Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

[tacopavlich]

Yes and no - there is a lot of concern and some censorship of any literature or studies that show anything negative outcomes wise when it comes to trans.

It is good you acknowledge there are not long term studies to reference as that would indicate that the matter has not been settled for decades as claimed.

Psychology is a science, there is no censorship. I have read studies that hypothesize female gender roles are innate through evolutionary pressure, do you think the scary radical left would be happy about this? By censorship you mean lacking of studies that support your existing position of bigotry.

I referenced differences between cross sectional and longitudinal studies because factually Taylor made a generalization that wasn't supported. But it has little bearing on what I'm saying.

 

[poshman]

Psychology is a science, there is no censorship. I have read studies that hypothesize female gender roles are innate through evolutionary pressure, do you think the scary radical left would be happy about this? By censorship you mean lacking of studies that support your existing position of bigotry.

I references differences between cross sectional and longitudinal studies because factually Taylor made a generalization that wasn't supported. But it has little bearing on what I'm saying.

There you go again - calling someone a bigot because you are making a claim they disagree with. So boring.

If you believe there is no censorship in science you are either choosing to be unaware or being dishonest. From social science through to medicine a combination of politics, funding and activism has censored science throughout history.

Do you believe there are 70+ genders?

 

[Spirit Level]

Perth Lord Mayor Basil Zempilas under fire over 'repugnant, bigoted' transgender comments

I'm never one to defend Basil won't continue to do so after this.

But I mean, he wasn't wrong

 

[wayToGo_]

To change the subject - predictions - hope and surprised

Prediction: Trump wins electoral and popular is within 500k either way. Retain majority in senate but house remains Democrat.

Hope: Trump wins electoral and popular vote. Senate remains republican. House won’t change sadly although Pelosi and Ilhan losing their seats would be a dream.

Surprised: Biden wins - Harris takes over within 12 months and the media covers it in full. We know that won’t happen.

I'm genuinely curious why anyone hopes Trump wins? I've been trying to get my head around what he's actually achieved (not what he says he has) for 4 years in office and I've come up with very little. Of course I expected them to be relatively poor on health, education etc but economically he's been a disaster as well - and I'm talking pre Covid. When you remove all of the media BS on both sides and look at the raw data it all points to an appalling performance economically and socially. I'm pretty centred in my political views so I am honestly fairly open minded - I've just come up with nothing when trying to find evidence supporting those who think a second term of Trump would be a good thing.

 

[tacopavlich]

There you go again - calling someone a bigot because you are making a claim they disagree with. So boring.

If you believe there is no censorship in science you are either choosing to be unaware or being dishonest. From social science through to medicine a combination of politics, funding and activism has censored science throughout history.

Do you believe there are 70+ genders?

It was mostly you hoping for Trump to win that made me firmly believe you're a bigot than just your position in your argument with me. It's also very boring for me to argue with someone about psychology that apparently knows little about it.

Of course political forces have an effect. It's the reason why homosexuality was pathologized as a disorder in the DSM in the first place. The difference is the evidence base that supports gender affirmation is staggering. If you think the radical left fudge these numbers to support an agenda then you really don't know how academia works.

I believe gender is socially constructed based on culture and it changes and evolves. the hetero binary of 2 genders is specifically a western concept but isn't universal. Gender is like language, while it has rules it is never in a fixed state. There could be 2 genders or 70+, does not matter.

 

[poshman]

It was mostly you hoping for Trump to win that made me firmly believe you're a bigot than just your position in your argument with me. It's also very boring for me to argue with someone about psychology that apparently knows little about it.

Of course political forces have an effect. It's the reason why homosexuality was pathologized as a disorder in the DSM in the first place. The difference is the evidence base that supports gender affirmation is staggering. If you think the radical left fudge these numbers to support an agenda then you really don't know how academia works.

I believe gender is socially constructed based on culture and it changes and evolves. the hetero binary of 2 genders is specifically a western concept but isn't universal. Gender is like language, while it has rules it is never in a fixed state. There could be 2 genders or 70+, does not matter.

Re: Trump - I see my support of him in this election as the best thing possible for all people especially LGBT or any other minority. The extreme socialist agenda has me, someone very centre and centre left or right on a range of issues very passionate that he wins.

Socialism has never worked. Has killed millions -and more than any other political system and has never worked. That one issue is enough for me. I wouldn’t have voted Trump in 16. Would have voted Obama in 8 but not 12. Would vote Trump now.

How is my belief that Trump is better than socialism a bigoted one if historically it is the best protection for minorities and against discrimination that the poor, weak or marginalised need.

As to Psychology - I was just thinking that you know very little or have sat under teaching in an echo chamber as many uni students sadly now do.

You are now saying academia is affected by outside pressure. After asserting it wasn’t. I am well aware of how academia works having a masters in two separate fields of studies and having lectured in Australia, the UK, Malaysia and the US.

 

[Bigger]

To change the subject - predictions - hope and surprised

Prediction: Trump wins electoral and popular is within 500k either way. Retain majority in senate but house remains Democrat.

Hope: Trump wins electoral and popular vote. Senate remains republican. House won’t change sadly although Pelosi and Ilhan losing their seats would be a dream.

Surprised: Biden wins - Harris takes over within 12 months and the media covers it in full. We know that won’t happen.

What the actual *? The amount of rightwing Freo people this thread has uncovered has shocked and kind of upset me. My fault for how unchecked my solipsism has become, I guess.

Trump may win the electoral college but he will never win the popular vote. He is the last hurrah of a doomed and dying breed and only something more than the answer to a trivia question because the GOP are shameless rorters of electoral boundaries and self-serving abusers of constitutional principles drafted by gentlemen farmers who thought owning people was a cool idea.

Their days are numbered. The Overton window has shifted for all time to the left. Once the boomers die, that will just leave the bluecollar rednecks and they are more socially liberal than they realise.

Wallace Shawn has said all this best - Trump is where he is because he has made it easy for the greedy and weak and venal to relax into their shittiness*. The rest of us actually still want to strive for better.


* https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/10/27/election-developments-since-my-birth/

"Trump has liberated a lot of people from the last vestiges of the Sermon on the Mount. A lot of people turn out to have been sick and tired of pretending to be good. The fact that the leader of one of our two parties—the party, in fact, that has for many decades represented what was normal, acceptable, and respectable—was not ashamed to reveal his own selfishness, was not ashamed to reveal his own indifference to the suffering of others, was not even ashamed to reveal his own cheerful enjoyment of cruelty…all of this helped people to feel that they no longer needed to be ashamed of those qualities in themselves either. They didn’t need to feel bad because they didn’t care about other people."

 

[tacopavlich]

As to Psychology - I was just thinking that you know very little or have sat under teaching in an echo chamber as many uni students sadly now do.

You are now saying academia is affected by outside pressure. After asserting it wasn’t. I am well aware of how academia works having a masters in two separate fields of studies and having lectured in Australia, the UK, Malaysia and the US.

That's what I meant in my very first post, with these types of discussions people enter them with preconceived positions based on ignorance and hold them strongly regardless of the evidence. What ever I reference to you, scientific study or not you have a reason up your sleeve why it's not valid. It's such a waste of time tbh, and why trans people like me throw our arms up in the air and get sick of these arguments. It's exhausting, and people on the right shrug and act surprised why we are sick of your s**t.

I'm trans, and I am firmly aware I'm biased. my natural inclination would be to point at studies that support me and disregard the counter evidence. The difference here is there essentially is no counter evidence, the science firmly points in one direction. All you have are unsupported suspicions and paranoia that this is done purely out of agenda, and surely science would support your position without the "echo chamber".

Back in the day, political forces had a "stronger" force on psychology simply because back then it was not as well understood what was the cause and effect of deleterious outcomes, essentially anyone that didn't confirm to societal standards was labelled a deviant and needed to be fixed. This goes back to the very early days where individuals were labeled insane for ludicrous reasons. In 2020, psychology is more evidence based than it ever was before. Read some studies on evolutionary science and tell me the left control the literature.

it doesn't take a psychologist to see how your arguments have no substance, just rationalizations why you have no substance yet still can somehow hold your position.

 

[poshman]

What the actual fu**? The amount of rightwing Freo people this thread has uncovered has shocked and kind of upset me. My fault for how unchecked my solipsism has become, I guess.

Trump may win the electoral college but he will never win the popular vote. He is the last hurrah of a doomed and dying breed and only something more than the answer to a trivia question because the GOP are shameless rorters of electoral boundaries and self-serving abusers of constitutional principles drafted by gentlemen farmers who thought owning people was a cool idea.

Their days are numbered. The Overton window has shifted for all time to the left. Once the boomers die, that will just leave the bluecollar rednecks and they are more socially liberal than they realise.

Wallace Shawn has said all this best - Trump is where he is because he has made it easy for the greedy and weak and venal to relax into their shittiness*. The rest of us actually still want to strive for better.


* https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2020/10/27/election-developments-since-my-birth/

"Trump has liberated a lot of people from the last vestiges of the Sermon on the Mount. A lot of people turn out to have been sick and tired of pretending to be good. The fact that the leader of one of our two parties—the party, in fact, that has for many decades represented what was normal, acceptable, and respectable—was not ashamed to reveal his own selfishness, was not ashamed to reveal his own indifference to the suffering of others, was not even ashamed to reveal his own cheerful enjoyment of cruelty…all of this helped people to feel that they no longer needed to be ashamed of those qualities in themselves either. They didn’t need to feel bad because they didn’t care about other people."

Wow.. what a garbage link to post. Did you read my reasoning below that post?

The left has called every republican president or republican running for president a racist over the last 40 years. It doesn’t make it true.

As to not caring for others... happy to have you visit me mate and we can compare the charity work and trips to indigenous communities and third world countries and see how caring I am. I have no doubt you are caring I wonder how jaded you must be to think that because I don’t want the reckless destruction of countries through extreme socialism I am somehow a horrible uncaring person.

I have walked through Cambodia and Vietnam and seen the wreckage of socialism. I have partnered with companies in Venezuela who are trying to help people eat. Last week a team leader was raped and murdered for feeding poor people without feeding the armed forces in the area first... this is some of the reality I deal with being my uncaring self.

 

[wayToGo_]

Re: Trump - I see my support of him in this election as the best thing possible for all people especially LGBT or any other minority. The extreme socialist agenda has me, someone very centre and centre left or right on a range of issues very passionate that he wins.

Socialism has never worked. Has killed millions -and more than any other political system and has never worked. That one issue is enough for me. I wouldn’t have voted Trump in 16. Would have voted Obama in 8 but not 12. Would vote Trump now.

How is my belief that Trump is better than socialism a bigoted one if historically it is the best protection for minorities and against discrimination that the poor, weak or marginalised need.

As to Psychology - I was just thinking that you know very little or have sat under teaching in an echo chamber as many uni students sadly now do.

You are now saying academia is affected by outside pressure. After asserting it wasn’t. I am well aware of how academia works having a masters in two separate fields of studies and having lectured in Australia, the UK, Malaysia and the US.

So to summarise you equate Biden and the Democrats as having a purely socialist agenda? And therefore you are not necessarily supporting Trump the individual but rather the Republicans as the only alternative to full blown socialism? On what basis are you making that assessment?

Did you think Obama's 8 years was the implementation of a purely socialist agenda? He dug the US out of a recession that was given to him (by a Republican President) and at the end of his terms handed over an extremely healthy economy to Trump. If Biden wins he'll be in that exact same predicament of having to dig the US out of a recession (on top of a mismanaged pandemic and the US having a terrible global image).

Do you think purely socialist policies are capable of digging countries out of recessions? I'm assuming probably not. Surely it is either Democrats are not the evil socialists you claim they are, or aspects of socialism can be quite effective at sound economic management? Maybe a bit from both columns?

I think there is a fair bit of misinformation about both the Republicans/Trump's economic competency and conversely how economically astute (and relatively non-socialist) the Democrats have been when in power.

Trump and the Republicans overhauled the US tax system (reducing corporate tax to 21%) promising a massive upswing in GDP and various other economic benefits and none have happened. They tout it is a massive achievement but their economy is dire. Which is why they are picking out snippets they can polish up as good news and completely avoid talking about annual GDP growth and their record breaking debt levels.

The one thing Trump has achieved is injecting more conservative judges into the system than any President in history. That will have a long lasting impact for conservatives. I'm doubtful that now lack of balance is a good thing (and I'd say the same thing if it were biased way towards Democrats) but it is at least something he has achieved. His only other achievement is the First Step Act - which ironically is something you might expect more from a Left leaning President. No surprises why it had bipartisan support. Pretty much everything else has been a disaster from my assessment.

I very much doubt the sky will fall in if Biden wins. He'll be way too busy trying to clean up the mess left to him just like Obama had to way back when.

 

[poshman]

That's what I meant in my very first post, with these types of discussions people enter them with preconceived positions based on ignorance and hold them strongly regardless of the evidence. What ever I reference to you, scientific study or not you have a reason up your sleeve why it's not valid. It's such a waste of time tbh, and why trans people like me throw our arms up in the air and get sick of these arguments. It's exhausting, and people on the right shrug and act surprised why we are sick of your sh*t.

I'm trans, and I am firmly aware I'm biased. my natural inclination would be to point at studies that support me and disregard the counter evidence. The difference here is there essentially is no counter evidence, the science firmly points in one direction. All you have are unsupported suspicions and paranoia that this is done purely out of agenda, and surely science would support your position without the "echo chamber".

Back in the day, political forces had a "stronger" force on psychology simply because back then it was not as well understood what was the cause and effect of deleterious outcomes, essentially anyone that didn't confirm to societal standards was labelled a deviant and needed to be fixed. This goes back to the very early days where individuals were labeled insane for ludicrous reasons. In 2020, psychology is more evidence based than it ever was before. Read some studies on evolutionary science and tell me the left control the literature.

it doesn't take a psychologist to see how your arguments have no substance, just rationalizations why you have no substance yet still can somehow hold your position.

You claimed the science was settled for decades and have not provided a single link or study to back up the claim. You have made the claims not me.

you claimed science wasnt censored and when I said it was you agreed with me but now don’t want to acknowledge that...

I am willing to read and learn. I will look further into evolutionary science. What I have read so far does not clearly prove that a man is the same as a trans man or a woman the same as a trans woman.

Having said all that - I hope you are well and are supported and believe you should be respected and championed. It is great you are studying and I hope you find joy and purpose there. These are hopes I have for all people.

 

[Kram]

Who knew it would be one Basil that would get this thread heated up!

 

[Lach72]

Biden is an extreme socialist now? FMD

 

[poshman]

So to summarise you equate Biden and the Democrats as having a purely socialist agenda? And therefore you are not necessarily supporting Trump the individual but rather the Republicans as the only alternative to full blown socialism? On what basis are you making that assessment?

Did you think Obama's 8 years was the implementation of a purely socialist agenda? He dug the US out of a recession that was given to him (by a Republican President) and at the end of his terms handed over an extremely healthy economy to Trump. If Biden wins he'll be in that exact same predicament of having to dig the US out of a recession (on top of a mismanaged pandemic and the US having a terrible global image).

Do you think purely socialist policies are capable of digging countries out of recessions? I'm assuming probably not. Surely it is either Democrats are not the evil socialists you claim they are, or aspects of socialism can be quite effective at sound economic management? Maybe a bit from both columns?

I think there is a fair bit of misinformation about both the Republicans/Trump's economic competency and conversely how economically astute (and relatively non-socialist) the Democrats have been when in power.

Trump and the Republicans overhauled the US tax system (reducing corporate tax to 21%) promising a massive upswing in GDP and various other economic benefits and none have happened. They tout it is a massive achievement but their economy is dire. Which is why they are picking out snippets they can polish up as good news and completely avoid talking about annual GDP growth and their record breaking debt levels.

The one thing Trump has achieved is injecting more conservative judges into the system than any President in history. That will have a long lasting impact for conservatives. I'm doubtful that now lack of balance is a good thing (and I'd say the same thing if it were biased way towards Democrats) but it is at least something he has achieved. His only other achievement is the First Step Act - which ironically is something you might expect more from a Left leaning President. No surprises why it had bipartisan support. Pretty much everything else has been a disaster from my assessment.

I very much doubt the sky will fall in if Biden wins. He'll be way too busy trying to clean up the mess left to him just like Obama had to way back when.

Listen to the democratic debates. Bernie has said he thinks Biden is the most left candidate in history. Harris has an extreme left voting position.

I hope that if he is elected he moves to the centre. If I go on what he has said it is a terrifying prospect.

 

[wayToGo_]

Listen to the democratic debates. Bernie has said he thinks Biden is the most left candidate in history. Harris has an extreme left voting position.

I hope that if he is elected he moves to the centre. If I go on what he has said it is a terrifying prospect.

I think you may be seeing what you want to see (and ignoring any evidence to the contrary) to suit the narrative you want.

There is no way Biden is the most left candidate in history - his actions don't support that point of view at all. And similarly Harris's don't either. The vast majority of their policies sit squarely in the moderate column - plenty of it is even conservative leaning. That's why they chose Biden as their candidate! If we are going to give credibility to what was said by other Democratic Presidential nominees in the heat of battle during the primaries then there is no way anybody should be voting Trump given what his opponents also said of him in the Republican primaries.

Even Biden's position on energy, which has been characterised by the RW media as 'far left' thinking, is actually following what a lot of Centre-Right and RW people know to be true and believe must happen in the not-to-distant future to create/retain jobs and the industry to prosper. He made the mistake of mentioning it (in the 2nd debate), whereas he would have been better off shutting up or promising some amazing future plan (like Trump did with the alternative to ACA way back in 2016) but then just perpetually fob it off to sort out in "two weeks".

I think Trump and the Republicans have been working hard to redefine what is actually "centre" as "left" and "left" as "far left" and in so doing making some of their "right" and borderline "far right" actions appear more moderate. I'm over the smoke and mirrors in politics generally. I believe no-one and instead let the data and evidence educate my opinions on things.

 

[poshman]

I think you may be seeing what you want to see (and ignoring any evidence to the contrary) to suit the narrative you want.

There is no way Biden is the most left candidate in history - his actions don't support that point of view at all. And similarly Harris's don't either. The vast majority of their policies sit squarely in the moderate column - plenty of it is even conservative leaning. That's why they chose Biden as their candidate! If we are going to give credibility to what was said by other Democratic Presidential nominees in the heat of battle during the primaries then there is no way anybody should be voting Trump given what his opponents also said of him in the Republican primaries.

Even Biden's position on energy, which has been characterised by the RW media as 'far left' thinking, is actually following what a lot of Centre-Right and RW people know to be true and believe must happen in the not-to-distant future to create/retain jobs and the industry to prosper. He made the mistake of mentioning it (in the 2nd debate), whereas he would have been better off shutting up or promising some amazing future plan (like Trump did with the alternative to ACA way back in 2016) but then just perpetually fob it off to sort out in "two weeks".

I think Trump and the Republicans have been working hard to redefine what is actually "centre" as "left" and "left" as "far left" and in so doing making some of their "right" and borderline "far right" actions appear more moderate. I'm over the smoke and mirrors in politics generally. I believe no-one and instead let the data and evidence educate my opinions on things.

We will have to agree to disagree.

free health care for illegal immigrants is not a moderate position.

free school for all is not conservative.

ending fossil fuels is not moderate or conservative. He has been all over the place on this one so it’s hard to see where he stands.

green new deal - Bernie and Biden back it. How is that moderate?

I think Trump has done a poor job of outlining how extreme left they have gone. I was all in on Democrat’s in 08. They have moved left a long way since then. I believe they are trying to redefine what is left - centre - right. As I’ve stated I’m all over the centre with my views. But against far left. For me that is the ball game.

 

[Bigger]

Wow.. what a garbage link to post. Did you read my reasoning below that post?

The left has called every republican president or republican running for president a racist over the last 40 years. It doesn’t make it true.

As to not caring for others... happy to have you visit me mate and we can compare the charity work and trips to indigenous communities and third world countries and see how caring I am. I have no doubt you are caring I wonder how jaded you must be to think that because I don’t want the reckless destruction of countries through extreme socialism I am somehow a horrible uncaring person.

I have walked through Cambodia and Vietnam and seen the wreckage of socialism. I have partnered with companies in Venezuela who are trying to help people eat. Last week a team leader was raped and murdered for feeding poor people without feeding the armed forces in the area first... this is some of the reality I deal with being my uncaring self.

I think your belief that Biden-Harris are the harbingers of some sort of south-east-asian style socialist deathcult is kind of ... a little off base.

Harris is a cop and Biden is a career centrist politician in a political landscape that makes our own dear Liberal party look a little like the loony left.

Reds under the bed! *. The Democrats annoy the living bejesus out of the genuine American left, with their quaint belief in the sanctity of institutions and processes that the Republicans just flat out ignore. Merrick Garland, anyone?

You need to find a time machine and whisk yourself out of the 1950s.

 

[wayToGo_]

We will have to agree to disagree.

free health care for illegal immigrants is not a moderate position.

free school for all is not conservative.

ending fossil fuels is not moderate or conservative. He has been all over the place on this one so it’s hard to see where he stands.

green new deal - Bernie and Biden back it. How is that moderate?

I think Trump has done a poor job of outlining how extreme left they have gone. I was all in on Democrat’s in 08. They have moved left a long way since then. I believe they are trying to redefine what is left - centre - right. As I’ve stated I’m all over the centre with my views. But against far left. For me that is the ball game.

You are over simplifying his positions. He is far more moderate on all these issues than how you are implying.

Wanting to invest in industries that have a social benefit isn't extreme left thinking. I really wish the conservatives and Liberals here in Australia would finally realise this.

It's like Morrison the other day at an Innovation conference coming out and saying we want to be technology adopters not technology creators. * me that is some of the dumbest s**t I've seen from a leader in a long time. So despite having some of the best IT capabilities in the world we want to continue shipping them all overseas to make money for companies that don't pay taxes to Australia?

I liked when conservatism wasn't just resistance to any change at all costs.

 

[poshman]

I think your belief that Biden-Harris are the harbingers of some sort of south-east-asian style socialist deathcult is kind of ... a little off base.

Harris is a cop and Biden is a career centrist politician in a political landscape that makes our own dear Liberal party look a little like the loony left.

Reds under the bed! ****. The Democrats annoy the living bejesus out of the genuine American left, with their quaint belief in the sanctity of institutions and processes that the Republicans just flat out ignore. Merrick Garland, anyone?

You need to find a time machine and whisk yourself out of the 1950s.

So conservatives are the bad people but again it is you with the insults...

Harris is as bad a candidate as Hillary and that is saying something. She is extreme left in policy. What do you think about her accusing Biden of being racist when convenient and when convenient suddenly changing her mind. Sound familiar?

Biden is meant to be the centre against the left tide. Yet he has in his words endorsed all the policies I mentioned and I doubt if he has the strength to hold back the extreme left. Do you think he does?

Why is it that if I disagree with a progressive it is because I am backwards and should go back to the 1950’s.

Free healthcare for all including all illegal immigrants. Free school and mentions of paying off college debt. And in recent debates discussion of a living wage.

I quite like Yang. He seems well thought out, intelligent and engaging. Yet what of these policies is not far left?

I think all those issues need to be dealt with better and as many people should be helped as possible. I also think we can do it without going full socialist. The Democratic Party has them self said that AOC is the future of the party. She is a self confessed socialist. I can’t see how this is even controversial.

 

[poshman]

You are over simplifying his positions. He is far more moderate on all these issues than how you are implying.

Wanting to invest in industries that have a social benefit isn't extreme left thinking. I really wish the conservatives and Liberals here in Australia would finally realise this.

It's like Morrison the other day at an Innovation conference coming out and saying we want to be technology adopters not technology creators. fu** me that is some of the dumbest sh*t I've seen from a leader in a long time. So despite having some of the best IT capabilities in the world we want to continue shipping them all overseas to make money for companies that don't pay taxes to Australia?

I liked when conservatism wasn't just resistance to any change at all costs.

How am I oversimplifying them? He has said those things word for word.

I also liked when conservatism wasn’t against change at all costs. I liked when progressives were also not against change at all costs.

 

[poshman]

It won’t let me quote your last post tacopavlich

Thanks for sending those through. I have read all but the last one and didn’t find them convincing. Perhaps that is a deep bias or perhaps I am correct. Either way I won’t treat people in any way other than with respect.

I will look at the last one. Thanks for taking the time to get the links.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Personally, as a pretty central voter I think there is very little difference with what policies are enacted (not promised, enacted) by each party, realistically, you are voting for who you want you figurehead/public face to be.

In that regard, Trump literally embodies my least favourite characteristics of the human race and if I was American, I would vote for a trained monkey over him, and it wouldnt even be close. At least i'd be able understand what the monkey was trying to say.

The guy has made them a laughing stock of the world, for a proud (arrogant?) people, you'd think that would be enough to kick him out but we'll see

 

[wayToGo_]

How am I oversimplifying them? He has said those things word for word.

I also liked when conservatism wasn’t against change at all costs. I liked when progressives were also not against change at all costs.

No he hasn't. Media outlets have spun his words out of context to claim that's what he said but in reality his positions/comments were more complex (and far more moderate) on most of them. Also it is important to know these are just a handful of issues that have been deliberately pulled out media etc to imply "left" leaning narrative they need (to distinguish clearly from the other side). There are countless issues you'd need to add to that to get a full picture and like I said, most of those would be moderate and sometimes even more conservative leaning.

I think that happens a lot in Australia where on 99% of the issues that impact us day to day both parties have pretty similar policy positions yet we make a big song and dance about how terrible or good their policies are for the remaining 1% (not real numbers just trying to illustrate my point).

Your second sentence we are in furious agreement. I think we need politicians to spend less time squawking about the extremes and instead get to work providing well balanced outcomes. I'd rather hear far less from politicians and more about their achievements - the fact in 4 years I struggle to see anything Trump's administration has achieved is why I really don't understand why people are voting for him. FWIW I don't think Biden is a great communicator nor the best candidate either but I just can't see it being any worse under Biden than the diabolical disaster that Trump has created. As I've said I highly doubt Biden will achieve anything "extreme" as his entire first term will be spent cleaning up the mess.

 

[Bigger]

So conservatives are the bad people but again it is you with the insults...

Harris is as bad a candidate as Hillary and that is saying something. She is extreme left in policy. What do you think about her accusing Biden of being racist when convenient and when convenient suddenly changing her mind. Sound familiar?

Biden is meant to be the centre against the left tide. Yet he has in his words endorsed all the policies I mentioned and I doubt if he has the strength to hold back the extreme left. Do you think he does?

Why is it that if I disagree with a progressive it is because I am backwards and should go back to the 1950’s.

Free healthcare for all including all illegal immigrants. Free school and mentions of paying off college debt. And in recent debates discussion of a living wage.

I quite like Yang. He seems well thought out, intelligent and engaging. Yet what of these policies is not far left?

I think all those issues need to be dealt with better and as many people should be helped as possible. I also think we can do it without going full socialist. The Democratic Party has them self said that AOC is the future of the party. She is a self confessed socialist. I can’t see how this is even controversial.

Mate, I don't think the American "far left" you are wetting your knickers about is in fact very left at all.

I certainly don't think a bloke who has been a politician for 47 years and done effectively *-all is going to all of a sudden turn into Pol Pot.

And AOC and her "classmates" are the future of the party. But right now they are still wrangling with all the Facebook Grandpas and easily-addled who think Medicare For all is tantamount to seizing the means of production, so we are stuck with a couple of septuagenarians who are about as far left as David Cameron or John Howard and a former Attorney-General who is an enforcer of laws and pragmatic moderate drafted in to shore up the socially progressive vote.

 

[Wigarus]

So conservatives are the bad people but again it is you with the insults...

Harris is as bad a candidate as Hillary and that is saying something. She is extreme left in policy. What do you think about her accusing Biden of being racist when convenient and when convenient suddenly changing her mind. Sound familiar?

Biden is meant to be the centre against the left tide. Yet he has in his words endorsed all the policies I mentioned and I doubt if he has the strength to hold back the extreme left. Do you think he does?

Why is it that if I disagree with a progressive it is because I am backwards and should go back to the 1950’s.

Free healthcare for all including all illegal immigrants. Free school and mentions of paying off college debt. And in recent debates discussion of a living wage.

I quite like Yang. He seems well thought out, intelligent and engaging. Yet what of these policies is not far left?

I think all those issues need to be dealt with better and as many people should be helped as possible. I also think we can do it without going full socialist. The Democratic Party has them self said that AOC is the future of the party. She is a self confessed socialist. I can’t see how this is even controversial.

How do you define socialist? I mean I admit I am mostly ignorant in all things politics so I honestly don't know. The things you have complained about all exist in Australia and just seem needlessly cruel to not have in a wealthy country. Also if you say full socialist do you mean that the government will start to take control of private businesses?

I feel like free healthcare, free school, a living wage, all of those things are investments in the future. What is it that you don't like about the system we have here?


Honestly, Trump seems so repulsive of a human being that I honestly struggle to understand how anyone could want him as their representative.