Review Positives and Negatives vs St Kilda - Rd 4 2021

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RookiePick

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There is a massive difference between a contender getting jumped out of the gate, like we did to Port last week, and not being able to get back in the game and what we served up.

The scoreboard undeniably flattered us at half time but we had the 5 goal lead nevertheless. Good sides don't just completely fall apart and cough up a 50-1 run.

I've seen this movie before, it's called 2017. We fly out of the blocks and then fall to pieces every week.

We literally train the league to never give up against us, to be physical and aggressive.

Last night was one of the worst losses I have seen. The abject capitulation, naked panic by the players... Smfh.

I fear this performance will be defining of our season. There's simply no way to excuse what happened without being delusional.
 

sdb4884

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We haven't won two in a row now for a while since late last year. Since against St.Kilda and North Melbourne in Rounds 17-18 since then it's been: Coll L GC W WB L PA W STK L.
 

frenchconnection

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Geez some quality melts in this thread.

When I first looked at the fixture I was happy to be 3 from 3 after 6 rounds. Preseason the Saints game worried me.

One change you will likely see is Witherden in for Hurn. Thats the future.
It's not the fact we lost - it's the way we lost and the lack of effort shown in the second half that is the worrying part. Are they not fit or could they just not be bothered is the question I would like answered.
 

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whatis

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Naitanui is usually much better at following up after a stoppage that what we saw. Don't think I saw him lay a tackle though which was so disappointing because it's basically half his game. TBF the whole midfield (team?) was in corral mode and it was as pathetic to watch as it sounds.

Surely not having a first gamer as a sub is a lesson that we MUST learn. Losing a leader in the first 5 minutes... What's the saying? Plan for the best but expect the worst?

Not to say that losing Hurn early should give an experienced team a pass to play like headless chooks for two quarters. Something is up with our leadership and thank fu** it's only round 4 because I want it fixed.
 

WCErevival

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The scoreboard undeniably flattered us at half time but we had the 5 goal lead nevertheless. Good sides don't just completely fall apart and cough up a 50-1 run.
I think thats the point though. The scoreboard at half time wasn't reflecting the game. We were smashed in all areas.

Our forward line is good enough to put on some quick goals with limited opportunities but its not a sustainable strategy. I never felt comfortable even half way through the 3rd quarter. With limited mid rotations, we couldn't maintain any sort of pressure in the middle which was poor to start with.
 

Eagle Wrath

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Did anyone notice Petch's two best games, 5 goals against Port and 4 goals yesterday against the Saints, the poor guy hasnt been able to celebrate once yet. I watched his 5 goals against Port, quite a few times when it happened and his 5th goal that day he couldnt celebrate at all.

He had a great game yesterday and some good defensive pressure too besides the flashy goals. Wasn't his fault we lost.
 

FKASC

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I think nothing will change until pressure starts being applied to the coaches. It’s the same as players needing pressure from the 2s.

Even though they will get ridiculed because of 2018, and the supposed infinite credits in the bank that gives Simpson, I honestly think people need to send the club a message somehow. We know the WA media won’t do it.

Optimists will point to Simpson’s win/loss ratio, 2018, the fact that we’ve made finals so often, the fact that flags are so hard to win for interstate clubs.

But the fact remains we have a squad that - on paper - any club would be envious of. And unless something drastic changes, we are most likely going to see club legends like Kennedy retire with only one premiership to their name. That’s the same number of flags as Fletcher Roberts. Not to mention having a game changing generational talent like Naitanui likely retire without one altogether.

That thread about softy Simpson was hyperbolic, but if you see the coach as a reflection of the players’ mindset then you have no choice but to call him soft.

So what can we do to tell the coaches that this needs to be a line in the sand for this group?
 

RookiePick

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I think nothing will change until pressure starts being applied to the coaches. It’s the same as players needing pressure from the 2s.

Even though they will get ridiculed because of 2018, and the supposed infinite credits in the bank that gives Simpson, I honestly think people need to send the club a message somehow. We know the WA media won’t do it.

Optimists will point to Simpson’s win/loss ratio, 2018, the fact that we’ve made finals so often, the fact that flags are so hard to win for interstate clubs.

But the fact remains we have a squad that - on paper - any club would be envious of. And unless something drastic changes, we are most likely going to see club legends like Kennedy retire with only one premiership to their name. That’s the same number of flags as Fletcher Roberts. Not to mention having a game changing generational talent like Naitanui likely retire without one altogether.

That thread about softy Simpson was hyperbolic, but if you see the coach as a reflection of the players’ mindset then you have no choice but to call him soft.

So what can we do to tell the coaches that this needs to be a line in the sand for this group?
It's baffling that the coaching group seems to struggle to get the players up for the mental challenges of the game.

Our onfield leaders were unspeakably poor.
 

Shmiddy15

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When I heard xon wasn’t playing wafl I wasn’t as annoyed about the waterman pick, as I assumed xav must have had a niggle or something.

But then in the post game presser where it turned out xon had flown over as cover for a sick sheed... My god. So we lose shuey and sheed is sick, and yet we do absolutely nothing to bolster our midfield. Farcical.

Simpson’s response to the question of being too tall was pretty pathetic as well. He bemoans that they wanted it more and we couldn’t handle their pressure, but refused to acknowledge the possibility that it was because we were desperately short of runners.

Really disappointing stuff. We ran out the last quarter well against Gold Coast, but have been abysmal since with -17 against the dogs, -10 against port, and -30 against the saints, costing us two wins. Looking forward to seeing witherden come in for hurn and the mc calling it a day.
 
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Obeanie1

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When a midfield gets beaten forwards always find the going tough. Not only does the ball rarely get down there but when it does its often slow movement and often haphazard delivery. But he had a bad day at the office also.

Coaches will create a style of play to suit player strength. In WC's case it's built around talls. Often decisions are made with that in mind I.e. Waterman selection
Appreciate the response.

So we create a style to suit player strength, in our case quality talls. But there is no doubt in my mind that at times we over play that hand and simply play too tall. There has to be a tipping point between the the right balance.

We all go and select what we feel is a better balance and then see who is left out and think, crickey, he's too good to not play. Then we end up with more marking power and less ball getting / running power.

How do we fit Williams into the team? He's another tall that when fit we need to play.

It is a good problem to have I must say.
 

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Luuuc

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Anyone catch Simmo's presser?

Is he just trotting out nothing answers or is he deluded about that performance?
Full of praise for the saints, nil criticism of the issues everyone in this thread has highlighted.
I'm going with the deluded theory.
It seems pretty clear to me now that the guy whose full time job involves getting his team to defeat other teams is actually clueless about the machinations of AFL football. This is further backed by my knowledge of the 100% identicality between what is said in a press conference and what is said to the playing group, and the fact that when you tell players to do something they will always execute it to your complete satisfaction.
Only possibly explanation: Simmo is utterly incompetent.
 

Obeanie1

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Unpopular opinion alert .

Although natanui is the GOAT when in comes to centre bounces he is a 200cm witches hat in general play .

Marshall was instrumental in the saints over running us with his link up work and getting into the right position to take marks

This from a bloke with 1/2 a vfl game prep .

Like have an extra mid against a side with 1 mid short ( waterman selection )
This is the way to beat Nic Nat.

Out run him.

The Saints mids were really intense at stoppages, even sharked a couple off Nic.
 

KERRPOW

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And then our senior blokes started playing like millionaires. Gov and Barrass handing St Kilda goals with miskicks. Cripps and JK fighting over a perfect Petch kick to them in the pocket. Darling dropping a sitter in an important moment (though thats just the standard)
Its always the same players (youve mentioned) that have brain fades that cost us momentum.
 

Godfather32

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Positives: Missed the game, got drunk and had a really good night with mates.
Negative: It seems incomprehensible that a bunch of numptys like us on bigfooty can see the correlation between playing too tall and not being able to run out games but an entire AFL coaching panel can't, but here we are...again
 

greatwhiteshark

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Someone has a short memory.

Why did we beat Port Adelaide in the SF in 2017?

Why did we beat Collingwood at the MCG for the first time in 23 years in 2018?

Why did we beat Richmond at home in 2018, when they were flying?

Why did we beat Collingwood in the GF after being down by 30 points in the first quarter?

Why did we beat Adelaide in 2019 when they were up by 40 points midway through the third term?

Why did we beat Hawthorn at the MCG in 2019, in the wet?

Why did we beat St Kilda in 2020 when our midfield consisted entirely of Tim Kelly, Nic and a bunch of kids?

All of these are examples to the contrary, and yet you act like they never happened
We have had some great wins like every Club has. It is the losses and how they happen that define you.
You can’t keep simply ignoring how these losses keep happening, now maybe we are a below average side and these types of losses happen to those types of sides on a regular basis.
But are we not supposed to be a contender? We had them on toast, only had to try for another 20 minutes after half time and the game would be over, what happened at half time for these guys to think job is done and opposition won’t put up a fight?
Its not good enough for a group this experienced.
 

JezMez

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I think nothing will change until pressure starts being applied to the coaches. It’s the same as players needing pressure from the 2s.

Even though they will get ridiculed because of 2018, and the supposed infinite credits in the bank that gives Simpson, I honestly think people need to send the club a message somehow. We know the WA media won’t do it.

Optimists will point to Simpson’s win/loss ratio, 2018, the fact that we’ve made finals so often, the fact that flags are so hard to win for interstate clubs.

But the fact remains we have a squad that - on paper - any club would be envious of. And unless something drastic changes, we are most likely going to see club legends like Kennedy retire with only one premiership to their name. That’s the same number of flags as Fletcher Roberts. Not to mention having a game changing generational talent like Naitanui likely retire without one altogether.

That thread about softy Simpson was hyperbolic, but if you see the coach as a reflection of the players’ mindset then you have no choice but to call him soft.

So what can we do to tell the coaches that this needs to be a line in the sand for this group?
Unfortunately so many people are simply delusional.

Simmo talked about being too tall. Maybe we were, but it wasn't the key factor.

People keep blaming Cripps or Darling or Gov. This guys can play when the midfield fires. Unfortunately, every game we have lost in the last 3 years has been because we haven't been able to compete enough for the contested ball.

People keep saying we need to learn to stick a tackle. This is not the problem. The problem is we are being specifically taught not to tackle. Not all the time, but a lot of the time the players are expected to to maintain position rather than attack the player with the ball.

I simply don't understand why the media can't see what our game plan is (it's more than just holding the ball until an option avails and then hitting targets by foot).

Right now, "see ball, get ball, move by foot, kick it forward to talls" is a better game plan. It's a nothing game plan, but it's still better than what we are doing.

As for telling the club - unfortunately we have to wait until a premiership window is shut for them to work it out.

I have no problem losing games and playing sh*t footy during a rebuild, or when that window closes - it's part of footy. But wasting a premiership window on bad gameplan is no cool with me.
 

Ambrose Burnside

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I love Liam Ryan, probably my favourite player atm, but he played like sh*t yesterday, and every time he did something dumb he had a big, dumb grin on his face.

Pissed me off.

Nek minnut the tone deaf media muppets we have will trot out a clip of him curling one though from behind the goals during the warm up.
 
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mad_eagle

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Simmo & the MC should rightly cop it from all angles this week, everyone could see we were going to be short on runners as soon as they named Waterman. It just baffles me beyond all belief as to why O’Neill wasn’t the straight replacement for Shuey.

Clearly he should have been, as we ended up resorting to Jones & Cripps in the guts midway through the fourth quarter. No wonder the saints were waltzing it out with ease...

Haven’t been this ropable/filthy/furious with a loss since the 2016 EF...similar sort of theme to it as well. sh*t selection that gets badly exposed on game day.

As for leadership on the field, it’s non existent without Shuey or Hurn running around. Gov is not captain material...yet he’s the man the boys are looking too until round 14 or so. Hopefully Bunga gets back quick, need his calming influence on the group.
 

Ambrose Burnside

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Our win vs St Kilda last year was one of our best home and away wins ever, and we followed it up with one of our worst losses given the position we were in.

It's all between the ears. Of the players AND match committee.

Sack the media department and use the cash saved on some psychologists.
 
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ghostbat12

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When a midfield gets beaten forwards always find the going tough. Not only does the ball rarely get down there but when it does its often slow movement and often haphazard delivery. But he had a bad day at the office also.

Coaches will create a style of play to suit player strength. In WC's case it's built around talls. Often decisions are made with that in mind I.e. Waterman selection
So how are we going to solve the midfield being beaten problem? Apart from bringing yeo and shuey in, who aren’t around for a while.

The rest are not your toughest out there (not saying they aren’t tough, but they are slight and not bulls).
 

swingdog

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[/QUOTE]

Serious question Bond, what happened with Darling? He kicked two goals in the 1st 5 min, then got only 4 more posessions for basically the entire game?

[/QUOTE]

At the game, he was isolated one-on-one a lot of the time - Kennedy seemed to roam further upfield - and the St. Kilda defender played him close and played well. Much like we should have done with King.
 

truman

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I mentioned this exact point in the gameday thread.

The effect of their on field leadership cannot be understated, especially when the tide turned in that third quarter.

It was especially noticeable with the rebounding/attacking function of the backline - generally Barass and Gov defend well, but they shat the bed with their kicking at times, and Hurn never makes such mistakes.

With the midfield, Shuey is the best tackler and gives a lot of structure to our stoppages. XON should've been selected over Snake, though I doubt it would've changed the result to a W.
What's the point of being quite a mature team if missing two or three experienced players results in a significant loss of leadership. Yes Hurn was a big loss but surely the experience of Shep, McGovern can cover the leadership considering we only have one inexperienced defender in rotham and even he's been on the list for 3-4 years
 

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