Mega Thread Possible trades in 2015 for the Crows

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hemi

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Posts
5,946
Likes
5,915
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Adelaide
Appreciate your comments - well put.
You mentioned Dangerfield, Sloane, Crouch x 2, and Talia. I think these players were definitely great picks. But if Dangermouse and The Sloane Ranger walk....and we get f*ck all for them, what then? I am not-at-all saying either of them will (or should) - I am just pointing out the end result.
The issue I am trying to point out is not purely, on it's own - "we should just target SA players", and that's that. No. What I am trying to point out is a combination of the following:
  1. Interstate recruits are more likely to walk than local talent. That is not black and white, cut and dried....but it's a fair indicator.
  2. When Gun Draft Picks do walk after a season or two, we often don't get adequate compensation. This is the main issue that I have.

On that note, what did we get out of both the Gunston and TidBiet defections? It was the Gunston defection that really p*ssed me off. Over the duration, we managed to Trade both Darren Jarman and Eddie Betts into the club - two amazing coups that worked out brilliantly. But other than those two, I don't consider any of our other Trades to be anywhere near the same calibre. What people need to understand is that in the AFL, just being good isn't good enough. Otherwise you'll be stuck mid-Ladder forever.

I have read numerous comments about this Thread, but until the Trading Rules change in light of Free Agency, my overall opinions have not changed.
You're pointing out two events, 1) Gunston and 2) Tippett. Gunston is valid, Tippett was skewed by poor administration and back room agreements so shouldn't be included. Even then I could include if you want but it's irrelevant.

We selected Gunston with pick 27 in 2009, invested two years into him and got picks 24, 46 and 64 in return. This was probably the worst trade I remember us ever doing at the time it was done. We would have probably been better off or equal under free agency if it was available to us than the trade so I think that argument is invalid.

So on the basis that we should have drafted an SA player at 27 instead of Gunston and receiving picks 24, 46 and 64 two years later, which out of the remaining SA players should have we picked?
  1. Justin Bollenhagen
  2. Byron Sumner
  3. Jesse O'Brien
The "who should we have selected" hindsight game is great (and flawed) for the person playing it on your side of the argument but it still wouldn't work for you.

We don't even know if one of Dangerfield, Crouch x 2, Sloane and Talia is going to leave and we're having this conversation based on Gunston? I get it, the trade made people feel angry, we got unders, we got shafted, Gunston kicks bags against us and smiles at the crowd, but none of that takes away from it being the right decision to draft an interstate player instead of an SA lad, even after the worst bending over we've ever received.

Apart from all the comments people have made so far on this issue, what I would very much like to know is what people think of being able to Trade players to any AFL Club, regardless of the players' choice. I am not banging a drum, only saying we should only target SA Draft Picks, and that's it. Like it or not, just having the Coach and CEO attempt to "sell" The Crows as this great club you want to play for, and a great city to live in - that's a start, but if you think that's the silver bullet solution to The Crows' List Management issues....sorry, not on the same page. When push comes to shove, in certain situations we need the ability to forcibly Trade players to get the best for The Crows.
Should your employer be able to trade to you another employer in Sydney when you don't want to live there? It can't be all about what's good for the employer/club. The player can't be a pawn in a game. I know it happens in America but it'd be bloody hard to introduce here with arguments like that against it.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Hemi

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Posts
5,946
Likes
5,915
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Adelaide
I know what you're going for as an analogy - but free agency changes everything. That $75,000 Ferrari we paid for, that is now worth $300,000, we have to sell through the Ferrari Company and they'll give us anywhere from $0 to $70,000, depending on how they feel at the time.
That's an exaggeration.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Posts
1,409
Likes
1,074
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
You're pointing out two events, 1) Gunston and 2) Tippett. Gunston is valid, Tippett was skewed by poor administration and back room agreements so shouldn't be included. Even then I could include if you want but it's irrelevant.

We selected Gunston with pick 27 in 2009, invested two years into him and got picks 24, 46 and 64 in return. This was probably the worst trade I remember us ever doing at the time it was done. We would have probably been better off or equal under free agency if it was available to us than the trade so I think that argument is invalid.

So on the basis that we should have drafted an SA player at 27 instead of Gunston and receiving picks 24, 46 and 64 two years later, which out of the remaining SA players should have we picked?
  1. Justin Bollenhagen
  2. Byron Sumner
  3. Jesse O'Brien
The "who should we have selected" hindsight game is great (and flawed) for the person playing it on your side of the argument but it still wouldn't work for you.

We don't even know if one of Dangerfield, Crouch x 2, Sloane and Talia is going to leave and we're having this conversation based on Gunston? I get it, the trade made people feel angry, we got unders, we got shafted, Gunston kicks bags against us and smiles at the crowd, but none of that takes away from it being the right decision to draft an interstate player instead of an SA lad, even after the worst bending over we've ever received.



Should your employer be able to trade to you another employer in Sydney when you don't want to live there? It can't be all about what's good for the employer/club. The player can't be a pawn in a game. I know it happens in America but it'd be bloody hard to introduce here with arguments like that against it.
Here are two articles that are the reasoning behind why The Crows currently need to focus more/entirely on SA talent....in the Draft.
What I'm ultimately trying to achieve is what's mentioned in the first article below:

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-02-21/clubs-deserve-power-dimma

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-02-19/too-much-player-power

Take a look at the second link. Read the following comments:

Scott: Players' rights and the obligations of clubs to fulfil those rights need to be protected at all costs, but there needs to be a balance because what we have now is not sustainable. Players under contract have all the power to leave clubs but the reverse isn’t true. I don't have the answer, but the system isn’t right.

Paul Roos (Melbourne): We saw in the last off-season (in late 2014) that everyone is a free agent in practice because players got to go the clubs they wanted. What I'd like to know is whether the trade period just gone was a one-off in that respect or is the way of the future.

Lyon: Regulations are in place to supposedly create equality. If you want to have the EPL system where only one or two teams can ever win it, let players go wherever they want, whenever they want.


What we've got at the moment is like semi-Free Agency across the board.
 

Hemi

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Posts
5,946
Likes
5,915
Location
Australia
AFL Club
Adelaide
It's like you're trying to do a bait and switch by pretending you're talking about free agency and player power being bad and somehow this means we should draft SA lads only.

I've said in multiple posts why this is rubbish and posted serious evidence that it was right to draft the interstate players that we did instead of SA players.

You haven't answered one of my questions or rebutted a thing I've said. You just keep posting as if quantity will outweigh quality.
 
Joined
May 21, 2001
Posts
49,519
Likes
38,511
Location
Floating around the Universe
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Adelaide Crows
Appreciate your comments - well put.
You mentioned Dangerfield, Sloane, Crouch x 2, and Talia. I think these players were definitely great picks. But if Dangermouse and The Sloane Ranger walk....and we get f*ck all for them, what then? I am not-at-all saying either of them will (or should) - I am just pointing out the end result.
The issue I am trying to point out is not purely, on it's own - "we should just target SA players", and that's that. No. What I am trying to point out is a combination of the following:
  1. Interstate recruits are more likely to walk than local talent. That is not black and white, cut and dried....but it's a fair indicator.
  2. When Gun Draft Picks do walk after a season or two, we often don't get adequate compensation. This is the main issue that I have.

On that note, what did we get out of both the Gunston and TidBiet defections? It was the Gunston defection that really p*ssed me off. Over the duration, we managed to Trade both Darren Jarman and Eddie Betts into the club - two amazing coups that worked out brilliantly. But other than those two, I don't consider any of our other Trades to be anywhere near the same calibre. What people need to understand is that in the AFL, just being good isn't good enough. Otherwise you'll be stuck mid-Ladder forever.

I have read numerous comments about this Thread, but until the Trading Rules change in light of Free Agency, my overall opinions have not changed.

Apart from all the comments people have made so far on this issue, what I would very much like to know is what people think of being able to Trade players to any AFL Club, regardless of the players' choice. I am not banging a drum, only saying we should only target SA Draft Picks, and that's it. Like it or not, just having the Coach and CEO attempt to "sell" The Crows as this great club you want to play for, and a great city to live in - that's a start, but if you think that's the silver bullet solution to The Crows' List Management issues....sorry, not on the same page. When push comes to shove, in certain situations we need the ability to forcibly Trade players to get the best for The Crows.
Sloane isn't a free agent.
 
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Posts
1,409
Likes
1,074
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
It's like you're trying to do a bait and switch by pretending you're talking about free agency and player power being bad and somehow this means we should draft SA lads only.

I've said in multiple posts why this is rubbish and posted serious evidence that it was right to draft the interstate players that we did instead of SA players.

You haven't answered one of my questions or rebutted a thing I've said. You just keep posting as if quantity will outweigh quality.
What I'm referring to is the general approach we need to take from here on, until we can change the "free agency player power" equation. Not trying to bait and switch anything. The reason I brought up the whole issue around player power is to explain why I am making the comments I have, regarding targeting SA talent in the Draft.
 

Sanders

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Nov 1, 2012
Posts
25,438
Likes
32,836
AFL Club
Adelaide
That's a risk I am more than willing to take....seven days a week, and twice on Sundays.
I can see what you're saying, and I think a lot of people probably agree to some extent.

The difficulty is you havent really accounted for what happens if the players say ok, we're out then.

Being too heavy handed doesn't make you a destination. I strongly feel we've been too beta, and need to be more pragmatic. Your hardline seems a bit OTT to me. it's a gamble that only works if someone doesn't call your bluff
 

BrissyCrow

Club Legend
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Posts
2,696
Likes
2,832
Location
Brisbane
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Glenelg & All Tiger Teams
Focusing on drafting sa players only is pointless for 2 reasons

1. SA players can still be free agents
2. You have to have the best players.
I still believe that my suggestion from about 2 years ago has some merit.
Port and Adelaide should both be able to nominate their first draft pick from the SA recruits. This means that if Port finish 10th and we finish 14th we can nominate our first pick to be player X from South Australia. Then the Power can nominate their first pick from whoever is left. Once they have done that those two players are off limits to all other teams but the 2 SA clubs must take their nomination with their first pick. The same happens in the West and in Syndey and Qld where they have their academy's. As for the Vics each club does the same with the lowest place club getting the first selection from players from Vic and Tas. Once the first round is over then the draft reverts back to the way it is now for the 2nd round.

Now this may require some fine tuning but the benefit is that ALL clubs get a chance to select their first round pick to be from their home state or from their state academy. Their might be some issue regarding Brisbane and the Gold Coast and this may need to be sorted but it would go along way for all teams building some form of stability and loyalty.
 

Cleric

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
12,897
Likes
13,754
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
I still believe that my suggestion from about 2 years ago has some merit.
Port and Adelaide should both be able to nominate their first draft pick from the SA recruits. This means that if Port finish 10th and we finish 14th we can nominate our first pick to be player X from South Australia. Then the Power can nominate their first pick from whoever is left. Once they have done that those two players are off limits to all other teams but the 2 SA clubs must take their nomination with their first pick. The same happens in the West and in Syndey and Qld where they have their academy's. As for the Vics each club does the same with the lowest place club getting the first selection from players from Vic and Tas. Once the first round is over then the draft reverts back to the way it is now for the 2nd round.

Now this may require some fine tuning but the benefit is that ALL clubs get a chance to select their first round pick to be from their home state or from their state academy. Their might be some issue regarding Brisbane and the Gold Coast and this may need to be sorted but it would go along way for all teams building some form of stability and loyalty.
I agree. I have been saying that the way it should be is this.
The SA clubs have first and second pick from the SA kids, then the rest go into the pool. The WA clubs the same thing. The Vic clubs the same thing. Then NSW gets first pick of NSW and Tasmanian kids and the QLD clubs get first pick of Qld and NT clubs.
Then the second round is an all in draft pool.
This will give AFL clubs the duty of investing in their local areas as there will be a benefit. It gives the best talent the ability to stay at home. It gives the clubs the benefit of their first round pick not having a go home factor.
 

Niximus

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Posts
13,482
Likes
13,557
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
I agree. I have been saying that the way it should be is this.
The SA clubs have first and second pick from the SA kids, then the rest go into the pool. The WA clubs the same thing. The Vic clubs the same thing. Then NSW gets first pick of NSW and Tasmanian kids and the QLD clubs get first pick of Qld and NT clubs.
Then the second round is an all in draft pool.
This will give AFL clubs the duty of investing in their local areas as there will be a benefit. It gives the best talent the ability to stay at home. It gives the clubs the benefit of their first round pick not having a go home factor.
What happens if we get the wooden spoon, and there aren't any decent SA players that year. If the top 10 are all Victorians, they'd all be unavailable for us to select and we'd end up with a 'pick 10 player' for pick #1.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Cleric

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Posts
12,897
Likes
13,754
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
What happens if we get the wooden spoon, and there aren't any decent SA players that year. If the top 10 are all Victorians, they'd all be unavailable for us to select and we'd end up with a 'pick 10 player' for pick #1.
If we finish last we still get the first pick from SA. What happens if we Win the flag And still Get the best SA kid ? Draft picks are not 100% give me's any way . I think that we would do fine and have a greater SA feel with
less go home risk . Remember we are Only talking about first round here .
 

Pdub

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Posts
7,065
Likes
16,724
Location
Gold Coast
AFL Club
Adelaide
When the clubs can trade players without their permission, we will be able to fill the club with SA kids. We draft the best kid available regardless of where they are from and after 2 years when their first contract is up, if there is any sign that they want to move back to their home state one day then we trade them for the best SA kid we can at another club.
 

Niximus

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Posts
13,482
Likes
13,557
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
I had a quick look to compare the first round pick we received under the current system, compared to where the player we would have got under this system was taken (e.g. if we finished above Port, when was the second SA player drafted)

Since 2000, and poor draft selections aside, our pick lost value on 8 occasions, gained value on 5, and broke even twice.

2000 - Got pick #7 (Lawrence Angwin), would have got player picked with pick #8 (Daniel Motlop)

2001 - Got pick #12 (Brent Reilly), would have got player picked with pick #35 (Jarrad Wright)

2002 - Had pick #2 before we traded it (Daniel Wells), would have had player taken with #7 (Andrew Mackie)


2003 - Got pick #14 (Fergus Watts), would have had player taken with pick #1 (Adam Cooney)

2004 - Got pick #8 (John Meesen), would have had player taken with pick #3 (Ryan Griffen)

2005 - Got pick #16 (Richard Douglas), would have had player taken with pick #17 (Darren Pfeiffer)

2006 - Got pick #14 (James Sellar), would have had player taken with pick #14 (James Sellar)

2007 - Got pick #10 (Patrick Dangerfield), would have had player taken with pick #13 (Brad Ebert)

2008 - Got pick #10 (Phil Davis), would have had player taken with pick #10 (Phil Davis)

2009 - Got pick #13 (Daniel Talia), would have had player taken with pick #15 (Christian Howard)

2010 - Got pick #14 (Brodie Smith), would have had player taken with pick #3 (Sam Day)

2011 - Had pick #10 (Liam Sumner), traded to get Brad Crouch, would have had player taken with pick #18 (Brad McKenzie)

2012 - Would have had pick #20 (Tim Broomhead), would have had player taken with pick #8 (Sam Mayes)

2013 - Would have had pick #8 (Luke McDonald), would have had player taken with pick #6 (Matthew Scharenberg)


2014 - Had pick #10 (Nakia Cockatoo), would have had player taken with pick #16 Sam Durdin
 

deaneus

You wouldn’t believe me if I told you
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Posts
18,472
Likes
34,889
Location
*sigh*
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
this week, the Hawks!
Moderator #1,692
I keep hearing draft SA kids.

What if the SA kids would rather play in Melbourne / elsewhere?

For instance, Sam Day. Doesn't he hate it in SA with a passion or something?
 

jumboprince

FLACCID MEMBER
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Posts
9,684
Likes
21,004
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Yahl Cricket Club
Just going back a couple of pages talking about Boyd, there were claims that by 2018/2019 the salary cap would be north of 17 million where in 2016 the cap is about 10.4 million. Not saying people are wrong but where are they getting that figure from?
 

Pdub

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Posts
7,065
Likes
16,724
Location
Gold Coast
AFL Club
Adelaide
Just going back a couple of pages talking about Boyd, there were claims that by 2018/2019 the salary cap would be north of 17 million where in 2016 the cap is about 10.4 million. Not saying people are wrong but where are they getting that figure from?
Expected to increase with the next TV rights deal
 

jumboprince

FLACCID MEMBER
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Posts
9,684
Likes
21,004
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
Yahl Cricket Club
Expected to increase with the next TV rights deal
70%?

Not sure the next increase in TV rights will be anywhere as big as the last couple, FTA is a shell of itself these days and Ten and Nine would struggle to even put a good offer up. Unless a new paytv comes in then I just don't see it
 

Paladin

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Posts
8,793
Likes
13,583
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
70%?

Not sure the next increase in TV rights will be anywhere as big as the last couple, FTA is a shell of itself these days and Ten and Nine would struggle to even put a good offer up. Unless a new paytv comes in then I just don't see it
That's why the networks need live sport. Its the only product people watch and they can charge for - everything else can be sourced on the net or taped and viewed without ads.
 

DJ75

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Aug 4, 2004
Posts
5,958
Likes
8,125
Location
on planet Crow
AFL Club
Adelaide
Other Teams
36ers
That's why the networks need live sport. Its the only product people watch and they can charge for - everything else can be sourced on the net or taped and viewed without ads.
How long do you think it will be before one of the online channels (such as Stan etc...) bid for the rights? Would be a massive call if one of them could get it over the Foxtel run online demand channel.
 

Niximus

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Posts
13,482
Likes
13,557
Location
Adelaide
AFL Club
Adelaide
How long do you think it will be before one of the online channels (such as Stan etc...) bid for the rights? Would be a massive call if one of them could get it over the Foxtel run online demand channel.
Depends. The AFL already have a streaming system in place, they may elect to go solo and not have broadcast rights at all. Eventually you might access all games via afl.com.au.
 

Pdub

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Nov 16, 2014
Posts
7,065
Likes
16,724
Location
Gold Coast
AFL Club
Adelaide
Depends. The AFL already have a streaming system in place, they may elect to go solo and not have broadcast rights at all. Eventually you might access all games via afl.com.au.
The game is worth more the TV channels than it is to the AFL, so that won't happen. The TV channels lose money broadcasting the football compared to what the get from advertisers who want their ads on during the football, but they make the money back by people staying on the channel to watch other shows.

The AFL may try to also stream every game but it will never be exclusive. What they want to do is handle the complete broadcast and then sell the complete package with commentary to the channels a bit like how the Olympics do it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom