having this debate. I don't think Trump deserves much, but at the very least he deserves to be judged under the same conditions as other leaders.

Polling is by definition subjective. I'm not really sure what your point is? If anything polling is the best way to measure economic prosperity. The relationship between stock prices, gdp growth, unemployment, wage growth etc and the prosperity of the average person is questionable. But there is no question in the information straight from the horses mouth. If more people believe they are better off now then that has to be a desirable outcome for economic policy.

 

[sobrave]

Economic growth is and has always been a poor indicator of success.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

Trump nearly won another election by saying the commies will come and take your guns.

Simple as that.

Americans are too stupid to be cared about. * them in their tiny little brains.

 

[backtozero]

 

[Lawnchair Larry]

Many years ago I read a Time magazine article about a US Lay Preacher who preached on Sunday, then assembled nuclear weapons on Monday.
It will be difficult for Biden to navigate a country with such bipolar mentality. Such mentality is pervasive. He will need all the experience that decades in politics have informed.
How to tackle CV19 when even masks are a political weapon? Good luck to him.

 

[Schulzenfest]

Lol. He’s also the only president who told his followers how much better off they were under him at every opportunity and regardless of context, and the only president whose followers en masse believe every word he says with a complete lack of critical thinking. I wonder what the connection is there.

 

[Portology]

Trump nearly won another election by saying the commies will come and take your guns.

Simple as that.

Americans are too stupid to be cared about. fu** them in their tiny little brains.

Yeah it’s more than just “stupid” on one or two issues... a quick look at the Libertarian spoiler vote in key states is incredibly sobering.

5m popular vote win yet Biden would have lost very comprehensively in the electoral college had the spoiler Libertardians stayed off the list. The Kochbros would have loved that.

Just as the Greentards dumbintentionally did to Hilary last time.

Just add SCOTUS’s tragic Citizens United (allowing unlimited $ to sneak into campaigns via corporates) and Shelby Vs Holder (suspending significant Voting Rights Act protections) decisions into the mix. Just in the last decade and a half.

Their people may be fractured but their electoral system is now *broken*. There is a difference.


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[edgie]

I don't understand how the Libertarian thing isn't bigger in the US... are they just that embedded in the two party system? I mean we aren't much better here, but at the same time, it's a lot better.

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[raman]

Their people may be fractured but their electoral system is now *broken*. There is a difference.

I was wondering the other day whether the electoral college could be saved if the college votes per state were scaled by total voter turnout after the election, rather than sort-of-but-not-really by population.

I haven't (and probably couldn't) crunch the numbers but intuitively it seems like it would improve the fairness of the college and place an even greater premium on maximising turnout. Or perhaps organically grow turnout without having to provoke your base into a froth.

 

[raman]

I don't understand how the Libertarian thing isn't bigger in the US... are they just that embedded in the two party system? I mean we aren't much better here, but at the same time, it's a lot better.

Because there are relatively few bloodsucking laissez faire capitalists who aren't also massive god-botherers, or at least accustomed since the Reagan era to cozying up to massive god-botherers.

 

[sobrave]

I was wondering the other day whether the electoral college could be saved if the college votes per state were scaled by total voter turnout after the election, rather than sort-of-but-not-really by population.

I haven't (and probably couldn't) crunch the numbers but intuitively it seems like it would improve the fairness of the college and place an even greater premium on maximising turnout. Or perhaps organically grow turnout without having to provoke your base into a froth.

America just needs to split into 2 or 3 countries. Maybe west coast, east coast and then the redneck shitholes can all be their own country. The confederates can go back to oppressing minorities and walking around Walmart with AR-15s because they can

 

[Schulzenfest]

I don't understand how the Libertarian thing isn't bigger in the US... are they just that embedded in the two party system? I mean we aren't much better here, but at the same time, it's a lot better.

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It's because they don't have preferential voting. In Australia you can vote for the Greens and still know your vote will go to Labor over the Liberals if necessary, or you can vote for One Nation and still know your vote will go to the Liberals instead of Labor if necessary. In the US, you vote for anybody but the Democrat or Republican and you may as well have not bothered voting.

 

[edgie]

It's because they don't have preferential voting. In Australia you can vote for the Greens and still know your vote will go to Labor over the Liberals if necessary, or you can vote for One Nation and still know your vote will go to the Liberals instead of Labor if necessary. In the US, you vote for anybody but the Democrat or Republican and you may as well have not bothered voting.

Yeah but even as a first preference I thought they'd be able to do it somewhere... To me it seems the best option for Muh Freedom combined with progression... But like Raman said, extremists and the Bible Belt I guess.

Heck, one here can even vote for One Nation AND the Greens.

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