Opinion Port's ruck strategy

[GreyPower]

Whats the point of doing it for flankers? Roger Woodcock was the last bloke I remember only being able to play half forward flank and nowhere else.

KPPs and ruck are the hardest to replace because they need size and weight to play there succesfully. Look at Tommy Jonas we forced him to play on blokes that were 8 to 12 cms taller and 10-15 kgs heavier than him week in week out in 2013 and it eventually caught up with him. But in 2014 we have 3 true KPDs and he has a great season as he played on blokes his height and weight or less nearly every week and beat his opponents and had a great year.

We also dont have every flanker positiion with only 3 canidates for that position and every one of those positions one of the 3 canidates subject to a potential long term ban from a CAS ruling.

I reckon Stephen Knight & Brett Heady only really played hff.

 

[Sleezy]

A squad of 4 pure ruckmen, 4 pure KPD's, 4 pure KPF's leaves room for 32 pure orgasmic flanker types.

I'd prefer 5-6 pure KPF/KPD in the squad. 3 in the best 22 (schulz, dixon, westhoff/carlile, trengove, hombsch), one back-up/heir apparent (butcher/clurey) and at least one developing (howard/austin).

This leaves you with 28-30 for mids and flankers - which is probably enought to be fair. Would honestly prefer a project ruck to stewart or colqhoun - assuming there was one worth picking up. I feel that was the sticking point this year, at least from the clubs point of view.

 

[OneGreatClub]

How many rookie list ruckmen have an impact in year 1? None of them. Drafting a ruck in the rookie list would have done sweet fa for our premiership hopes this year. We'd get nothing more from them than we would by playing Frampton or Trengove in the ruck.

So where else do we look? The state leagues? As I said in a different thread, there is a severe lack of quality ruckmen coming through the system at the moment. This isn't a made up thing. This is fact. Almost all the quality rucks in the state leagues are either close to or over 30 and are between 190-197cm. How many of these are gonna be the saviour we need if the worst case scenario comes true?

fwiw, Hawthorn will be going into 2016 with the same ruck setup as us. McEvoy, Ceglar, untried 19yo Pittonet, noone else. North? They've got Goldstein, Brown and an untried rookie ruckman. West Coast? They've got three rucks on their list. Dogs? Three rucks. Seem to be a lot of finals teams willing to take the risk, not just us.

So would it be nice to have a 4th ruck on our list who's capable of playing AFL level? Sure. But just how many were available and would be capable of playing AFL next year? Not very many at all.

Well said Macca.

 

[Portia]

How many rookie list ruckmen have an impact in year 1? None of them. Drafting a ruck in the rookie list would have done sweet fa for our premiership hopes this year.

What about 2017 or 2018? Every year we don't have a developing ruck on the list is another year that we are further away from that kind of depth, and that we lack options for form dips, and that we give ourselves a 0 our of 0% chance of that ruckman becoming something good for us.

So where else do we look? The state leagues? As I said in a different thread, there is a severe lack of quality ruckmen coming through the system at the moment. This isn't a made up thing. This is fact. Almost all the quality rucks in the state leagues are either close to or over 30 and are between 190-197cm. How many of these are gonna be the saviour we need if the worst case scenario comes true?

197cm ruckman coming in on the rookie list and being a negater at the stoppage is a good option if Ryder/Lobbe are injured/suspended/in horrific form.

fwiw, Hawthorn will be going into 2016 with the same ruck setup as us. McEvoy, Ceglar, untried 19yo Pittonet, noone else. North? They've got Goldstein, Brown and an untried rookie ruckman. West Coast? They've got three rucks on their list. Dogs? Three rucks. Seem to be a lot of finals teams willing to take the risk, not just us.

That seems more like list management gamesmanship than anything else, and to some extent is probably a hangover from the sub rule. I sure hope this game Russian roulette hits them and not us.

So would it be nice to have a 4th ruck on our list who's capable of playing AFL level? Sure. But just how many were available and would be capable of playing AFL next year? Not very many at all.

Not very many =/= none. We had a trading period and two drafts to plan this out.

 

[Macca19]

What about 2017 or 2018? Every year we don't have a developing ruck on the list is another year that we are further away from that kind of depth, and that we lack options for form dips, and that we give ourselves a 0 our of 0% chance of that ruckman becoming something good for us.

We have a developing ruck on our list.

197cm ruckman coming in on the rookie list and being a negater at the stoppage is a good option if Ryder/Lobbe are injured/suspended/in horrific form.

204cm Redden being a negator at the stoppages in Round 2 was met with 6 months of vitriol on here, calls of it being the worst selection of all time, queries over whether Hinkley had jumped the shark etc. Why would a short state league ruckman who cant jump/18yo underdeveloped kid being asked to do the same role do any better? Why cant Frampton perform this role?

That seems more like list management gamesmanship than anything else, and to some extent is probably a hangover from the sub rule. I sure hope this game Russian roulette hits them and not us.

It is born out of there being minimal suitable rucks available at this particular point in time

Not very many =/= none. We had a trading period and two drafts to plan this out.

And Parker and his team of scouts who watched somewhere around 2000-2500 hours of football between them in 2015 decided none of them would be beneficial to our list.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I'd prefer 5-6 pure KPF/KPD in the squad. 3 in the best 22 (schulz, dixon, westhoff/carlile, trengove, hombsch), one back-up/heir apparent (butcher/clurey) and at least one developing (howard/austin).

This leaves you with 28-30 for mids and flankers - which is probably enought to be fair. Would honestly prefer a project ruck to stewart or colqhoun - assuming there was one worth picking up. I feel that was the sticking point this year, at least from the clubs point of view.

Yeah Im more a 5+5+5 with players spread out over 18-21, 22-24, 25-28, 29-30 and 31+ age brackets but showed a minimum 4+4+4 still left plenty of space for flankers.

 

[*PAF]

I'll keep out of the main debate but being able to rookie a mature aged break glass if needed ruckman is a fairly new thing.

 

[Portia]

I'll keep out of the main debate but being able to rookie a mature aged break glass if needed ruckman is a fairly new thing.

A return to an old thing though, as back in the days of the 48 man list you'd have them on your main list.

 

[Portia]

We have a developing ruck on our list.

Yes, `a' developing ruck. One.

204cm Redden being a negator at the stoppages in Round 2 was met with 6 months of vitriol on here, calls of it being the worst selection of all time, queries over whether Hinkley had jumped the shark etc.

Not from me. And if anything that was evidence that, when you only have one AFL ruckman with a year of development ready to back up your #1, you don't have a lot of options. SO we delist Redden, Frampton takes that spot and unlike in 2015 we don't even have a Frampton to come in - it'll be fewer options in the same scenario if it comes up in 2016 than we had in 2015.

Why would a short state league ruckman who cant jump/18yo underdeveloped kid being asked to do the same role do any better? Why cant Frampton perform this role?

He might be able to, or he might be injured or have a form dip like most ruckmen his age. And when you only have one ruckman his age, you have a great chance of that injury/form drop happening at the wrong time. I am far from writing off Frampton, but jesus we've been hit hard by ruck injuries before in big years before and its only because we had ludicrous depth that we got through it.

It is born out of there being minimal suitable rucks available at this particular point in time

No, I suspect its a planned thing rather than us being `caught out' by a momentary lapse of available talent. The truth of league football is that it adapts according to the talent available. The club has decided three ruckmen is enough, or they would have done more in trade period. This is hugely risky.

 

[OneGreatClub]

MMM. People seem to have highjacked the Dixon thread.

 

[*PAF]

A return to an old thing though, as back in the days of the 48 man list you'd have them on your main list.

Yep. However the post was more about developing rucks on the rookie list not being ready in year one. The rookie list was originally designed for young players.

 

[Jakko]

The Ryder situation is the big one. Once that's decided (hopefully all good) I will feel a bit better. But even if both he and Lobbe are out, I think we can cover it by having an extra runner and lots of third man up around the ground. We have some tall depth down back to free up Trengove, and if Sgt and Dixon are fit then can afford to have Hoff up near the ball for help.

 

[Sleezy]

Yeah Im more a 5+5+5 with players spread out over 18-21, 22-24, 25-28, 29-30 and 31+ age brackets but showed a minimum 4+4+4 still left plenty of space for flankers.

I think 5 is a bit ott for ruckman. Ideally you would only be playing 1 at any given time, with one of your kpp's providing back-up.

5 list spots for one position in the team is excessive when considering you would have 5 spots each for kpd and kpf, of whic you have between 4 and 6 in the team at any given time.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

I think 5 is a bit ott for ruckman. Ideally you would only be playing 1 at any given time, with one of your kpp's providing back-up.

5 list spots for one position in the team is excessive when considering you would have 5 spots each for kpd and kpf, of whic you have between 4 and 6 in the team at any given time.

How many of our 19 seasons in the AFL have we not had at least 1 ruckmen miss a whole season or at least 3/4 of the home and away and finals part of the season with a major injury or series of injuries. Off the top of my head I can only remember 4.

 

[Jim Dixon]

A guy like Goldstein would've been enough of a force-multiplier to win North a flag 10 years ago, now he's just another player, as excellent as he is.

He's working with a lacklustre midfield though. He's carried them to two prelm finals now.

I think there is a definite trend away from ruckmen throughout the AFL. I can't understand how the club who must have read the relevant documents couldn't find one more ruckman. Mark Jamar would have been the perfect Ryder insurance ruckman for one year but no-one picked him up, which makes me wonder if there's a industry-wide consensus that ruckmen just aren't important.

Me, I watched Essendon's struggles in 2015 with Tom Bellchambers. Ruckmen matter. I will always sleep better with 4 rucks on the list at the best of times.

 

[Sleezy]

How many of our 19 seasons in the AFL have we not had at least 1 ruckmen miss a whole season or at least 3/4 of the home and away and finals part of the season with a major injury or series of injuries. Off the top of my head I can only remember 4.

When was the last year we had an injury free kpf or kpp group for the year? We don't carry quadruple redundancy for those positions.

But agree 3 is not enough, as i don't big dix in the centre square. However, if we do fall unto this hole i am looking forward to seeing big bad billy frampton step up and show the comp what he's made of!

 

[Macca19]

No, I suspect its a planned thing rather than us being `caught out' by a momentary lapse of available talent. The truth of league football is that it adapts according to the talent available. The club has decided three ruckmen is enough, or they would have done more in trade period. This is hugely risky.

Correct, it adapts to the talent available. At the moment, there aren't many talented rucks available. 11 clubs have 2 or less experienced rucks on their list next year. Half the top eight are running with this structure. The club has decided three is enough because they aren't convinved by the talent available, just like half the clubs in the league.

There is another draft next year. We'll have another chance to get some 18 year old kid next year.

 

[Jim Dixon]

I was curious to know how the ruckmen went at the under18 champs this year and the AFL page has the stats. Just, they chose not to keep count of the hitouts this year.... http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-05-23/u18-championships-div-1-round-1-stats

 

[DaTBird187]

I don't understand this call for more ruckmen on the list to cover misfortune. Unless, of course, our three ruckmen fall victim to three separate misfortunes and are unable to play. But that will never happen. One misfortune, that's possible. Two misfortunes, there's an outside chance. But Three misfortunes? I'd like to see that!

 

[Capital]

We have plenty of ruck options, time to move on.

 

[1954]

People who reckon ruckmen aren't important need to take a look at the 2003 finals series when brisvegas won their 3rd flag on the trot.
The wobblers beat the brions in a semi final when milkhouse placed a ring of his players around the brions at the stoppages stifling their run, but in the gf Barney Rubble countered that by having Clarke Keating smash the ball from the very first bounce into the open spaces, and the rest as they say is history.

Closer to home, the Maggies won a gf due to a dominant ruck performance by Daryl Poole, and lost one a few years earlier when it's only ruckman Brett Chalmers was injured at the opening bounce.

 

[DaTBird187]

People who reckon ruckmen aren't important need to take a look at the 2003 finals series when brisvegas won their 3rd flag on the trot.
The wobblers beat the brions in a semi final when milkhouse placed a ring of his players around the brions at the stoppages stifling their run, but in the gf Barney Rubble countered that by having Clarke Keating smash the ball from the very first bounce into the open spaces, and the rest as they say is history.

Closer to home, the Maggies won a gf due to a dominant ruck performance by Daryl Poole, and lost one a few years earlier when it's only ruckman Brett Chalmers was injured at the opening bounce.

Yeah, nah.

If you watch the 2004 GF, we had players on the bench who didn't come on until the second half. Football is vastly different to 10 years ago. And don't even get me started on the SANFL comparison.

The only ruckmen that are influential are in the top 5% of the league. All others are just there because someone has to go for the ball up.

 

[Arintaraj]

fwiw, Hawthorn will be going into 2016 with the same ruck setup as us. McEvoy, Ceglar, untried 19yo Pittonet, noone else. North? They've got Goldstein, Brown and an untried rookie ruckman. West Coast? They've got three rucks on their list. Dogs? Three rucks. Seem to be a lot of finals teams willing to take the risk, not just us.

I think the problem with this comparison is that neither Hawks, North, or Weagles, currently have WADA going after their number ruckman.

Otherwise I find your argument quite compelling.

 

[MrChow]

3 Rucks is enough (even with WADA). Trengrove/Westy/or even Butcher are going to do just aswell as a 'project'/rookie ruck in the AFL team. Probably better around the ground. Nic NAt will kill anyone that isn't Ryder (possibly Lobbe aswell) at tap work. So Trengrove/Westy or Butcher can just smash into them at the centre bounces. I vote Butch to crash ruckmen like he does packs...

 

[*PAF]

3 Rucks is enough (even with WADA). Trengrove/Westy/or even Butcher are going to do just aswell as a 'project'/rookie ruck in the AFL team. Probably better around the ground. Nic NAt will kill anyone that isn't Ryder (possibly Lobbe aswell) at tap work. So Trengrove/Westy or Butcher can just smash into them at the centre bounces. I vote Butch to crash ruckmen like he does packs...

Given his hip history and the fact he has only just got his confidence back, that is the last thing I'd want Butcher to do.

The Smaller Warrior how is his personalised kicking training going? Did it happen?