Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

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Clems Knee

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So how do we rationalise that position that 2 doses, which 90%+ of people who currently have omicron have had, but get no protection from it are doing so well in spite of their no protection?

How do we balance the two?

Where's the logical leap from the 2 shots doesn't protect and it looks like we don't need much protection to better get more protection?

Pfizer is happy to announce that they will have a new product to sell you that reduces the risk of omicron from almost zero to almost zero.

2 doses provides protection from serious disease but doesn’t do as good a job at protecting from transmission.
3 doses provides better protection from serious disease and does a much better job at preventing transmission.

Generally, there has always been a distinction between the ability of a vaccine to prevent disease and its ability to also prevent transmission. When the Covid vaccines were being tested, that was a major talking point.

I don’t understand why you are always more ready to latch on to a conspiracy rather than the obvious.
 

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Taylor

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2 doses provides protection from serious disease but doesn’t do as good a job at protecting from transmission.
3 doses provided much better protection from serious disease and does a much better job at preventing transmission.

Generally, there has always been a distinction between the ability of a vaccine to prevent disease and its ability to also prevent transmission. When the Covid vaccines were being tested, that was a major talking point.

I don’t understand why you are always more ready to latch on to a conspiracy rather than the obvious.

The actual people talking and saying two doses gives little if any protection against omicron but three doses does when speaking about severity of the illness and the actual data is no conspiracy.

We are talking about a very specific example here and you hit me with the dogma.

Maybe it's just time to admit the Pfizer executive doesn't know what they are talking about? Maybe they are just trying to push their product?

The question that ends the pandemic is what is the acceptable hospitalisation and death rate per infection, what disease does it need to be comparable to for us to decide it's over and we get on living as we were before.

Kinda looks like we are there, based on current data.
 

Kwality

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So how do we rationalise that position that 2 doses, which 90%+ of people who currently have omicron have had, but get no protection from it are doing so well in spite of their no protection?

How do we balance the two?

Where's the logical leap from the 2 shots doesn't protect and it looks like we don't need much protection to better get more protection?

Pfizer is happy to announce that they will have a new product to sell you that reduces the risk of omicron from almost zero to almost zero.

Where does logic fit in to this pandemic?
IMHO, using vaccination as a placebo is past its use by date. Now more harm than good.
I posted earlier that pre Xmas a group of front line workers had a Xmas drink - the only person not to test positive in following days had the 3rd jab.
 

Taylor

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Yes, almost all of them though immediately have advanced age - so it's more like three extras.

The overwhelming one in younger people is obesity, but they are far less commonly featured in the deaths even though the rate of obesity in advanced ages is far lower - presumably because of their earlier mortality.
 

freo99

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right all these billionaires are held responsible for their actions, corruption has been tackled pretty effectively there. white collar criminals stealing hundreds of millions are actually punished, how terrible!
if only our current governments faced the same!

ETA wish someone would shut up Elon Musk, please Xi get to it
Can you let us know which University you work at, for future reference with education
 

poshman

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You've cast off the words of the person providing the product to choose a source that backs you up. I ask again, what do you think he was actually saying in that interview?

The Pfizer person, what were they actually saying? There is video, there are quotes. Let's not even get into the idea that their own data doesn't show the effectiveness of a 4th shot yet some nations are deploying those "on medical advice".

What is that person actually saying?

What does:

Actually mean?

As has been shown in this thread on other issues. Clem only looks for that which backs his previously held opinion.

This is the CEO of the vaccine manufacturer, in his own words...

They are literally trying to make a new vaccine for omnicron, again based on the words of the CEO.
 

salim malik

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The actual people talking and saying two doses gives little if any protection against omicron but three doses does when speaking about severity of the illness and the actual data is no conspiracy.

We are talking about a very specific example here and you hit me with the dogma.

Maybe it's just time to admit the Pfizer executive doesn't know what they are talking about? Maybe they are just trying to push their product?

The question that ends the pandemic is what is the acceptable hospitalisation and death rate per infection, what disease does it need to be comparable to for us to decide it's over and we get on living as we were before.

Kinda looks like we are there, based on current data.

Diseases that have been eliminated by herd immunity is a big fat zero. Nil , none .
Disease eliminated by tracing and vaccination is one and that's smallpox but disease slowed and partially eliminated by vaccination is a long list.
Anti vaxxers are nutters who refuse to accept medical science and history.
They are in the same category as flat earthers and climate sceptics.
 

poshman

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if you could point me to a better de-radicalisation attempt in the world i would like to see it! id say with certainty it is much more humane than that of the United States attempts
you dont really believe that social credit crap do you? or do you just take everything APSI says as gospel?

and why shouldnt businesses be owned by the state? they should be made to adhere to the government whose role it is to ensure the betterment of society, dont let facebook and other massive conglomerates control your society

Oh dear... are you serious or trolling for the laughs?

Are you referring to the forced enslavement, systematic rape, mutilation, sterilisation, murder and workers camps for a Muslim community as de-radicalisation?

In what way has the US done the same to Muslims?
 

poshman

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2 doses provides protection from serious disease but doesn’t do as good a job at protecting from transmission.
3 doses provides better protection from serious disease and does a much better job at preventing transmission.

Generally, there has always been a distinction between the ability of a vaccine to prevent disease and its ability to also prevent transmission. When the Covid vaccines were being tested, that was a major talking point.

I don’t understand why you are always more ready to latch on to a conspiracy rather than the obvious.

Taylors original post said nothing about the booster - although the CEO did. She simply stated what the CEO said which was that 2 doses etc etc.

Saying that and that the third booster is needed arent contradictory.

I don't understand why two things cannot be true and when you argue something do you feel the need to attack the poster or use words like conspiracy theory to add weight to your arguments.

To be clear:

CEO said 2 shots = not that effective against omnicron
CEO also said booster = better

*both statements shortened for time but you get the gist.

Could you not have replied:

He does say that 2 shots is ineffective (just for the omnicron part) but that the booster helps.

Is that not what he said Clem?
 

Taylor

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Diseases that have been eliminated by herd immunity is a big fat zero. Nil , none .
Disease eliminated by tracing and vaccination is one and that's smallpox but disease slowed and partially eliminated by vaccination is a long list.
Anti vaxxers are nutters who refuse to accept medical science and history.
They are in the same category as flat earthers and climate sceptics.

I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of diseases that have been relegated to the list of those not posing a problem to society have been due to natural immunity and viral evolution. You're seeing it play out before your eyes right now.

And the Earth is flat. It's 70% water and almost none of it is carbonated. *thank you Cesoir
 
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poshman

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Diseases that have been eliminated by herd immunity is a big fat zero. Nil , none .
Disease eliminated by tracing and vaccination is one and that's smallpox but disease slowed and partially eliminated by vaccination is a long list.
Anti vaxxers are nutters who refuse to accept medical science and history.
They are in the same category as flat earthers and climate sceptics.

You didn't answer one of her questions, and no one mentioned herd immunity or at least it wasn't mentioned in that post.

Try to interact with the questions instead of flinging about terms meant to undermine.

And yes, I am all for Vaccines, do think flat earthers are misled and depending on your definition of climate skeptics, agree that it is at least a very difficult position to hold.
 

Taylor

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Taylors original post said nothing about the booster - although the CEO did. She simply stated what the CEO said which was that 2 doses etc etc.

Saying that and that the third booster is needed arent contradictory.

I don't understand why two things cannot be true and when you argue something do you feel the need to attack the poster or use words like conspiracy theory to add weight to your arguments.

To be clear:

CEO said 2 shots = not that effective against omnicron
CEO also said booster = better

*both statements shortened for time but you get the gist.

Could you not have replied:

He does say that 2 shots is ineffective (just for the omnicron part) but that the booster helps.

Is that not what he said Clem?

I did go one step further and suggest that if the two doses currently being praised for the low impact of omicron are claimed to be providing little to no benefit then perhaps we don't need the third shot at all, since we are doing very well against it with two useless doses.

The next step is that only the vulnerable should be taking the third if they want it and we certainly shouldn't be kicking people out of work for something like that.
 

salim malik

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You didn't answer one of her questions, and no one mentioned herd immunity or at least it wasn't mentioned in that post.

Try to interact with the questions instead of flinging about terms meant to undermine.

And yes, I am all for Vaccines, do think flat earthers are misled and depending on your definition of climate skeptics, agree that it is at least a very difficult position to hold.

Taylor mentioned not needing a booster because omicron was ineffective and those who received omicron have managed to avoid the disease with out a suitable vaccine. A dangerous statement not backed up with any data.
I don't agree with Taylor's opinion and pointed out the facts on eliminating disease with out the assistance of medical science.
Since when is not agreeing undermining.
Taylor's views are well known through her numerous posts. .Taylor doesnt need help from you.Taylor is more than capable.
 

Clems Knee

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Taylors original post said nothing about the booster - although the CEO did. She simply stated what the CEO said which was that 2 doses etc etc.

Saying that and that the third booster is needed arent contradictory.

I don't understand why two things cannot be true and when you argue something do you feel the need to attack the poster or use words like conspiracy theory to add weight to your arguments.

To be clear:

CEO said 2 shots = not that effective against omnicron
CEO also said booster = better

*both statements shortened for time but you get the gist.

Could you not have replied:

He does say that 2 shots is ineffective (just for the omnicron part) but that the booster helps.

Is that not what he said Clem?
I did go one step further and suggest that if the two doses currently being praised for the low impact of omicron are claimed to be providing little to no benefit then perhaps we don't need the third shot at all, since we are doing very well against it with two useless doses.

The next step is that only the vulnerable should be taking the third if they want it and we certainly shouldn't be kicking people out of work for something like that.

well,Posh unlike you I read Taylor’s post and saw her unreasonable extrapolation, as she reiterated here. The leap defies logic.
 

Taylor

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Taylor mentioned not needing a booster because omicron was ineffective and those who received omicron have managed to avoid the disease with out a suitable vaccine. A dangerous statement not backed up with any data.
I don't agree with Taylor's opinion and pointed out the facts on eliminating disease with out the assistance of medical science.
Since when is not agreeing undermining.
Taylor's views are well known through her numerous posts. .Taylor doesnt need help from you.Taylor is more than capable.

No, I presented the evidence that PFIZER says the current two doses don't offer much if any protection from omicron and then that we are doing exceptionally well on the back of zero vaccine protection.
 

dockertor

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No, I presented the evidence that PFIZER says the current two doses don't offer much if any protection from omicron and then that we are doing exceptionally well on the back of zero vaccine protection.
Is he not talking about protection from infection? A different matter to protection against serious disease and death which I understand the current vaccines still provide significant protection.
 

Taylor

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Is he not talking about protection from infection? A different matter to protection against serious disease and death which I understand the current vaccines still provide significant protection.
He said two doses offers little to no protection but three doses offers great protection from hospitalisation and death.
 

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