Mega Thread Port Forum 'General AFL Talk' Thread Part 17

[Jonts]

This succinctly wraps up the issue. Now if we want to ignore this fact, then let Hannah play. From all accounts Hannah is pretty unco, so it's doubtful Hannah will dominate from a skills point of view, but whether Hannah's size will create issues, well that remains to be seen. It will create a precedent though, which may cause issues in the future, although highly doubtful that it will be common, where a 6 foot bloke who's trans who'd actually played a decent level of footy will come in and completely dominate. It may never happen, but it does open up that possibility.

Didn't she use to represent the men's handball team? I'd put her not in the pretty unco group

 

[Papa G]

Didn't she use to represent the men's handball team? I'd put her not in the pretty unco group

Could you pick a more obscure unpopular sport (in this country)? I've seen some footage of Hannah playing footy. Its pretty bad.

 

[Butters Made Me Do It]

I know that this may be a personal issue, but that is not the point at all. It is just that trans women are biologically men, and their presence in woman sports simply makes the whole point of having a category exclusively for women pointless.

Hi

No

Bye

(back to minimal posting in offseason, letting the likes on that post say enough)

 

[1954]

Size and strength obviously doesn't make all the difference but I suspect there would be posters here of both sexes who have played underage sport with kids who showed exceptional talent in their age group, but fell by the wayside in open age adult comps.

 

[Jonts]

Could you pick a more obscure unpopular sport (in this country)? I've seen some footage of Hannah playing footy. Its pretty bad.

Fair point, she seems to be just too big for her own good in the limited vision I've seen

 

[chickentendies]

I know that this may be a personal issue, but that is not the point at all. It is just that trans women are biologically men, and their presence in woman sports simply makes the whole point of having a category exclusively for women pointless.

Thanks Jair Bolsonaro

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

When the “she could really injure someone cause she’s so much bigger” crowd seems suddenly concerned after decades of cheering on 70kg rookies playing against guys built like absolute tanks you have to question their real motive.

I just don’t buy that these people are really concerned about the safety of footballers.

Anyone who watches AFLW on TV (not the stuff at the local park or sanfl grounds) and isn't a real fan, but keeps an open enough mind, will criticise the skill levels, but can't question the endeavour and the commitment and willingness of AFLW players to get a hard ball and put their body on the line and into dangerous positions.

The downside of that is that they get a lot of injuries and might be a reason for the high ACL knee injury rates in AFLW. AFLW players in general haven't learnt how to protect themselves. In general they haven't learnt how to enter a potential collision with eyes wide open to avoid coming off second best.

The 70kg, 18 or 19 year old playing at the start of his AFL career would have played for 6, 8 maybe 10 seasons, learning those skills at training with coaches guidance as well as playing full seasons. How many of the players in AFLW have played for 6,8 or 10 full seasons to hone those skills? Most haven't had that opportunity.

Is it any better or worse in Canberra park footy where this comp will take place? I don't know, I doubt its better, but its a legitimate issue at this embryonic stage of the female version of the game when a transgender women who has played male footy for many seasons and probably learnt those protection skills, and will be so much bigger than the other female players who probably haven't. In 10-15 years time I doubt the difference in size will be as big an issue as it is now.

 

[Schulzenfest]

I hate the fact that I'm on the side of the issue that I am, but I don't think she should be allowed to play women's footy either.

I fully support Hannah Mouncey's right to change her name, look how she wants, wear what she wants, be referred to by her preferred pronouns, use the woman's bathroom etc etc etc, and anybody who doesn't is a campaigner. All of that stuff is her personal business and doesn't impact on anyone else. What does start impacting on other people is taking somebody with Hannah Mouncey's background and putting her on a sporting field with 21 cisgender women on the other team. I don't think it's fair on them to have to play a physical contact sport against somebody with Hannah's background.

 

[Doctor Feel]

I hate the fact that I'm on the side of the issue that I am, but I don't think she should be allowed to play women's footy either.

I fully support Hannah Mouncey's right to change her name, look how she wants, wear what she wants, be referred to by her preferred pronouns, use the woman's bathroom etc etc etc, and anybody who doesn't is a campaigner. All of that stuff is her personal business and doesn't impact on anyone else. What does start impacting on other people is taking somebody with Hannah Mouncey's background and putting her on a sporting field with 21 cisgender women on the other team. I don't think it's fair on them to have to play a physical contact sport against somebody with Hannah's background.

Basically this. Like it or not, it would make a mockery of the integrity of the game. From what I understand it would also be a heavily unpopular move among the female footy players (looking back at the reactions when this first was a thing with Mouncey). If Mouncey can be within the normal brackets of hormones then I probably have no issue. However I'd expect her to be tested very regularly. Honestly, it's simply too much to ask for her to be able to just play freely as if nothing was different, because it is. She was born a man, and is artificially being made a woman. This comes with serious hormonal implications, it's just the way it is.

The question that gets raised is whether Mouncey's right to play trumps that of the Women in the league to have a clean league with all players within normal hormonal ranges.

It has to be debated without bias, without sentiment and based purely on the fairness of the competition - as all sport should be. Having said that, it's an enormously sensitive issue which you would expect to receive emotional responses on.

 

[GremioPower]

Thanks Jair Bolsonaro

Welcome!



P.S.: I'm impressed. Ad hominem, appeal to emotion, false analogy, and strawman. That's four fallacies in a three-word sentence. Congrats! It's quite a feat...

 

[GremioPower]

Hi

No

Bye

(back to minimal posting in offseason, letting the likes on that post say enough)

I practice minimum posting in offseason, too. It's not personal.

I just want people to be happy. But that's not what is being debated.

 

[sobrave]

I hate the fact that I'm on the side of the issue that I am, but I don't think she should be allowed to play women's footy either.

I fully support Hannah Mouncey's right to change her name, look how she wants, wear what she wants, be referred to by her preferred pronouns, use the woman's bathroom etc etc etc, and anybody who doesn't is a campaigner. All of that stuff is her personal business and doesn't impact on anyone else. What does start impacting on other people is taking somebody with Hannah Mouncey's background and putting her on a sporting field with 21 cisgender women on the other team. I don't think it's fair on them to have to play a physical contact sport against somebody with Hannah's background.

It's a tough one for sure.
Different situation, but reminds me of the Caster Semenya stuff.

"In 2019, new IAAF rules came into force preventing women such as Semenya from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events unless they take medication to lower their testosterone levels."

I think this sort of approach is the fairest way to go about it.

 

[Schulzenfest]

If Mouncey can be within the normal brackets of hormones then I probably have no issue.

It's a tough one for sure.
Different situation, but reminds me of the Caster Semenya stuff.

"In 2019, new IAAF rules came into force preventing women such as Semenya from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events unless they take medication to lower their testosterone levels."

I think this sort of approach is the fairest way to go about it.

The problem here is though, even if she is within the normal brackets of hormones now, she still has a huge advantage over the cisgender women players by having grown up with more testosterone in her system than they had growing up. The effects that would have had on height, muscle development, bone density etc in her adolescence don't just disappear because she's getting hormone therapy now.

Like, if you look at a trans woman who only started transitioning and receiving hormone therapy later in life compared to a trans woman who started transitioning and receiving hormone therapy before puberty, it makes a world of difference. Those body changes that a person goes through during puberty don't just go away.

 

[GremioPower]

why dont they make AFLLGBTQ to solve all of this

It is called AFL. There is no "male" category. That's where the mistake is. It is "open". It has no limit. If you are considered good enough, you should be able to play.

Some sports have categories by age. Other sports have categories by weight. Some others have categories by handicap/ranking. Some have a gender category. Others don't have anything at all.

Either those categories are meaningful or meaningless. There is no third option. If they mean something, then what is that make them meaningful? That's the question to be answered first. Everything else follows it.

---

I hate the fact that I'm on the side of the issue that I am, but I don't think she should be allowed to play women's footy either.

But that's precisely the point. It's not a matter of "what I want" or of "what I like". It is what it is. My will be damned.

By the way, everything else you said in your comment is spot on. The fact is that those issues are a completely different and unrelated discussion.

 

[Papa G]

Cisgender. FMD.

 

[philthy05]

I see the benefits, which are factual, measured, real world outcomes of accepting trans people into communities, workplaces and sports (the real world disasters which are measured in outrageous high suicide rates and low quality of life etc)

while the negatives of allowing someone to play a game where we speculate she “could” hurt someone, or it isn’t “fair” to other athletes wildly speculative and as a worst case scenario still pales to the former.

 

[philthy05]

Anyone who watches AFLW on TV (not the stuff at the local park or sanfl grounds) and isn't a real fan, but keeps an open enough mind, will criticise the skill levels, but can't question the endeavour and the commitment and willingness of AFLW players to get a hard ball and put their body on the line and into dangerous positions.

The downside of that is that they get a lot of injuries and might be a reason for the high ACL knee injury rates in AFLW. AFLW players in general haven't learnt how to protect themselves. In general they haven't learnt how to enter a potential collision with eyes wide open to avoid coming off second best.

The 70kg, 18 or 19 year old playing at the start of his AFL career would have played for 6, 8 maybe 10 seasons, learning those skills at training with coaches guidance as well as playing full seasons. How many of the players in AFLW have played for 6,8 or 10 full seasons to hone those skills? Most haven't had that opportunity.

Is it any better or worse in Canberra park footy where this comp will take place? I don't know, I doubt its better, but its a legitimate issue at this embryonic stage of the female version of the game when a transgender women who has played male footy for many seasons and probably learnt those protection skills, and will be so much bigger than the other female players who probably haven't. In 10-15 years time I doubt the difference in size will be as big an issue as it is now.

this is an argument for increasing the professionalism of aflw and getting better resources and training and watching them improve over time.

 

[edgie]

The problem here is though, even if she is within the normal brackets of hormones now, she still has a huge advantage over the cisgender women players by having grown up with more testosterone in her system than they had growing up. The effects that would have had on muscle development, bone density etc in her adolescence don't just disappear because she's getting hormone therapy now.
...

I can assure you that this is not the case.

...

Does anyone here even have time in transgender crowds? I mean I know some do, but after observing trans people perform athletic feats in soccer, football, and dance, I can confidently say that after full transition, I believe there is NO ingrained physical advantage.

The problem is Mouncey has not and does not intend to fully transition.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

this is an argument for increasing the professionalism of aflw and getting better resources and training and watching them improve over time.

Its an argument for both issues, because whilst there are issues re injuries it will impact on the decision to allow a 100kg+ transgender woman to join in.

Look at yesterday's trial match that was called off between the crows and giants because of a collision injury. When was the last time an AFL or state league trial was called off because of a collision injury? what about the next level down from state league competition?

Tribute overshadowed by horror scenes

The AFLW pre-season is underway but already there has been a serious injury with GWS Giants’ Irish recruit Brid Stack sent to hospital due to spinal precaution protocols.

www.news.com.au

The AFLW pre-season is underway but already there has been a serious injury with GWS Giants’ Irish recruit Brid Stack sent to hospital due to spinal precaution protocols.

The practice match against the Adelaide Crows ended early after the injury as an ambulance pulled onto the field to assist the injured star.
...........

 

[Papa G]

2.21.

 

[Powerade 08]

Why are the virtue signalers not just calling for us to make every comp mixed-gender? Isn't that the best and easiest solution.

 

[sobrave]

Why are the virtue signalers not just calling for us to make every comp mixed-gender? Isn't that the best and easiest solution.

Because that's ******* stupid.

 

[backtozero]

I can assure you that this is not the case.

...

Does anyone here even have time in transgender crowds? I mean I know some do, but after observing trans people perform athletic feats in soccer, football, and dance, I can confidently say that after full transition, I believe there is NO ingrained physical advantage.

The problem is Mouncey has not and does not intend to fully transition.

Do you have any proof besides some loose first hand observations? Cos science would disagree with you.

Differences between male and female skeletons, heads and muscles

Is sex binary? Overview of the far-reaching differences between male & female bodies. Biological sex goes right down to the cellular level...

fairplayforwomen.com

 

[simba_]

It is called AFL. There is no "male" category. That's where the mistake is. It is "open". It has no limit. If you are considered good enough, you should be able to play.

is this official? seems like this is nice to think about but not actual reality

 

[chiwigi]

Organised women's sport has been around almost as long as organised men's sport. Just because now we're pretending it is anywhere near as good as men's sport doesn't mean the patriarchy has stopped women playing sport until very recently.

On this point. Women’s Participation in many sports deemed unsuitable for them and was banned and massively discouraged for decades (Netball was created because it was more ladylike than basketball). Soccer for example banned it outright until the 70’s in many countries.
There were a few renegades, but there was genuine suppression of it.
Who knows what the levels would be like in team sports at this stage of that hadn’t happened.
Here‘s an example from the home of football, an example that was followed by many countries in many sports.

1921: The Year When Football Banned Women | HistoryExtra

In the early 20th century, women's football grew almost as quickly as the men's game, and reached new heights when the nation's men left for WW1…

www.historyextra.com