Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

Remove this Banner Ad

Snuffaluphagus

Moderator
Sep 10, 2015
10,411
33,636
AFL Club
Fremantle
Agree with Cesoir you lot are 'discussing' things that are all true
A) Big pharma are obviously very keen for everyone to get a booster, are actively trying to sell that idea and arent doing it because they care about your well-being...
B) Boosters offer some additional protection, I'd love for someone to provide an independent, peer-reviewed study saying just how much extra protection you get from a booster vs just two shots.
 

dockertor

Club Legend
Nov 12, 2002
1,566
261
Down the pub
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Fremantle
being...
B) Boosters offer some additional protection, I'd love for someone to provide an independent, peer-reviewed study saying just how much extra protection you get from a booster vs just two shots.
Whilst I cant link the study the article that Taylor linked does go on to say


"The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines – both of which have been distributed in Australia – are only about 10 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic infection from Omicron 20 weeks after the second dose, a study from the UK Health Security Agency found.

While two doses still provide good protection against severe illness, the study found that booster shots increased protection against symptomatic infection to 75 per cent.

Pfizer claims its own studies show a third dose of its vaccine produces a 25-fold increase in neutralising antibodies against the new strain."
 

Snuffaluphagus

Moderator
Sep 10, 2015
10,411
33,636
AFL Club
Fremantle
Whilst I cant link the study the article that Taylor linked does go on to say


"The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines – both of which have been distributed in Australia – are only about 10 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic infection from Omicron 20 weeks after the second dose, a study from the UK Health Security Agency found.

While two doses still provide good protection against severe illness, the study found that booster shots increased protection against symptomatic infection to 75 per cent.

Pfizer claims its own studies show a third dose of its vaccine produces a 25-fold increase in neutralising antibodies against the new strain."
Cheers, I'll completely disregard the Pfizer own study but that UK one is pretty encouraging
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Mags98

Team Captain
Mar 16, 2018
418
341
AFL Club
Fremantle
Oh dear... are you serious or trolling for the laughs?

Are you referring to the forced enslavement, systematic rape, mutilation, sterilisation, murder and workers camps for a Muslim community as de-radicalisation?

In what way has the US done the same to Muslims?
if you want to take things claimed by radio free asia and a genuine believer in the coming rapture who believes he was chosen by god to bring down china, or a far right wing religious cult that is against inter racial couples then by all means go ahead. its pretty crazy how in a country with over a billion people and probably more cameras than that, not one video has been shown of these murder camps huh? nor is there any massive refugee crisis which would be impossible to hide? do you know how massive these camps would have to be, it would be impossible to hide in todays age, simply eating up cold war era propaganda is pretty naive. thats not to say there hasnt been some atrocities in these camps but it is in no way a state directed attempt at any of that, it quite literally makes no sense to assume so. Uyghurs themselves were excluded from the one child policy years ago, but all of a sudden they want to kill them all?

youre joking right? in what way has the US NOT done that? why would they suddenly be deciding to be the saviours of muslims after demonising them for the past 3 decades and destroying the middle east? use some common sense and critical thinking yeh

follow the beats of the war drums all you want, but theyve been played pretty regularly over the decades by the US and have more often then not proven to be false
 

poshman

Premiership Player
Oct 13, 2006
3,101
3,535
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
CFC, San Antonio Spurs
if you want to take things claimed by radio free asia and a genuine believer in the coming rapture who believes he was chosen by god to bring down china, or a far right wing religious cult that is against inter racial couples then by all means go ahead. its pretty crazy how in a country with over a billion people and probably more cameras than that, not one video has been shown of these murder camps huh? nor is there any massive refugee crisis which would be impossible to hide? do you know how massive these camps would have to be, it would be impossible to hide in todays age, simply eating up cold war era propaganda is pretty naive. thats not to say there hasnt been some atrocities in these camps but it is in no way a state directed attempt at any of that, it quite literally makes no sense to assume so. Uyghurs themselves were excluded from the one child policy years ago, but all of a sudden they want to kill them all?

youre joking right? in what way has the US NOT done that? why would they suddenly be deciding to be the saviours of muslims after demonising them for the past 3 decades and destroying the middle east? use some common sense and critical thinking yeh

follow the beats of the war drums all you want, but theyve been played pretty regularly over the decades by the US and have more often then not proven to be false

ok... so the whole thing is a made up anti china conspiracy?
 

Big Animal

Club Legend
Nov 29, 2011
2,909
4,644
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Cockburn Doctors
The last part scares the sh*t out of me. - understandable. Early variants have killed 5.5 mill (the Economist last week reported nearly 19 mill if you look at additional deaths/country compared to 2019)
Again, what you say is like the East Coast have been saying, Just let it rip. - No, it will rip regardless of what you do. Delta is extremely infectious and omicron is apparently 5x more infectious again. You don't get the choice to play it both ways.
Look at what that has done to supplies all over the country. - because people with no symptoms are required to quarantine at home for 5 days.
Imagine when with your let it rip policy ,start to affect our manufacturers, bread , milk, meat, etc etc etc. - see above
It sounds a bit like you have been reading from the Hands on Faith healers guide to corona, - no, I have a PhD in this area from Dept of Medicine at UWA. I worked with viruses for many years. I am currently working with top European research groups on alternative covid treatments. I am just pragmatic with a dash of hope as most scientists are.
Heaven fckn help us. - well it's getting better not worse, so you prayers appear to be working.
 
Last edited:

poshman

Premiership Player
Oct 13, 2006
3,101
3,535
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
CFC, San Antonio Spurs
well,Posh unlike you I read Taylor’s post and saw her unreasonable extrapolation, as she reiterated here. The leap defies logic.

Fair enough - the conspiracy theory stuff still wasn't needed and doesn't help debate.

I missed the point Taylor made after, which she has mentioned since.

I am not sure I agree with her but am also not sure it defies logic given the stats from South Africa. Not that I know or even have an opinion either way at the moment, but if we are to go from stats in SA, it would at least seem that getting omnicron would seem to be the best of a bad situation. And this isn't saying let it rip etc as I have said I don't know enough to have an opinion.
 

poshman

Premiership Player
Oct 13, 2006
3,101
3,535
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
CFC, San Antonio Spurs
Taylor mentioned not needing a booster because omicron was ineffective and those who received omicron have managed to avoid the disease with out a suitable vaccine. A dangerous statement not backed up with any data.
I don't agree with Taylor's opinion and pointed out the facts on eliminating disease with out the assistance of medical science.
Since when is not agreeing undermining.
Taylor's views are well known through her numerous posts. .Taylor doesnt need help from you.Taylor is more than capable.

She sure can - I was simply saying putting in all the personal attacks wasn't needed as you have done here.

I am not sure I understand your first sentence so cannot reply.

Just thought you could have the discussion without the added extra personal attacks or reference to flat earth or anti vaxxers or climate skeptics etc as that stuff doesn't help the conversation.

Anyway - I have been off here for a couple of weeks, and will be off again.

My main point when I say this stuff isn't to defend any particular poster, it is to encourage robust, thoughtful discussion. I don't think that can happen when people use language to attack another or undermine them with phrases like 'conspiracy, Anti vaxxer, flat earther' etc. I find your above post far more helpful in understanding your point of view.
 

poshman

Premiership Player
Oct 13, 2006
3,101
3,535
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
CFC, San Antonio Spurs
what were the WMDs or the fetuses in test tubes?

ok - at least I know where you stand. I believe the opposite when it comes to what China is doing but that is fine.

In your opinion would you prefer a China style or system of government as opposed to what we have currently?
 

Mags98

Team Captain
Mar 16, 2018
418
341
AFL Club
Fremantle
ok - at least I know where you stand. I believe the opposite when it comes to what China is doing but that is fine.

In your opinion would you prefer a China style or system of government as opposed to what we have currently?
what makes you think the opposite though? like how often do you have to be lied to about the wests adversaries before you stop swallowing it? you can not deny they have a benefit in lying about a new country challenging americas hegemony

when i compare what both have achieved over the past few decades and where theyve come from i think the answers pretty obvious. i believe chinas system allows for longer term thinking and while australia has arguably stagnated in the past decade china has come through leaps and bounds and continues to invest into the rest of the world as well

results > vague ideas of 'freedom' imo
 

poshman

Premiership Player
Oct 13, 2006
3,101
3,535
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
CFC, San Antonio Spurs
what makes you think the opposite though? like how often do you have to be lied to about the wests adversaries before you stop swallowing it? you can not deny they have a benefit in lying about a new country challenging americas hegemony

when i compare what both have achieved over the past few decades and where theyve come from i think the answers pretty obvious. i believe chinas system allows for longer term thinking and while australia has arguably stagnated in the past decade china has come through leaps and bounds and continues to invest into the rest of the world as well

results > vague ideas of 'freedom' imo

I can agree about longer term thinking but not about anything else. There isn't much point in continuing the discussion if you truly believe living under a chinese regime would be preferable to what we have here.

I appreciate you being willing to answer the questions though.
 

Mags98

Team Captain
Mar 16, 2018
418
341
AFL Club
Fremantle
I can agree about longer term thinking but not about anything else. There isn't much point in continuing the discussion if you truly believe living under a chinese regime would be preferable to what we have here.

I appreciate you being willing to answer the questions though.
like i said, whats your issue with it? i will address it as im sure like most you havent often been shown the opposite side to reporting on china
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Dockeroo

Premiership Player
Nov 1, 2019
3,747
8,275
AFL Club
Fremantle
I’m not sure why people are talking about eliminating covid. I’m sorry to say that ship sailed probably about 10th Jan 2020.
covid will be endemic somewhere in the world in some form for the indefinite future I would say. Hopefully very minor and no worse than the flu.as for the booster debate - it was nice to see some sense at last on the issue of indefinite boosters from one of the leaders of the European Medicines Association today. Israel really have been reckless giving 4th shots to their people. Natural immunity has a big part to play in our exit from this pandemic.

Covid-19: Fourth booster vaccine in doubt amid fears of overloading immune system


https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...rs-of-overloading-immune-system-41230573.html
 

anchor man

Club Legend
Apr 6, 2001
2,140
1,285
Success WA
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Dynamic Dockers &South Fr
I’m not sure why people are talking about eliminating covid. I’m sorry to say that ship sailed probably about 10th Jan 2020.
covid will be endemic somewhere in the world in some form for the indefinite future I would say. Hopefully very minor and no worse than the flu.as for the booster debate - it was nice to see some sense at last on the issue of indefinite boosters from one of the leaders of the European Medicines Association today. Israel really have been reckless giving 4th shots to their people. Natural immunity has a big part to play in our exit from this pandemic.

Covid-19: Fourth booster vaccine in doubt amid fears of overloading immune system


https://www.independent.ie/irish-ne...rs-of-overloading-immune-system-41230573.html
No, that ship arrived on that date. :smilev1: :smilev1: :smilev1: :smilev1: ;);)
 

bushchook

All Australian
Dec 9, 2018
715
1,286
AFL Club
Fremantle
I'd argue that the overwhelming majority of diseases that have been relegated to the list of those not posing a problem to society have been due to natural immunity and viral evolution. You're seeing it play out before your eyes right now.

You are correct, but at the same time that process can take centuries, if not millennia. Herpes is a good example of a virus that has evolved to be no longer life-threatening to the hosts. All viruses will eventually do this, after all the virus cannot survive without the host. The issue is how many deaths are you willing to live with while you wait for this to happen.

Another example (although less data available) is the Spanish Flu epidemic. There were no vaccines available at the time, and the virus killed millions. There was no massive scientific breakthrough either. All that happened is that the virus eventually just evolved to be less harmful and now is something that we just live with every year as one of many seasonal flus. (e.g. the 2009 Swine Flu was the exact same virus that caused the Spanish Flu, but caused far fewer deaths).

The issue with Covid vaccines is that, like all SARS/Corona/Flu vaccines, they are nowhere near 100% effective. So they will never achieve eradication. And it's not really possible for them to ever do this with how quickly these types of viruses evolve.

The latest strain has shown to be very mild and the next evolution of it will be milder still. It now becomes a question of how long people are willing to keep sacrificing their jobs and freedom of movement to avoid what is basically the common cold.
 

Mags98

Team Captain
Mar 16, 2018
418
341
AFL Club
Fremantle
Yeah, it tells you they'll disappear your family and rape your wife and kids if you don't say you approve.

What an evil and stupid post.
right so any evidence of the people actually supporting their government is actually in fact evidence that their government is soooo evil? you are beyond indoctrinated mate
 

Bicco

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2013
4,427
6,386
Hobart
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
East Fremantle, Socceroos
You are correct, but at the same time that process can take centuries, if not millennia. Herpes is a good example of a virus that has evolved to be no longer life-threatening to the hosts. All viruses will eventually do this, after all the virus cannot survive without the host. The issue is how many deaths are you willing to live with while you wait for this to happen.

Another example (although less data available) is the Spanish Flu epidemic. There were no vaccines available at the time, and the virus killed millions. There was no massive scientific breakthrough either. All that happened is that the virus eventually just evolved to be less harmful and now is something that we just live with every year as one of many seasonal flus. (e.g. the 2009 Swine Flu was the exact same virus that caused the Spanish Flu, but caused far fewer deaths).

The issue with Covid vaccines is that, like all SARS/Corona/Flu vaccines, they are nowhere near 100% effective. So they will never achieve eradication. And it's not really possible for them to ever do this with how quickly these types of viruses evolve.

The latest strain has shown to be very mild and the next evolution of it will be milder still. It now becomes a question of how long people are willing to keep sacrificing their jobs and freedom of movement to avoid what is basically the common cold.
Great post. We’ve never had a flu vaccine that can eradicate the virus, but merely lessen its effects.
The last paragraph is the one interesting one from a public messaging perspective. Im currently in the back room, working from home, with one of the mildest colds I’ve ever had. The vaccines + a new variant means what I’m experiencing is (very fortunately) nothing like the severe COVID the world has dealt with for the past 2 years.
How that message gets out and how the public reacts to it will be really interesting.
 

TheLastCall

Club Legend
Sep 24, 2010
2,003
1,761
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
You are correct, but at the same time that process can take centuries, if not millennia. Herpes is a good example of a virus that has evolved to be no longer life-threatening to the hosts. All viruses will eventually do this, after all the virus cannot survive without the host. The issue is how many deaths are you willing to live with while you wait for this to happen.

Another example (although less data available) is the Spanish Flu epidemic. There were no vaccines available at the time, and the virus killed millions. There was no massive scientific breakthrough either. All that happened is that the virus eventually just evolved to be less harmful and now is something that we just live with every year as one of many seasonal flus. (e.g. the 2009 Swine Flu was the exact same virus that caused the Spanish Flu, but caused far fewer deaths).

The issue with Covid vaccines is that, like all SARS/Corona/Flu vaccines, they are nowhere near 100% effective. So they will never achieve eradication. And it's not really possible for them to ever do this with how quickly these types of viruses evolve.

The latest strain has shown to be very mild and the next evolution of it will be milder still. It now becomes a question of how long people are willing to keep sacrificing their jobs and freedom of movement to avoid what is basically the common cold.
Unfortunately Omicron it is not always mild. And 100k cases over east is causing more issues than lockdowns.

Yes some get Omicron as mild case, if your not vaccinated it won't be as mild. I know people who had omicron and it was horrible, not mild at all, they recovered and were double vaxed. It is still much more virulent than the common cold. Long Covid is still as issue.
 

Dockeroo

Premiership Player
Nov 1, 2019
3,747
8,275
AFL Club
Fremantle
Great post. We’ve never had a flu vaccine that can eradicate the virus, but merely lessen its effects.
The last paragraph is the one interesting one from a public messaging perspective. Im currently in the back room, working from home, with one of the mildest colds I’ve ever had. The vaccines + a new variant means what I’m experiencing is (very fortunately) nothing like the severe COVID the world has dealt with for the past 2 years.
How that message gets out and how the public reacts to it will be really interesting.
When the establishment has spent the last 2 years convincing everyone that it’s a killer virus and chasing covid zero and donut days (surely one of the most irritating phrases to become mainstream in recent times?) at all costs, it’s pretty difficult to wake up one day and say “oh actually we don’t need to worry so much anymore. It’s a common cold, it’s endemic so off your go and get on with life”
 

Bicco

Premiership Player
Jun 23, 2013
4,427
6,386
Hobart
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
East Fremantle, Socceroos
When the establishment has spent the last 2 years convincing everyone that it’s a killer virus and chasing covid zero and donut days (surely one of the most irritating phrases to become mainstream in recent times?) at all costs, it’s pretty difficult to wake up one day and say “oh actually we don’t need to worry so much anymore. It’s a common cold, it’s endemic so off your go and get on with life”
Totally. It's this variant that seems to be the difference though, plus we're all vaccinated now. Clearly COVID has killed millions so there will be a lot of apprehension around accepting that we may be nearing the end of the pandemic.
 

TheLastCall

Club Legend
Sep 24, 2010
2,003
1,761
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
Totally. It's this variant that seems to be the difference though, plus we're all vaccinated now. Clearly COVID has killed millions so there will be a lot of apprehension around accepting that we may be nearing the end of the pandemic.
Unfortunately Omnicom won't be the end of the pandemic. More variants are appearing all the time, until Africa is vaccinated and most of the third world this will keep going. Yes Omnicom is a game changer, but not the magic bullet.
 

Taylor

Community Leader
Jul 16, 2009
57,858
68,127
Perth
AFL Club
Fremantle
In order for a new variant to take over the majority of cases it will need to be easier to transmit between people and/or less likely to be noticed when contagious so that external controls don't result it the end of it's propagation.

That means we need it to be about the most infectious disease ever and or with such low level of symptoms or no symptoms that cases aren't identified and isolated. The data on reinfection is extremely low numbers of people are infected a second time, as in under 1% based off the November 2021 data - so a new variant is trying to take a foothold in a system where omicron already has a foothold and people who have caught one most likely won't catch the other.

That's why people like Dr Coatsworth are referring to it as the end of the pandemic.

It will become something that cycles around the world with the usual flus and colds until it is unable to gain new infections faster than it has infections ending the life cycle.
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Remove this Banner Ad