Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

[wahooo]

It was honestly the stupidest sh*t I've ever heard and made me want to punch his smug face. This is coming from someone onboard with the snap lockdowns, getting vaccinated next week and I voted for him.

Lie about it, I dont care, but dont give anti-vaxxers ammo and whether he likes it or not, we cant lock ourselves from the rest of the world forever. There has to be a target for the general population to reach

Can you actually point to one of McGowan's comments that you have an issue with? Or have you just been reading the spin put on his comments by outlets like Sky?

All he said was that the "preferred option" was covid zero. Wasn't at all deviating from the national plan. He reiterated that the national plan allows for highly targeted lockdowns and use of the hard border where reasonable. He even hinted restrictions would ease once we hit vaccination targets and that he might be slower to put a border up. What he said was entirely in accordance with the national plan. And FFS what is so bad about 'preferring' covid zero?

 

[Taylor]

Agree with most of your post but in the interest of your point about "The public needs to be educated on the reality of how dangerous this virus is, not sold the worst - just the actual numbers" you then shouldn't make the statement above. There is probably more evidence Delta is more dangerous than Alpha rather than less but we need a more data. Fatality rates are impacted by more than just how dangerous a strain is (eg vaccinations, improved treatments, earlier testing etc).

That's true, the end position is that delta variant (if we call this prime covid) results in far less deaths now than covid did back when policy was created.

Back then the data was showing near 10% out of Italy and we rightfully slammed the door shut in panic, 10% could destroy nations.

The data has since mellowed and we should be adjusting our fears and expectations accordingly. If that means we need to consider options such as the UK where they have both high vaccinations and high natural immunity/resistance levels from widespread recovery of the virus resulting in much lower fatalities, or examples such as NJ/NY where they don't have as many vulnerable people anymore so their fatalities are down.

The primary issue is, has been and will remain that our health system isn't capable of handling a bump/surge in cases of anything.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Can you actually point to one of McGowan's comments that you have an issue with? Or have you just been reading the spin put on his comments by outlets like Sky?

All he said was that the "preferred option" was covid zero. Wasn't at all deviating from the national plan. He reiterated that the national plan allows for highly targeted lockdowns and use of the hard border where reasonable. He even hinted restrictions would ease once we hit vaccination targets and that he might be slower to put a border up. What he said was entirely in accordance with the national plan. And FFS what is so bad about 'preferring' covid zero?

I'd also prefer covid zero, but covid zero is impossible so the mention of it only delays the inevitable required shift in thinking. The definitive response needed to be "we will open up once we get to 80 or 90 since we realise covid is going nowhere and we cant be segregated from the rest of the world forever"

McGowan "And we don't want to have deaths and we don't want to have spread of the virus, but there can be some easing of some of the rules. When you get to 70, perhaps 80, if there is a lockdown it might be a lesser area rather than the entire metropolitan area. It might be a country town rather than the entire region"

What is this approach going to do in the future when people are vaccinated? Unless I'm misinformed, the vaccine has a minimal impact on spread but a MASSIVE impact on the effects. Locking down at that point is completely redundant as per NSW, locking down small areas doesnt do s**t with Delta. Lockdown everything or dont lockdown at all.

McGowan:

"We retain the right to put in place border [restrictions], that's understood, but some of the measures we put in place might ease, once we reach that level of vaccination."

This statement does nothing except give dumb anti-vaxxers, or people on the fence of getting vaccinated ammunition. It is a poor statement. Lie, I dont care, get people vaccinated first.

"I'm looking forward to getting over 80 per cent, apparently no country in the world has got there yet."

This statement drips cynicism and again, does nothing useful

 

[wayToGo_]

That's true, the end position is that delta variant (if we call this prime covid) results in far less deaths now than covid did back when policy was created.

Back then the data was showing near 10% out of Italy and we rightfully slammed the door shut in panic, 10% could destroy nations.

The data has since mellowed and we should be adjusting our fears and expectations accordingly. If that means we need to consider options such as the UK where they have both high vaccinations and high natural immunity/resistance levels from widespread recovery of the virus resulting in much lower fatalities, or examples such as NJ/NY where they don't have as many vulnerable people anymore so their fatalities are down.

The primary issue is, has been and will remain that our health system isn't capable of handling a bump/surge in cases of anything.

I think the primary issue is that not all people that want a vaccination can get one. If everyone that wanted to be vaccinated was vaccinated now we'd be in a significantly better position to manage it.

The health system issues need resolving as well but I think we all know they've only become a major talking point to distract from our monumental screw up securing enough vaccines for our population.

 

[Taylor]

I think the primary issue is that not all people that want a vaccination can get one. If everyone that wanted to be vaccinated was vaccinated now we'd be in a significantly better position to manage it.

The health system issues need resolving as well but I think we all know they've only become a major talking point to distract from our monumental screw up securing enough vaccines for our population.

If only we had time prior to the vaccines to bolster training and staff for the medical system and weren't going to have to rush that once vaccine supply is resolved...

I agree, we actually could have heaps of vaccine if we are allowed to give AZ to younger people like they did in the UK. There's been an interesting little side narrative going on where it's been politically useful for AZ to not be available for younger people - even while the risks are so minute.

It's done a lot of damage towards giving people confidence to get vaccinated at all when particularly QLD has been so anti-AZ for younger people.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

If only we had time prior to the vaccines to bolster training and staff for the medical system and weren't going to have to rush that once vaccine supply is resolved...

I agree, we actually could have heaps of vaccine if we are allowed to give AZ to younger people like they did in the UK. There's been an interesting little side narrative going on where it's been politically useful for AZ to not be available for younger people - even while the risks are so minute.

It's done a lot of damage towards giving people confidence to get vaccinated at all when particularly QLD has been so anti-AZ for younger people.

Interesting personal anecdote on this.

My boss is a nearly 40 yo staunch righty (and a VERY smart person), I mentioned months ago that my family wouldnt get the AZ jab because of the clotting. He looked at me surprised and said the risk was minuet to which I reminded him that my wife/kid have a rare congenital blood clotting disorder so that 1 in a million is literally them.

Fast forward a few months and now he's doesnt want AZ for himself.

The political narrative has been so strong on AZ, even the righties dont want it anymore...

 

[Belnakor]

"I'm looking forward to getting over 80 per cent, apparently no country in the world has got there yet."

its almost like he doesn't want us to get to that point.

he is also deliberately conflating the concept of "80% of the population" and "80% of the eligible population".

We will never ever get to 80% of the population when you take into account children + people unable to get the jab due to medical issues.

secondly, there are numerous countries that have got 80% of the eligible population, ie: israel, iceland etc.

 

[Belnakor]

It's done a lot of damage towards giving people confidence to get vaccinated at all when particularly QLD has been so anti-AZ for younger people.

the chief medical officers have been put in a position they should never have been put in.

Basically, the politicians have pushed the responsibility and care of leadership onto an unelected official.

So we have looneys like the QLD woman who is telling people not to take the AZ. Or the WA one who is advocating lockdowns for 1 case. And then the flip side you have the NSW one who is happy to look at the vaccination strategy. Its a total failure of leadership.

 

[Belnakor]

What is this approach going to do in the future when people are vaccinated? Unless I'm misinformed, the vaccine has a minimal impact on spread but a MASSIVE impact on the effects. Locking down at that point is completely redundant as per NSW, locking down small areas doesnt do sh*t with Delta. Lockdown everything or dont lockdown at all.

McGowan's approach is totally against the science and history too.

Once we get vaccinated the number of cases should actually be going UP. Alot. The purpose is to reduce the harm in the community. The cases are actually irrelevant. Him saying cases are important post-vaccination problems is a real problem.

 

[Taylor]

the chief medical officers have been put in a position they should never have been put in.

Basically, the politicians have pushed the responsibility and care of leadership onto an unelected official.

So we have looneys like the QLD woman who is telling people not to take the AZ. Or the WA one who is advocating lockdowns for 1 case. And then the flip side you have the NSW one who is happy to look at the vaccination strategy. Its a total failure of leadership.

You only needed to watch the deputy CHO of NSW in the interview yesterday to see that the position is held by a politician. She managed to talk for minutes after each question without answering the questions.

The CHO would say that the medical systems the state government has built are inadequate to not have lockdown if they were independent.

 

[Purple_Turtle]

Frustrating and just reinforcing the Catch-22 which is going to stop us getting to 80% vaccinations in the first place.

McGowan has a plan for opening the WA border — but just how long will it take?

WA Premier Mark McGowan has laid out a roadmap of his own to opening the border with other states. But as Rhiannon Shine explains, some experts are concerned part of the strategy will only further delay WA's already-lagging vaccination rate.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Dockeroo]

Hard not to see the WA stance on borders causing some collateral damage to our AFL list at the end of next season in terms of retaining Vic players.
Its clear that WAs borders won’t be open for quite some time yet.

 

[Taylor]

I expect we will open early next year, so if you need any medical stuff done you should start that ball rolling now because when we are open we will have no hospital room for much else. You'll notice we don't have room for much now as it is, add on ten extra people a day turning up to ER.

Get your hips, knees, shoulders all done now. Don't wait.

 

[oldgoat]

The primary issue is, has been and will remain that our health system isn't capable of handling a bump/surge in cases of anything.
[/QUOTE]
Spot on Taylor.
This is the elephant in the room!
Prior to the arrival of this pandemic we had a health system routinely scrabbling away from the cliff edge of crisis.
Ambulance/ED ramping, winter " flu" crises, blown out waitng lists etc.
This has not been addressed with governments avoiding measures that involve big rises in recurrent spending in favour of one off PR driven election oriented stuff.
Thru luck and good management we have been given time to prepare a surge response but it is not a sustainable option as it means closing down large sections of the health system to muscle up the Covid response.
Cant do it for long nor without great cost to ongoing healthcare.
There but for lots of grace and good luck go we.
"Living with Covid" , we dont have to do that yet.
Just like we dont have to take our kids to measles parties any more.

 

[Taylor]

It's a very real possibility that the next federal election will have the ALP claiming the government want to go after Medicare while ALP controlled states are stripping back Medicare to only maybe cover emergency if you're able to get a bed because you're seriously ill enough or injured in such a way that they can x-ray, set and forget you out the door in short order.

The lesson from all of this is that politics isn't in the interests of the people when it's in league with the independent entity that is supposed to keep them accountable.

If Seven ran a little counter on the news every night that tracked every hour people spent ramped, or above the guidelines waiting period in the emergency - ticking up away every day with a count under it for non urgent surgery cancelled the situation would change really quick.

But when that data would suddenly be unavailable and then reporters suddenly have a difficult time moving around and back into WA it just isn't worth it.

If our hospital status here was treated like covid we could have gotten it fixed before covid gets here.

Everyone here needs to get their bodies fixed so they can get fit and healthy before the doors open because you will not be able to get your joints fixed outside of emergency surgery while fully vaccinated covid patients fill up the hospitals.

 

[Big Animal]

friend's a doc at children's emergency department. Said they have room (2 rooms) for 2 patients with covid. Any more, everyone else will need to be moved elsewhere. What do you reckon the chances of having more than 2 kids that are covid infected needing treatment will be when we have an outbreak. No wonder the border arrangement is as it is and is unlikely to change any time soon regardless of vaccine rates.

People can say it's my body my choice til the cows come home but from my doc friends, we are going to be in big trouble in the event of an outbreak. And that's not even including detrimental outcomes from slow or non treatment of the non-covid emergencies during an outbreak. Considering we're one truck driver doing the wrong thing away from a pretty serious outbreak that is going to make it pretty average around here.

 

[Taylor]

It's just a shame it's taken until now for things to be done about it, when it's arguably too late.

We could have had student nurses working in hospitals next year if their placement was fast tracked and funded.

 

[Bicco]

The below is very concerning.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) case numbers and statistics

This page provides updates about the current situation, latest case numbers and related information. It is updated every day by 9 pm AEST and reflects the previous 24 hours.

www.health.gov.au

Current Delta outbreak is hospitalising about 1 in 15 of those that contract the virus. From news reports appears to be killing 1 in 150, if not more.
With WA having 2.5m+, at 80% vaccination leaves 500000 unvaccinated. 1/15 leaves 30000+ hospitalisations. No healthcare system can handle that.
NSW is going to be a mess in 3 months after they open up.

 

[Taylor]

Broader global stats are at 1 to 5% hospitalisation depending on demographic. But we can't handle zero covid right now in WA, so it doesn't matter.

 

[wayToGo_]

We obviously don't hear much about it here in Perth but the problem isn't limited to WA.

NSW have restricted health staff from speaking to the media. It's an absolute mess. The Murdoch empire is trying its best to make it out like everything is under control but how long can they hide how incompetent the NSW leadership is?

Emergency response delays are just as bad in Vic. The latest Covid cases have massive ICU numbers creating a nightmare for their health system.

Queensland isn't anywhere near prepared for an increase in Covid cases and will struggle if/when numbers rise.

South Australia is struggling to deal with increased load recently.

No excuses for WA not acting earlier but it's a problem throughout Australia.

 

[poshman]

We obviously don't hear much about it here in Perth but the problem isn't limited to WA.

NSW have restricted health staff from speaking to the media. It's an absolute mess. The Murdoch empire is trying its best to make it out like everything is under control but how long can they hide how incompetent the NSW leadership is?

Emergency response delays are just as bad in Vic. The latest Covid cases have massive ICU numbers creating a nightmare for their health system.

Queensland isn't anywhere near prepared for an increase in Covid cases and will struggle if/when numbers rise.

South Australia is struggling to deal with increased load recently.

No excuses for WA not acting earlier but it's a problem throughout Australia.

It is a problem all over and as you said it doesn't excuse our Gov for its failure.

I know WA, Tassie and SA health workers who are restricted from speaking to the media. Very poor on all fronts. I expect it is the same in Vic but will be able to tell you more in a few weeks.

If that is your only metric for criticising NSW leadership... then we need to apply that to WA, VIC, TAS and SA equally. I think there are other reasons to criticise the NSW Govs leadership, I just think that this reason is very partisan given that is the status quo in many states Lib/Lab around the country.

I would say the leadership has been worse here as we have been affected as little as possible, so we should have had time to prepare and invest in solutions. Perhaps there is a plan in place, at the moment with mostly no cases we have record ramping times, people missing surgeries due to wait times (these are mostly poor people without private health insurance) and our elderly not being able to be checked for things like pneumonia due to Covid protocols.... My F.I.L (76 year old) has a negative Covid test less than ten days prior, called for an appointment but was told due to Covid they couldn't see him in person... He called three further times in the week following as he was getting worse but couldn't get an appointment at a GP due to symptoms. Ten days after his initial call I took him to emergency as he was getting worse. He had developed Pneumonia and is still recovering a month later. The lady I discussed earlier in this thread who couldn't get a simple (relatively) operation to remove a growth in her neck... has lost her voice due to almost 18 months of delays as it wasn't deemed a critical surgery... The docs are not allowed to say anything...

It was first delayed in April 2020 - I disagreed with the decision there but think that is understandable considering we (scientists/docs/pollies/populace) didn't know what was coming. It should have been rescheduled a couple of months later. They weren't able to consider rescheduling until just under a year later. If the surgery was completed any time in 2020 she would have had a 90% + chance of keeping her voice.

I hope they have a plan and deal with it all brilliantly... I haven't heard anything though.

 

[poshman]

Anyone going to comment on recent revelations that the heads of military told Biden personally and via memo to leave 2500 troops in Afghanistan and that they advised him the gov would fall?

In one of his very few interviews he said very clearly he was never told and they didn't know this would happen. When asked again if no one in the military leadership advised him he was clear and said no.

Massive failure of execution no matter if you believe they should have been there or not. If that is your point of argument don't bother as it is a completely different point. The question is - given he was advised what would happen and to leave troops there, and he pulled out so quickly and in the middle of fighting season (they struggle to fight or do much in winter - snow) and he claimed he was never told... It should be all over the news and social media given what is happening to the population there, the US citizens still there and especially to the women. To say he couldn't have known this would happen when he was clearly advised it would is very poor.

I wouldn't have thought this would be a partisan argument... I hope not.

 

[Taylor]

It reads to me like Biden got the advice, picked up the phone and said "get 'em out of there as soon as possible" and the officer on the other end of the line said "yes sir"

And that was that.

If we are using our political lenses, I think Biden was advised that since the Trump plan had the troops out earlier that any loss of US lives would be a vulnerability - so they decided to close that door by removing the troops. Ultimately the US media stopped caring about what happens to the people of Afghanistan pretty quickly - they get all this messy stuff out of the way before 2023 and Biden wears it all, Harris is kept out of the spray and then when Biden stands down she comes out clean and the democrats have cleaned house of a bunch of issues that could have been a problem for them.

 

[poshman]

It reads to me like Biden got the advice, picked up the phone and said "get 'em out of there as soon as possible" and the officer on the other end of the line said "yes sir"

And that was that.

If we are using our political lenses, I think Biden was advised that since the Trump plan had the troops out earlier that any loss of US lives would be a vulnerability - so they decided to close that door by removing the troops. Ultimately the US media stopped caring about what happens to the people of Afghanistan pretty quickly - they get all this messy stuff out of the way before 2023 and Biden wears it all, Harris is kept out of the spray and then when Biden stands down she comes out clean and the democrats have cleaned house of a bunch of issues that could have been a problem for them.

Yeah I can see most of that... except the trump side of things. Biden has walked back every other trump plan so it is not like he has a history of sticking with another administrations decisions.

The focus for me though after years of hearing how much of a liar and incompetent Trump was... Biden has clearly not followed advice.. people have suffered... he then denied multiple times he got the advice and now it has come out he definitely was warned that the outcome would be what it has been. Surely this shows lying and incompetence?

 

[Taylor]

Yeah I can see most of that... except the trump side of things. Biden has walked back every other trump plan so it is not like he has a history of sticking with another administrations decisions.

The focus for me though after years of hearing how much of a liar and incompetent Trump was... Biden has clearly not followed advice.. people have suffered... he then denied multiple times he got the advice and now it has come out he definitely was warned that the outcome would be what it has been. Surely this shows lying and incompetence?

I think it shows the colour jacket the primary avenues of media in the US to the people and the outside world are wearing.

Take the vaccine for example. Big fuss made about the US not having enough, needing more, Biden buys more, big celebration. Vaccines administered to US matches the number ordered by Trump. Biden donates millions to other nations, big celebration.

The southern border being such a disaster area that the federal authorities banned the use of drone cameras, as a public safety issue, so the news needed to borrow the local police helicopter to show the extent of the problem - meanwhile the same people who were crying at fences at the border when the republican was in office now don't even notice the multiples of the previous scale the problem now is under a democrat... well, I think it's clear for anyone paying attention that it's all just theater and as long as the media don't care to make it your fault then it's not a problem.

It's all a game and if when one side is at the wheel every single thing is a big deal but when the other team is driving the people holding power to account is quiet enough that going after Biden for Afghanistan is a surprising but welcome aberration then it's not healthy.

Politicians DO NOT care about issues. Activists do. Politicians will use activists to get elected when it serves their purpose.

You seen anything about BLM lately? They'll be back around 2024 when they are of use again.
They use people and issues to keep themselves in power so they can make the rules to keep them and their friends and family rich.