Positives and Negatives of not making the finals

zero

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#76
one positive is that the players wont think that the pathetic effort they put in through the middle of the season will result in them playing finals. id be kind of pissed off if the team that completely rolled over and looked awful against mid-range sides like carlton, collingwood, north and richmond could just waltz into the 8 by only beating poor sides.

another positive is that our ladder position is completely accurate, even with a couple of months of really diabolical football, we were still a better side (in my opinion) than carlton, collingwood and gold coast, and possibly the crows. likewise above us, richmond and north are far better sides than we were (just inconsistent), while essendon are too, just not by as much.

so say what you want about our easy draw, but i think we genuinely are the 9th best side in the comp.

so the good news is that i think we arent that far off it. i disagree with the popular opinion that our midfield depth is a problem, guys like magiggity and hutchings are perfectly cromulent fringe players who can come in and perform well enough to cover for big name outs.

our list problem (apologies if you have read me say this 500 times now) is our top end midfield talent. wellingham, rosa, selwood, shuey, gaff, masten, nicnat, lycett, yeo, there just isnt enough really good players in that lot. yeo and scooter were good early and toward the end of the season lycett, gaff and shuey started to show their best but we are still some significant improvement away from real contention.

attitude, intensity during games and playing 4 quarters were also significant problems for us during the year.

so look i really dont think we are THAT far away. if a couple of those midfield guys can see some improvement, like scooter, shuey and/or gaff stepping up to AA sort of level, and the rest of the team playing full games and with the sort of intensity we saw at the end of the season, then we have the backs and forwards to beat all comers at home and the occasional middling side away, and push into the 3-6th range with the dockers and port.
 

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Daveismad

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#78
I've bagged the shit out of you too... and for the same reason. Underperformance and mediocrity.

Dave if you're not aware that we embarked on the task of a rebuild, particularly of our midfield, since the end of 2007 then I really can't help you.

If you aren't able to understand that the last blip of the "old group" got us a couple of ultimately meaningless finals appearances then I can't help you.

So it seems I can't help you.

That said, this notion that being a fan (or in my case a note holder/foundation member) means you must just clap politely and consistently focus on silver linings is errant nonsense. And in my experience is the area occupied by those with narrow minds and not much given to critical thinking.




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No no all I'm saying is we can't win the flag every year

Sheedy used to say with 16 teams ...if you win one flag every 16 years your doing well ......

Appreciate we are great club, we can't win every year is all I'm saying .....last season we were so terrible ...it was embarrassing ......We are far far better this year and did ok ...considering the list wasn't much different bar yeo who didn't play much ....

Out losses this year were not too bad.....we were watchable ......lots of positives
 

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#79
No no all I'm saying is we can't win the flag every year

Sheedy used to say with 16 teams ...if you win one flag every 16 years your doing well ......

Appreciate we are great club, we can't win every year is all I'm saying .....last season we were so terrible ...it was embarrassing ......We are far far better this year and did ok ...considering the list wasn't much different bar yeo who didn't play much ....

Out losses this year were not too bad.....we were watchable ......lots of positives
Dave I'm not expecting us to win one every year but I am expecting a sort of ruthless approach solely focused on winning one ASAP...

What I see is an, at times, aimless drift caused by overrating players and a focus on short term win-loss v the longer term building a premiership side...

Focusing short term, without that clear focus and a ruthless execution of a plan to achieve that next flag team leads to nice middling teams .... IMO


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Eagle87

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#80
No no all I'm saying is we can't win the flag every year

Sheedy used to say with 16 teams ...if you win one flag every 16 years your doing well ......

Appreciate we are great club, we can't win every year is all I'm saying .....last season we were so terrible ...it was embarrassing ......We are far far better this year and did ok ...considering the list wasn't much different bar yeo who didn't play much ....

Out losses this year were not too bad.....we were watchable ......lots of positives
Dave I'm not expecting us to win one every year but I am expecting a sort of ruthless approach solely focused on winning one ASAP...

What I see is an, at times, aimless drift caused by overrating players and a focus on short term win-loss v the longer term building a premiership side...

Focusing short term, without that clear focus and a ruthless execution of a plan to achieve that next flag team leads to nice middling teams .... IMO


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Daveismad

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#82
Dave I'm not expecting us to win one every year but I am expecting a sort of ruthless approach solely focused on winning one ASAP...

What I see is an, at times, aimless drift caused by overrating players and a focus on short term win-loss v the longer term building a premiership side...

Focusing short term, without that clear focus and a ruthless execution of a plan to achieve that next flag team leads to nice middling teams .... IMO


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I agree with you

How we success starts with small steps ....building a list that's good enough takes time ...some luck also

I don't like ken judge at all but I did agree with him on one thing ...Nesbit has wielded too much power for far to long

A leadership change in the CEO/board room is what's needed ....different way of thinking

The list isn't that far off from being a pretty good thing

I reckon trade a tall, take risk or two to get a gun midfielder
 

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#83
I agree with you

How we success starts with small steps ....building a list that's good enough takes time ...some luck also

I don't like ken judge at all but I did agree with him on one thing ...Nesbit has wielded too much power for far to long

A leadership change in the CEO/board room is what's needed ....different way of thinking

The list isn't that far off from being a pretty good thing

I reckon trade a tall, take risk or two to get a gun midfielder
Nisbett re-signing for 3 years was wholly disappointing for mine ...


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Daveismad

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#84
Nisbett re-signing for 3 years was wholly disappointing for mine ...


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We need a change at board level and running of the club

It was perfect timing, new coach and so on

I reckon our late season flurry saved a few arses from being fired and to be honest the late season surge was care free or what is called bruise free footy.....high octane footy that wouldn't stand up in finals

Anyways Simpson won more games that I though we would win so it's not all bad

With 18 team now periods mid table and lower end of the table will be longer unless you are sydeney which have cola.
 

kranky al

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#86
What would that entail?

What kind of risk? What kind of gun midfielder?
Because we really need one and we will say pretty please with sugar

Gold coast are bound to trade us one of their young guns for a fringe player and our second rounder as long as we all we wish hard enough
 

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Underdog

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#88
What I see is an, at times, aimless drift caused by overrating players and a focus on short term win-loss v the longer term building a premiership side...
The two biggest things that bother me are;
- The lack of significant list turnover because we overrate "depth" footballers like Brennan, Smith, McGinnity, Wilson etc.
- As somewhat of a by-product of the above, the lack of exposure and games that get invested into our youth from an early stage.

It's a bit of a vicious cycle, we have to hold onto kids for longer than we should because their gametime is soaked up by the middling triers until they themselves become the middling triers.
 

Daveismad

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#89
Because we really need one and we will say pretty please with sugar

Gold coast are bound to trade us one of their young guns for a fringe player and our second rounder as long as we all we wish hard enough
Other clubs seems to be able to get players through trades

Woosha was typically never risk take at the trade table and we stayed mid table and them lower.....you have to take risks to get better
 

Underdog

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#90
Darling and Kennedy off limits

Schofield, Brown are possibilities ...they would be sought after ...not nessasarily those two but players of that level

Sinclair maybe
I wouldn't be opposed to trading any of them, however, I'm not sure they're going to net us a great deal. Maybe a 2nd round pick. Is it worth it? Probably not for Brown, Schofield - perhaps, Sinclair - yes.
 

The Dodger

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#91
The two biggest things that bother me are;
- The lack of significant list turnover because we overrate "depth" footballers like Brennan, Smith, McGinnity, Wilson etc.
- As somewhat of a by-product of the above, the lack of exposure and games that get invested into our youth from an early stage.

It's a bit of a vicious cycle, we have to hold onto kids for longer than we should because their gametime is soaked up by the middling triers until they themselves become the middling triers.
Agree. Game time is a precious commodity and its frustrating to watch a young kid get the green vest and play 1 quarter and then dropped while a 25 year old limited player "plays a role" week in week out in a team that is overflowing with role players.
 

Ian Dargie

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#92
Dave I'm not expecting us to win one every year but I am expecting a sort of ruthless approach solely focused on winning one ASAP...

What I see is an, at times, aimless drift caused by overrating players and a focus on short term win-loss v the longer term building a premiership side...

Focusing short term, without that clear focus and a ruthless execution of a plan to achieve that next flag team leads to nice middling teams .... IMO


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The past four years have thrown up mixed signals about how close we are to challenging.

We finished fourth and then fifth in a year with some bad injuries. At that point, we had to assume we were in some kind of position to challenge. I'd have been flabbergasted if, after those two years, a decision had been made internally that no, sorry, this group isn't good enough, we need to rebuild.

Sure, the weakness in the midfield could have been identified and addressed more emphatically. But we tried to rebuild it - we drafted Ebert, Swift and Stevens with three top-25 picks but now have bugger all to show for that. Should we have pushed harder to trade in a gun midfielder? We got Wellingham, who has underwhelmed. But how much higher could we have realistically aimed?

Then 2013 was shit. Worsfold left and we got a new coach. The list was never going to be turned upside-down in that period of transition.

Now, after a second ordinary year, there are some decisions to be made. If the view is that this group simply does not have the fundamentals to challenge while the likes of Mackenzie, Kennedy and Hurn are around, then there will be a lot of pain to come. If people want a rebuild, they need to be resigned to three years of not much success. Start by trading LeCras for a first-rounder. He's 28. If we're rebuilding, he's not going to be there when we're back in the hunt. So trade him now. If we're talking about rebuilding, that's the reality. That's what happens when teams rebuild. Top-line 28-year-olds go elsewhere.

My view, however, is that we're not in such bad shape. Clubs rebuild when they have a generational shift. They have a group of players all finish up over a period of 2-3 years and recognise that what's left over isn't going to be competitive. St Kilda are a prime example. We, on the other hand, still have a list that is structurally sound. There's a very solid spine, a settled defence even without Glass, a strong ruck division and three very handy forwards. And some useful bits and pieces players in there as well.

The issue, as documented, is a lack of game-breaking quality in the middle. But ask yourself this: if we were able to secure Patrick Dangerfield through free agency at the end of 2015, would the list still be too shit to challenge? Now, I'm not saying that we're in a position to get Dangerfield, although I think we should have a go at him. My point is that if you're one top-liner away from possibly being good enough to challenge, you don't draw a line through half the list and start again. Rather, you figure out a way to get that one top-liner.
 

kranky al

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#93
Other clubs seems to be able to get players through trades

Woosha was typically never risk take at the trade table and we stayed mid table and them lower.....you have to take risks to get better

So have we - but its usually someone wanting to go home - or go to a premiership contender

We have to live in hope one of those gws/ gc kids gets homesickness
 

Ian Dargie

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#94
Other clubs seems to be able to get players through trades

Woosha was typically never risk take at the trade table and we stayed mid table and them lower.....you have to take risks to get better
What do you mean by "taking risks"?

It's not a meat raffle. You don't win Gary Ablett just by taking a punt.

We've traded for Wellingham and Yeo. What kind of risks would you like us to take beyond that?
 

Underdog

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#95
My view, however, is that we're not in such bad shape. Clubs rebuild when they have a generational shift. They have a group of players all finish up over a period of 2-3 years and recognise that what's left over isn't going to be competitive. St Kilda are a prime example. We, on the other hand, still have a list that is structurally sound. There's a very solid spine, a settled defence, a strong ruck division and three very handy forwards. And some useful bits and pieces players in there as well.
I also think people underrate the combined improvement gained by small improvements by numerous players.

You look at our midfield and Priddis is probably the only one who's consistently played to the standard we expect. Perhaps Hutchings too.

Shuey and Gaff have taken big strides this year but did have form lapses.

Naitanui, Selwood, Masten, Wellingham, Rosa, Yeo, Sheppard, Newman have offered less then expected due to form and/or injury and/or jail.

Lycett, Sheed and Colledge you'd expect to continue to improve.

If they can get a solid run with fitness and improve upon their 2014, our midfield will be much more formidable.
 

Ian Dargie

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#96
Darling and Kennedy off limits

Schofield, Brown are possibilities ...they would be sought after ...not nessasarily those two but players of that level

Sinclair maybe
And what do you think you'll get in return for that?

If you want to trade for a top-drawer midfielder, you have to be willing to part with something of real value. You can't just bundle together a couple of guys in the bottom half of our best side who you deem expendable.

Don't even talk to me about Sinclair. What do you think you're going to get by offering our third-choice ruckman?

Would you be willing to trade LeCras?
 
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Daveismad

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#98
The past four years have thrown up mixed signals about how close we are to challenging.

We finished fourth and then fifth in a year with some bad injuries. At that point, we had to assume we were in some kind of position to challenge. I'd have been flabbergasted if, after those two years, a decision had been made internally that no, sorry, this group isn't good enough, we need to rebuild.

Sure, the weakness in the midfield could have been identified and addressed more emphatically. But we tried to rebuild it - we drafted Ebert, Swift and Stevens with three top-25 picks but now have bugger all to show for that. Should we have pushed harder to trade in a gun midfielder? We got Wellingham, who has underwhelmed. But how much higher could we have realistically aimed?

Then 2013 was shit. Worsfold left and we got a new coach. The list was never going to be turned upside-down in that period of transition.

Now, after a second ordinary year, there are some decisions to be made. If the view is that this group simply does not have the fundamentals to challenge while the likes of Mackenzie, Kennedy and Hurn are around, then there will be a lot of pain to come. If people want a rebuild, they need to be resigned to three years of not much success. Start by trading LeCras for a first-rounder. He's 28. If we're rebuilding, he's not going to be there when we're back in the hunt. So trade him now. If we're talking about rebuilding, that's the reality. That's what happens when teams rebuild. Top-line 28-year-olds go elsewhere.

My view, however, is that we're not in such bad shape. Clubs rebuild when they have a generational shift. They have a group of players all finish up over a period of 2-3 years and recognise that what's left over isn't going to be competitive. St Kilda are a prime example. We, on the other hand, still have a list that is structurally sound. There's a very solid spine, a settled defence even without Glass, a strong ruck division and three very handy forwards. And some useful bits and pieces players in there as well.

The issue, as documented, is a lack of game-breaking quality in the middle. But ask yourself this: if we were able to secure Patrick Dangerfield through free agency at the end of 2015, would the list still be too shit to challenge? Now, I'm not saying that we're in a position to get Dangerfield, although I think we should have a go at him. My point is that if you're one top-liner away from possibly being good enough to challenge, you don't draw a line through half the list and start again. Rather, you figure out a way to get that one top-liner.
We need to draft players with pace

Swift was the slowest midfielder I have seen, every...slow and unskilled but has done ok since going to port

Stevens ....ok

Dangerfield wouldn't come west I think

We desperately need a Walters, hill type ....someone with serious wheels
 

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We need to draft players with pace

Swift was the slowest midfielder I have seen, every...slow and unskilled but has done ok since going to port

Stevens ....ok

Dangerfield wouldn't come west I think

We desperately need a Walters, hill type ....someone with serious wheels
Who is Swift? He retired.
Cripps has serious wheels.
 

Daveismad

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Who is Swift? He retired.
Cripps has serious wheels.

He's sharp......


Not in the Walters, ballentyne hill (hawks and freo version) league

We need outside spread speed. So we can hurt teams with our ruck dominance when we win clearances

Garlett from carton I hear wants to come home ....but I'm concerned about his consistency ...but if we got him for a bargain that would be great
 
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