Review Positives and Negatives vs St Kilda - Rd 4 2021

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EagleShore

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What's the point of being quite a mature team if missing two or three experienced players results in a significant loss of leadership. Yes Hurn was a big loss but surely the experience of Shep, McGovern can cover the leadership considering we only have one inexperienced defender in rotham and even he's been on the list for 3-4 years
You are right...this is the subtext of my post - pointing out that the loss of their leadership likely had a significant effect on the performance is an absolute blight on the rest of the more senior/seasoned players.
 

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ghostbat12

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I saw the presser, made no assumptions, basic or otherwise.
I was questioning where he was coming from with his answers.
He was clear on what issues were. Midfield and stoppages.

I am not sure what you were looking for. It’s pretty basic stuff, work the ass off more than opposition and we win as we have the talent.

It wasn’t the tactics.
 

ukurrie

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I know we’re busy renaming the club Origami FC, in preparation for the upcoming folding ceremony. But if you do take a moment to glance at the ladder, there’s some pretty good teams near or below us. Some of whom who have had easier fixtures than us.

There might be only 3 teams who are happy with their starts and you might argue only 1 of those is sustainable.

Let’s beat the pies, play encouragingly well against Geelong, and the fixture will open up.
 

JezMez

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It wasn’t the tactics.
But it is the tactics. The tactics don't lend themselves to winning the contested possession count. The way we play, we don't have to win the contested possession count to win the game. But that's a slippery slope and it's exactly why we lost must win games in the last two seasons. Simmo's game plan has put us on that slippery slope for the last 2 seasons and we keep coming unstuck.
 

JezMez

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I know we’re busy renaming the club Origami FC, in preparation for the upcoming folding ceremony. But if you do take a moment to glance at the ladder, there’s some pretty good teams near or below us. Some of whom who have had easier fixtures so far.

It’s almost like there are only 3 teams who are happy with their starts and you might argue only 1 of those is sustainable.
It's irrelevant though. That loss yesterday in itself - also irrelevant. The total capitulation and mental weakness of the team on the day - also mostly irrelevant.

We play a game style that's light on contested ball. It's delivered us 6th and 8th over the last two seasons (from being flag favourites).

We're still playing that game style and we're still getting exposed. That's the issue. The chances of winning three finals playing like this are also slim. That's also an issue.
 

Pulsedriver

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I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone on this board who wouldnt say "mids". ;)

Its a bigger problem than that though - its the way we are playing the game, or more specifically the fact that we dont want to play into any type of contested ball situation. That problem starts in the midfield, but its endemic all over the field - too many players instinctually "guarding grass" instead of applying direct pressure to the man with the ball. And dont even get me started on our tackling ability...
Was it not was James Carville, midfield strategist in the Malthouse regime, that once said, It's the midfield, stupid?
 

Winky

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I know we’re busy renaming the club Origami FC, in preparation for the upcoming folding ceremony. But if you do take a moment to glance at the ladder, there’s some pretty good teams near or below us. Some of whom who have had easier fixtures than us.

There might be only 3 teams who are happy with their starts and you might argue only 1 of those is sustainable.

Let’s beat the pies, play encouragingly well against Geelong, and the fixture will open up.
Spot on. Mostly the teams who played finals who were later in their prep. In Geelong case, like us, they have key players unavailable but Richmond is not looking as good, Collingwood is poor and the Saints have been poor until Saturday. Bulldogs have not left Victorian and have had some easy kills.
 

ukurrie

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It's irrelevant though. That loss yesterday in itself - also irrelevant. The total capitulation and mental weakness of the team on the day - also mostly irrelevant.

We play a game style that's light on contested ball. It's delivered us 6th and 8th over the last two seasons (from being flag favourites).

We're still playing that game style and we're still getting exposed. That's the issue. The chances of winning three finals playing like this are also slim. That's also an issue.
Mate, you might be right. In fact, part of me is preparing myself for the reality the you are predicting. So, I am not saying you are wrong.

But it is relevant that we are in Round 4, and not Round 19. It is relevant that we smashed Port Adelaide in contested ball, which shows we can play that game. Can we switch to that kind of game when plan A is not working midway through a quarter, as opposed to preparing all week for it - not sure.

It is relevant that we have a smart coach, a smart leadership group, skill and the time to adjust.

And this is not a pop at you, because I include myself in this, but what is irrelevant are our opinions and predictions on an internet board as to what will happen in 5 months time. Like, there is a season to be played here, there is no other option. Let's just play on and keep an open mind.

Having said that, it is barely 24 hours since one of the most gutting losses I have been to, so have at it.
 

JezMez

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Mate, you might be right. In fact, part of me is preparing myself for the reality the you are predicting. So, I am not saying you are wrong.

But it is relevant that we are in Round 4, and not Round 19. It is relevant that we smashed Port Adelaide in contested ball, which shows we can play that game. Can we switch to that kind of game when plan A is not working midway through a quarter, as opposed to preparing all week for it - not sure.

It is relevant that we have a smart coach, a smart leadership group, skill and the time to adjust.

And this is not a pop at you, because I include myself in this, but what is irrelevant are our opinions and predictions on an internet board as to what will happen in 5 months time. Like, there is a season to be played here, there is no other option. Let's just play on and keep an open mind.

Having said that, it is barely 24 hours since one of the most gutting losses I have been to, so have at it.
I think at this stage there is no choice. Simmo has to try and win the flag by trying to convince his players to get the balance between contested ball and zoning off (or whatever that thing we do is called).

In both the last 2 seasons we lost games in the final home and away rounds that dropped us out of the top 4. On both occasions I put the queue in the rack - i knew before those games had finished that we couldn't win the flag. This year, round 4, my queue is in the rack. I understand things may change but I won't be getting my hopes up.

Consider last year - first few games we were rubbish, then we got a run-on and we were flag favourites (for about half the season). Even at that point I had an uneasy feeling about how we play. And our worst nightmare happened - the wheels fell off. Every time we lose, we get smashed in contested ball. Teams know to hit us with guerilla warfare and we crumble.

But at the end of the year if we miss top 4, or crumble in a heap in the finals, I'm going to be annoyed that Simmo didn't try a change up. He's asking his team to play exact football - that exact balance between contested ball and zoning off. It's clearly very hard to do.
 

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wooshwhisperer

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This year, round 4, my queue is in the rack
I think at this stage there is no choice. Simmo has to try and win the flag by trying to convince his players to get the balance between contested ball and zoning off (or whatever that thing we do is called).

In both the last 2 seasons we lost games in the final home and away rounds that dropped us out of the top 4. On both occasions I put the queue in the rack - i knew before those games had finished that we couldn't win the flag. This year, round 4, my queue is in the rack. I understand things may change but I won't be getting my hopes up.

Consider last year - first few games we were rubbish, then we got a run-on and we were flag favourites (for about half the season). Even at that point I had an uneasy feeling about how we play. And our worst nightmare happened - the wheels fell off. Every time we lose, we get smashed in contested ball. Teams know to hit us with guerilla warfare and we crumble.

But at the end of the year if we miss top 4, or crumble in a heap in the finals, I'm going to be annoyed that Simmo didn't try a change up. He's asking his team to play exact football - that exact balance between contested ball and zoning off. It's clearly very hard to do.
After #wavotes this is called doing a Zak... (of the Kirkup variety) ;)
 

shooshka

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I think at this stage there is no choice. Simmo has to try and win the flag by trying to convince his players to get the balance between contested ball and zoning off (or whatever that thing we do is called).

In both the last 2 seasons we lost games in the final home and away rounds that dropped us out of the top 4. On both occasions I put the queue in the rack - i knew before those games had finished that we couldn't win the flag. This year, round 4, my queue is in the rack. I understand things may change but I won't be getting my hopes up.

Consider last year - first few games we were rubbish, then we got a run-on and we were flag favourites (for about half the season). Even at that point I had an uneasy feeling about how we play. And our worst nightmare happened - the wheels fell off. Every time we lose, we get smashed in contested ball. Teams know to hit us with guerilla warfare and we crumble.

But at the end of the year if we miss top 4, or crumble in a heap in the finals, I'm going to be annoyed that Simmo didn't try a change up. He's asking his team to play exact football - that exact balance between contested ball and zoning off. It's clearly very hard to do.
I reckon there is a pretty big * on the point you've made (the point is correct). Shuey and Yeo make a massive difference to out contested ball numbers. Teams at the moment are more willing to defend Kelly but otherwise attack around stoppages, we just don't have other breakaway pace.

If we can get them back post bye, and if we are in decent shape (which would be a max of 2 more losses) then we are still a chance. It's sad to rely on injured players coming in to fill deficiencies, but they are both quality so makes sense we miss them.

On SM-G973F using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Dylan82

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I love Liam Ryan, probably my favourite player atm, but he played like sh*t yesterday, and every time he did something dumb he had a big, dumb grin on his face.

Pissed me off.

Nek minnut the tone deaf media muppets we have will trot out a clip of him curling one though from behind the goals during the warm up.

Yeah, I may be his sponsor this year, but can't deny that Ryan has had an underwhelming start to the year and was terrible against St Kilda.

The game was screaming for someone like him to stand up and make an impact around stoppages, yet all he managed to do was kick it out on the full...

And then laugh. Wasn't impressed.
 

Freomaniac

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I think nothing will change until pressure starts being applied to the coaches. It’s the same as players needing pressure from the 2s.

Even though they will get ridiculed because of 2018, and the supposed infinite credits in the bank that gives Simpson, I honestly think people need to send the club a message somehow. We know the WA media won’t do it.

Optimists will point to Simpson’s win/loss ratio, 2018, the fact that we’ve made finals so often, the fact that flags are so hard to win for interstate clubs.

But the fact remains we have a squad that - on paper - any club would be envious of. And unless something drastic changes, we are most likely going to see club legends like Kennedy retire with only one premiership to their name. That’s the same number of flags as Fletcher Roberts. Not to mention having a game changing generational talent like Naitanui likely retire without one altogether.

That thread about softy Simpson was hyperbolic, but if you see the coach as a reflection of the players’ mindset then you have no choice but to call him soft.

So what can we do to tell the coaches that this needs to be a line in the sand for this group?
It also helps if your are a well run club Like West coast.... Saying that, I do agree to a point its Hard to make a grand final as a non victorian club. You guys won the 2018 flag buy winning 10 in a row after a round 1 shock home loss to the swans.

West coast had to win enough games and have good percentage to get top 2.

Even then, you had to be fortunate on the day to be good enough and hope for another non-vic side to make it like 2005-6.

Saying that, In theory, its sort of easier to make finals if you are a non-vic side. Just need the 12 wins and good percentage. Grab those 9 or 10 home wins and those 2 or 3 away wins against bottom 6 clubs. Then hope you can also pinch a home final to increase your chances of a finals win too.

Freo has been badly run and have been in some cases unlucky.
 
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Freomaniac

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They say that the evolution of a team on their way to being a contender:
- basket case, 4 wins in a year, all at home.
- win half of games at home, snatch 1 or 2 away but generally basket case away
- win 75% at home, losses at home are competitive, still snatch 1 or 2 away but more competive in losses
- impenetrable fortress at home, win 3 to 4 away
- impenetrable fortress at home, win vast majority away (a play anywhere anytime team and now a legitimate contender)

what we are seeing, is this the reverse of the above. The decline? Our last 2.5 years correlates to this.

'We' keep expecting the champion to rise off the floor one more time. But he's not a champion anymore, his peak was quite a while ago. Yet we cling onto that fading dream.

One premiership out of this star studded group is a grossly underachieving team.
Saying that.... As I just posted, it helps when the club is well run and theres luck on your side....

What you posted, sort of reminded me about the demons gradual improvement from 2013-18 before they dropped.
 

The wily weagle

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Sometimes when we are getting crushed around the middle and the contest, the instruction to Nic Nat should be very old school and very basic:

Smash the ball forward as hard and as deep as you can

He was trying to spoon feed our mids, but it just wasn't working yesterday because they were being killed in tight, or St Kilda were sharking his taps. At least if he smashes the ball forward we win the territory ball and end up in a better field position to be able to score
 

BlueandGoldforever

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Sometimes when we are getting crushed around the middle and the contest, the instruction to Nic Nat should be very old school and very basic:

Smash the ball forward as hard and as deep as you can

He was trying to spoon feed our mids, but it just wasn't working yesterday because they were being killed in tight, or St Kilda were sharking his taps. At least if he smashes the ball forward we win the territory ball and end up in a better field position to be able to score
Yes, he rarely does that and when, as you correctly stated, our taps were being sharked, it only needed a little bit of creativity to mix it up.
 

TheGhostOfJohnBelushi

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It also helps if your are a well run club Like West coast.... Saying that, I do agree to a point its Hard to make a grand final as a non victorian club. You guys won the 2018 flag buy winning 10 in a row after a round 1 shock home loss to the swans.

West coast had to win enough games and have good percentage to get top 2.

Even then, you had to be fortunate on the day to be good enough and hope for another non-vic side to make it like 2005-6.

Saying that, In theory, its sort of easier to make finals if you are a non-vic side. Just need the 12 wins and good percentage. Grab those 9 or 10 home wins and those 2 or 3 away wins against bottom 6 clubs. Then hope you can also pinch a home final to increase your chances of a finals win too.

Freo has been badly run and have been in some cases unlucky.
Don't think the round 1 loss that year was a shock. We were a middling side expected to drop a bit coming into 2018. Sydney hadn't started their descent.

I see what you're saying about making finals but tbh it's not really easier. Otherwise Fremantle wouldn't miss so much, right? The argument that Vic sides get a heap of neutral games doesn't wash with me. Big deal if you face another Vic side. You're playing at home, often weeks on end. If you're a decent team, you win against the non-decent teams. And you can then load up to have a big crack, whether it be a big away game or a decent team coming to play at your ground. I still remember 2019 where Richmond rested Dusty against Carlton, knowing they have the quality to win, so they could load up for the Eagles the following week at the MCG, knowing that was the much tougher game. Non-Vic sides don't really get that much of a luxury. Imagine the Eagles flying to Melbourne to play Carlton and resting someone to save them for Richmond in Perth the following week? Would never happen.

It's way tougher for non-Vic sides to qualify. They have to be a good side first. Ladder is always getting clogged up with trash Vic sides who are just the best of a bad batch.
 

eaglesnutcase

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No he is not. Oscar is a fwd.
Williams is 200cm. Oscar is 194cm
To be quite honest i thought we looked better with OA in the middle.At least he never takes his eye off the ball and he follows up.
Ive brought this up before but surely Gov can have a run in the guts?Yes and Ryan.
The Eagles dont win by huge margins very often because we have always been more worried about not losing than we are about winning.
Blind Freddie could see we were up sh*t creek. We make the obligatory "Hunter to the forward/backline" move thats all we ever try.
If Gov [for example] is having a dirty day dont put him forward;we've got forwards!!!!!! Put him in the middle where he/they can affect play.Our coachinfg staff have always been ultra conservative.
 

DieSwans

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Still feeling this one hahah

Being a Melbourne fan, I've been at my fair share of horrid games over the last 25 years...

From memory, this would probably be top 3 most hated...

Top one obviously being the 2005 GF and also that sh*t show we lost against Carlton in 2014(?) where we blew a 5 goal lead in the last 5 minutes and lost by under a goal.

Probably didn't help I had a Saints flog being a flog next to me

We have no campaigner about us...we are too nice.
 

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