Mega Thread Possible trades in 2015 for the Crows

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Truly appreciate the comments, but many people are ignoring the basic fact that most young AFL Draftees don't want to live in SA. Not all, but most. And that's not limited to AFL, but young people in general. If you haven't noticed, there's a flood of young people leaving Adelaide, heading East. Are there people coming to SA? Sure, but they're typically not young people in their late teens/early twenties from interstate.

Is Adelaide a sh*t town? A lousy place to live? No, not at all. But the fact of the matter is there is helluva lot less to see and do in Adelaide....off the field. And more the point, there are far fewer business opportunities in Adelaide than in the Eastern States. If you disagree with that, then you're way, way, waaaaaaaaaay off base. Added to that, the top players like Dangermouse (and many others) always consider these issues when looking at which club (and state) they want to stay in. If we want to get some real gun non-SA talent onto our list, we need to do that much more via the Trade Table, not via The Draft. We also have to do a lot more to entice quality talent to stay (hope you're reading this 'Roo). I'd be putting joint business investments on the table, such as pubs similar to the Alma. But if you leave the Crows, you'll be bought out and won't be able to retain your investment. We need to seriously think outside the square on this, and be prepared to play hardball. Pressure, lean, sway, influence - all of the above. If you want to leave this club, then we'l go out of our way to ensure your off-field interests suffer. Is that nice? No, but that's what needs to be done.

If you agree, great. If not, then as I've said - just have to agree to disagree.

Above all else, I'm a staunch realist, and always look at the bottom line in any equation.
 

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Samcro24

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Truly appreciate the comments, but many people are ignoring the basic fact that most young AFL Draftees don't want to live in SA. Not all, but most. And that's not limited to AFL, but young people in general. If you haven't noticed, there's a flood of young people leaving Adelaide, heading East. Are there people coming to SA? Sure, but they're typically not young people in their late teens/early twenties from interstate.

Is Adelaide a sh*t town? A lousy place to live? No, not at all. But the fact of the matter is there is helluva lot less to see and do in Adelaide....off the field. And more the point, there are far fewer business opportunities in Adelaide than in the Eastern States. If you disagree with that, then you're way, way, waaaaaaaaaay off base. Added to that, the top players like Dangermouse (and many others) always consider these issues when looking at which club (and state) they want to stay in. If we want to get some real gun non-SA talent onto our list, we need to do that much more via the Trade Table, not via The Draft. We also have to do a lot more to entice quality talent to stay (hope you're reading this 'Roo). I'd be putting joint business investments on the table, such as pubs similar to the Alma. But if you leave the Crows, you'll be bought out and won't be able to retain your investment. We need to seriously think outside the square on this, and be prepared to play hardball. Pressure, lean, sway, influence - all of the above. If you want to leave this club, then we'l go out of our way to ensure your off-field interests suffer. Is that nice? No, but that's what needs to be done.

If you agree, great. If not, then as I've said - just have to agree to disagree.

Above all else, I'm a staunch realist, and always look at the bottom line in any equation.
It's probably worth examining what makes a player like Sloane go from crying in the toilets when drafted to Adelaide, to loving the city and club*. What makes Douglas refuse a trade back to victoria when he was borderline best 22? McKay has also refused a trade. So has Lyons (and he was hardly getting a game). This doesnt seem to come up that much in player retention discussions. Not saying its a non-issue but the focus is always on what we've lost. You make some vaild points but are coming from the angle that all (or most) victorians will leave, when so far it's a minority.

*Hope I havent jinxed Rory's signature. :oops:
 

Jeffcrowe

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I Like your points. Sometimes i feel like the list managers are also swayed by the media that VIC has the best talent. Just take a look at who got drafted. SA killed every team in the U18 Champs and a very low number of their mob got picked. Doesnt make sense.
Saw a bit of the carnival and it actually does make sense ...the SA boys were the classic example of champion team beats a team of champions .... Eg wigg was the SA MVP and daniel was not far off ....these guys aren't in same bracket as petracca brayshaw duggan deGoey etc etc
I think as time goes on kids are more aware that they will have to leave home to start an AFL career and are totally up for it, they are professional and just want to play in the AFL

It seems recruiters are concentrating less on the home grown talent if anything
 

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I Like your points. Sometimes i feel like the list managers are also swayed by the media that VIC has the best talent. Just take a look at who got drafted. SA killed every team in the U18 Champs and a very low number of their mob got picked. Doesnt make sense.
Wells took Dean Gore, Corey Gregson and Tom Read ( rookie) all SA players. And so far, very happy with the picks. Wells does think also outside the Vic box too.

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Jenkins, Crouch, Lynch, Brown Jacobs, Betts, many of our best players have been traded to the club. Can't say I agree with you.
Which is why you pick the best talent, because if they do leave you have trade value.

Whilst they psych test players, you can never be entirely sure what they will do.

I'm more interested in getting good characters with talent - even if they end up leaving... Over talented nutcases.
 

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What my mate told me is that in The Draft, The Crows need to focus wholly and solely on local SA talent, where all their friends and family live in Adelaide. Dangermouse is a great get, but what's the point in getting talent like that if they're going to walk?
Really sick of hearing this on three facets; 1) why the f.ck would you not draft Patrick Dangerfield regardless or where he ends up. We're drafting an asset which we paid way under value for. Its like buying a Ferrari for $75,000, if you can't keep it sell the f.cking thing for $300,000. Our whole list could be looked at in terms of value and equity. If you can buy an asset for unders and sell for more down the track if you need to, do it. Some spud from the same 2007 draft wouldn't buy us Aish if they left. 2) they don't all go back home, in fact it's a minority. 3) Dangerfield hasn't bloody left yet.
 
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Mattrox

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I Like your points. Sometimes i feel like the list managers are also swayed by the media that VIC has the best talent. Just take a look at who got drafted. SA killed every team in the U18 Champs and a very low number of their mob got picked. Doesnt make sense.
Exept the SA pick a team that is able to win and that is our focus. While the Vics are split into Metro and Country and will pick players with a view to showcase them for the draft.
 

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Really sick of hearing this on three facets; 1) why the f.ck would you not draft Patrick Dangerfield regardless or where he ends up. We're drafting an asset which we paid way under value for. Its like buying a Ferrari for $75,000, if you can't keep it sell the f.cking thing for $300,000. Our whole list could be looked at in terms of value and equity. If you can buy an asset for unders and sell for more down the track if you need to, do it. Some spud from the same 2007 draft wouldn't buy us Aish if they left. 2) they don't all go back home, in fact it's a minority. 3) Dangerfield hasn't bloody left yet.
The analogy you used is sound. However, how does it explain how we managed to draft Smack? Is it like buying a dodgy second hand car that you are desperate to get rid off and will accept anything for it, including way unders?
 

Hemi

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The analogy you used is sound. However, how does it explain how we managed to draft Smack? Is it like buying a dodgy second hand car that you are desperate to get rid off and will accept anything for it, including way unders?
Bad investment. Paying $50,000 for a second hand Falcon. Depreciates until it's worth nothing, give it away for wrecking.

The analogy doesn't make complete sense because we don't know what we've bought properly until we try it out over a four year period but essentially Dangerfield is the Ferrari we paid $75,000 for.

The point I suppose was if Dangerfield left us and we were to have the opportunity to go back in time and draft someone else we'd be stupid if we did because his value is way more than anyone else we might have picked in that draft. We got a top 5 (as rated by Herald Sun and his peers and AFL tracker thing) AFL player for pick 10 one of many drafts. There may be an argument to trade when the value is highest (which we should have done with Tippett who was also a good investment apart from poor administration) but I still hold that we're best off drafting for value.
 

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dayton

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Wells took Dean Gore, Corey Gregson and Tom Read ( rookie) all SA players. And so far, very happy with the picks. Wells does think also outside the Vic box too.

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There is something profoundly annoying about your need to finish every post with GO Catters.

If it was in your signature I'd understand but it's not.
 
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The other issue is the handling of players already on our list. In particular, certain things we have to look out for.
A perfect example is when a player buys a property interstate. If it's part of a whole string of investment properties - the sort that would be used for renting out to tenants, then that's one thing. But when they buy a single property that's a semi-palace....not something bought to rent out to tenants....then that player needs to be Traded. And if that new property occurs at the same time that the player breaks up with an existing partner, then the player needs to be Traded yesterday.

Forgetting Footy for a moment - if a player buys an interstate grand palace that doesn't look like a rental - what does that tell you? And if they split with a partner around the same time. No red flags or alarm bells? Nothing? No need for concern? You don't reckon they've made up their mind? No?

Also, there needs to be a blanket rule at The Crows - no exceptions. Any player coming up on Free Agency needs to ink a new contract before they hit Free Agency. And if they don't agree to a Trade, drop them from the List immediately - don't even let them train with the team. Nothing. No, "ifs", "ands", or "buts" about it. Some people may agree with the points I've raised above, although I'll readily admit most won't. The problem is, nobody at The Crows has been prepared to think long term, when it comes to List Management. If we took this staunch approach, I reckon we'd lose some gun players in the short term, no question about it. But it would send a big, bold message to new recruits coming to The Crows - we put the Club first over any one Player. We would only need to take this approach once, and it would never happen again. Remember the approach The Power took with Nick Stevens? This is the exact approach The Crows need to take with star players. Let them get picked up by GWS or Melbourne in the Draft, then see how they like it.

There are two other issues The Crows Hierarchy needs to seriously take up - scrapping any further Salary Cap concessions (i.e. Sydney), and joining forces with some other names that are raising the issue of Trading Players against their will; I'm fairly sure Damien Hardwick was raising this point in the media. When players get Drafted, they have no say at all in which Club they play for, yet the moment they arrive at their new club....they're already nominating a Club of their choice. This has got to stop. Until players reach Free Agency (which I strongly support), they have no say what Club they play for. At the moment, what's going on is stuffing us up bigtime. There are some interstate players on our list that seem to want to stay, granted, but many of them don't have a list of rival Clubs banging down the doors of their Player Managers. A lot of the interstate players we've got (not all) - they aren't what I'd call game breakers. A lot of them are signing new contracts because I honestly doubt many of them would get a gig elsewhere. What do they poll in Brownlow Votes?
 
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Jenkins, Crouch, Lynch, Brown Jacobs, Betts, many of our best players have been traded to the club. Can't say I agree with you.
Betts and Jacobs have been great pick ups. The rest? They are definitely good players, but hardly what I'd call regular stars. And while you've raised a few names, I'm glad the you mentioned Jenkins. I'm of the opinion that it's time for Jenkins to seriously step up. I'm tired of people banging on endlessly about him being an ex-basketballer that's new to footy. He's got serious pace and is strong, and he's been on our list for long enough; if he doesn't come up with the goods on a regular basis this year, he needs to go. I want to see a decent goal tally for the year, or he can clear out his locker.

The problem with The Crows is that we've good a list of reasonably good players, but they just aren't taking that next step. And haven't for some time. This reflects exactly where the Crows have been finishing for years - Mid Ladder. Not altogether bad, but not serious Finals material either. I'd rather bottom out, stack up on some top Draft Picks, then make a serious pitch for a Flag.
 
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It's probably worth examining what makes a player like Sloane go from crying in the toilets when drafted to Adelaide, to loving the city and club*. What makes Douglas refuse a trade back to victoria when he was borderline best 22? McKay has also refused a trade. So has Lyons (and he was hardly getting a game). This doesnt seem to come up that much in player retention discussions. Not saying its a non-issue but the focus is always on what we've lost. You make some vaild points but are coming from the angle that all (or most) victorians will leave, when so far it's a minority.

*Hope I havent jinxed Rory's signature. :oops:
This is one of the replies to this thread that does have merit - well put.

I'm rapt that we picked up Rory....if he stays. McKay? He's one of the players I wanted to Trade a hundred years ago. Good enough to attract attention from other Clubs, but clearly he's not getting any better at The Crows. We need to wiling to Trade some (semi) "good" players to make a serious assault on a Flag.
The thing is, we are getting some interstate players that want to stay, no question about it. But my opinion is that because there's no massive interest from rival Clubs, and it's unlikely they'd command decent money elsewhere. At least not for most of them. If/when we can trade players against their will (now that Free Trade has arrived), then we'll be able to make some serious inroads.

But I appreciate your post.
 
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Really sick of hearing this on three facets; 1) why the f.ck would you not draft Patrick Dangerfield regardless or where he ends up. We're drafting an asset which we paid way under value for. Its like buying a Ferrari for $75,000, if you can't keep it sell the f.cking thing for $300,000. Our whole list could be looked at in terms of value and equity. If you can buy an asset for unders and sell for more down the track if you need to, do it. Some spud from the same 2007 draft wouldn't buy us Aish if they left. 2) they don't all go back home, in fact it's a minority. 3) Dangerfield hasn't bloody left yet.
In theory, I'd agree with you 101%, but there's a problem. I should've clarified this earlier, which I didn't - my fault. We're not in a pure free market here, if you want to use that term.

When players do leave The Crows for another club, the destination Club often won't Trade players in return (or at least not the ones we want). Or we don't get adequate compensation, in terms of Draft Picks.
e.g. If Dangermouse wants to go to, say Hawthorn, and they've finished first or second on the Ladder - their first round Draft Pick is 17 or 18. No way in Hell would I want to give up Dangermouse for a Round 17 or 18 pick. And that's assuming Hawthorn would even give up a First Round pick, which I doubt they would - most of the Top Clubs are tough and smart negotiators. There's absolutely no point in Trading Star Players for Draft Picks from a Club that's finished in the Top 3 on the Ladder. Forget it.

The crux of this matter is that when Gun Players do leave the Crows, we don't get adequate compensation when they leave - this is what's crippling us. What happened when TidBit and Gunston left the Crows? What did we get in return?

If Dangermouse does choose to leave, which I think is a forgone conclusion - if we're able to get a Draft Pick of #3 or higher, or a Trade for any player we want - then I'd be rapt. But this isn't happening, and is one of the reasons why I want us to take a different approach to our List Management. If and when we can Trade players anywhere we want, then we can get true value from an investment. At the moment, that's not happening, and is why I want to take a different approach to how we manage our List.

If and when we can enforce Trades, anywhere the Clubs see fit - then I'd pick Players in The Draft based purely on talent, and not because they're SA lads.
 

Hemi

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In theory, I'd agree with you 101%, but there's a problem. I should've clarified this earlier, which I didn't - my fault. We're not in a pure free market here, if you want to use that term.

When players do leave The Crows for another club, the destination Club often won't Trade players in return (or at least not the ones we want). Or we don't get adequate compensation, in terms of Draft Picks.
e.g. If Dangermouse wants to go to, say Hawthorn, and they've finished first or second on the Ladder - their first round Draft Pick is 17 or 18. No way in Hell would I want to give up Dangermouse for a Round 17 or 18 pick. And that's assuming Hawthorn would even give up a First Round pick, which I doubt they would - most of the Top Clubs are tough and smart negotiators. There's absolutely no point in Trading Star Players for Draft Picks from a Club that's finished in the Top 3 on the Ladder. Forget it.

The crux of this matter is that when Gun Players do leave the Crows, we don't get adequate compensation when they leave - this is what's crippling us. What happened when TidBit and Gunston left the Crows? What did we get in return?

If Dangermouse does choose to leave, which I think is a forgone conclusion - if we're able to get a Draft Pick of #3 or higher, or a Trade for any player we want - then I'd be rapt. But this isn't happening, and is one of the reasons why I want us to take a different approach to our List Management. If and when we can Trade players anywhere we want, then we can get true value from an investment. At the moment, that's not happening, and is why I want to take a different approach to how we manage our List.

If and when we can enforce Trades, anywhere the Clubs see fit - then I'd pick Players in The Draft based purely on talent, and not because they're SA lads.
I hear you and understand where you're coming from however;
  • What if Dangerfield and Sloane don't leave? should have we still picked an SA player out of principle? and who would have they been? Ebert probably would have went to Port anyway, so tell me who else?
  • What if we got better at determining their head space around contracts and traded them a year before it was due? we could have got pick 7+ for Tippett and (supposedly) pick 2 and 3 for Dangerfield (if not at least two low first rounders).
  • You're ignoring that it is a small percentage of players that have actually left because of homesickness or Adelaidesucksness. Dangerfield obviously doesn't think Adelaide sucks.
We would be in a far worse position if we had not drafted Dangerfield, Sloane, Crouch x 2 and Talia. In fact we would probably have a bunch of fringe plodders or jack shit instead but that's what you're suggesting we should have done.
 

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In theory, I'd agree with you 101%, but there's a problem. I should've clarified this earlier, which I didn't - my fault. We're not in a pure free market here, if you want to use that term.

When players do leave The Crows for another club, the destination Club often won't Trade players in return (or at least not the ones we want). Or we don't get adequate compensation, in terms of Draft Picks.
e.g. If Dangermouse wants to go to, say Hawthorn, and they've finished first or second on the Ladder - their first round Draft Pick is 17 or 18. No way in Hell would I want to give up Dangermouse for a Round 17 or 18 pick. And that's assuming Hawthorn would even give up a First Round pick, which I doubt they would - most of the Top Clubs are tough and smart negotiators. There's absolutely no point in Trading Star Players for Draft Picks from a Club that's finished in the Top 3 on the Ladder. Forget it.

The crux of this matter is that when Gun Players do leave the Crows, we don't get adequate compensation when they leave - this is what's crippling us. What happened when TidBit and Gunston left the Crows? What did we get in return?

If Dangermouse does choose to leave, which I think is a forgone conclusion - if we're able to get a Draft Pick of #3 or higher, or a Trade for any player we want - then I'd be rapt. But this isn't happening, and is one of the reasons why I want us to take a different approach to our List Management. If and when we can Trade players anywhere we want, then we can get true value from an investment. At the moment, that's not happening, and is why I want to take a different approach to how we manage our List.

If and when we can enforce Trades, anywhere the Clubs see fit - then I'd pick Players in The Draft based purely on talent, and not because they're SA lads.
Why do you keep calling him Dangermouse?
 

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The analogy doesn't make complete sense because we don't know what we've bought properly until we try it out over a four year period but essentially Dangerfield is the Ferrari we paid $75,000 for.
I know what you're going for as an analogy - but free agency changes everything. That $75,000 Ferrari we paid for, that is now worth $300,000, we have to sell through the Ferrari Company and they'll give us anywhere from $0 to $70,000, depending on how they feel at the time.
 
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I hear you and understand where you're coming from however;
  • What if Dangerfield and Sloane don't leave? should have we still picked an SA player out of principle? and who would have they been? Ebert probably would have went to Port anyway, so tell me who else?
  • What if we got better at determining their head space around contracts and traded them a year before it was due? we could have got pick 7+ for Tippett and (supposedly) pick 2 and 3 for Dangerfield (if not at least two low first rounders).
  • You're ignoring that it is a small percentage of players that have actually left because of homesickness or Adelaidesucksness. Dangerfield obviously doesn't think Adelaide sucks.
We would be in a far worse position if we had not drafted Dangerfield, Sloane, Crouch x 2 and Talia. In fact we would probably have a bunch of fringe plodders or jack shit instead but that's what you're suggesting we should have done.
Appreciate your comments - well put.
You mentioned Dangerfield, Sloane, Crouch x 2, and Talia. I think these players were definitely great picks. But if Dangermouse and The Sloane Ranger walk....and we get f*ck all for them, what then? I am not-at-all saying either of them will (or should) - I am just pointing out the end result.
The issue I am trying to point out is not purely, on it's own - "we should just target SA players", and that's that. No. What I am trying to point out is a combination of the following:
  1. Interstate recruits are more likely to walk than local talent. That is not black and white, cut and dried....but it's a fair indicator.
  2. When Gun Draft Picks do walk after a season or two, we often don't get adequate compensation. This is the main issue that I have.

On that note, what did we get out of both the Gunston and TidBiet defections? It was the Gunston defection that really p*ssed me off. Over the duration, we managed to Trade both Darren Jarman and Eddie Betts into the club - two amazing coups that worked out brilliantly. But other than those two, I don't consider any of our other Trades to be anywhere near the same calibre. What people need to understand is that in the AFL, just being good isn't good enough. Otherwise you'll be stuck mid-Ladder forever.

I have read numerous comments about this Thread, but until the Trading Rules change in light of Free Agency, my overall opinions have not changed.

Apart from all the comments people have made so far on this issue, what I would very much like to know is what people think of being able to Trade players to any AFL Club, regardless of the players' choice. I am not banging a drum, only saying we should only target SA Draft Picks, and that's it. Like it or not, just having the Coach and CEO attempt to "sell" The Crows as this great club you want to play for, and a great city to live in - that's a start, but if you think that's the silver bullet solution to The Crows' List Management issues....sorry, not on the same page. When push comes to shove, in certain situations we need the ability to forcibly Trade players to get the best for The Crows.
 
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I know what you're going for as an analogy - but free agency changes everything. That $75,000 Ferrari we paid for, that is now worth $300,000, we have to sell through the Ferrari Company and they'll give us anywhere from $0 to $70,000, depending on how they feel at the time.
Thankyou. This is the exact issue I am trying to highlight. It's this end of the equation that needs to change. I don't care how much Dangermouse, or anyone else is worth - if we're restricted in what/where/how we can Trade players, then it puts a serious damper on things.

:thumbsu: :thumbsu: :thumbsu:
 
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If you demonise players too much before free agency you won't attract any new ones to your club.
That's a risk I am more than willing to take....seven days a week, and twice on Sundays.
When The Crows Draft players, we need to make the most out of them that we can, but we're in a cutthroat, competitive industry. If players want to stay at the club, great, we'll do everything we can to support them. But if they're not happy at The Crows, our #1 priority must be getting the absolute best we can for the club. I mean no deliberate ill-will to any Crow wishing to defect, but their best interests take a very distant second place to the success of The Club. Nor am I going to apologise to them.
 
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