Opinion Possible unpopular opinion re: Coaching Team/Selection Committee.

[Steele7]

This.



Wasn't he touched up by a 19 year old 85 kilo stick insect on the weekend?

Yeah. Maj should be ripping it up in the VFL. Otherwise he can not be selected.

 

[True North]

Even though those stats are factual, it would be even more interesting to know...

How many were lost by north being overrun after giving up a lead of more than 4 or 5 goals?

How many were lost from having a small lead, but the opposition were always within a kick or so?

How many were lost when north were behind by less than 3 or 4 goals but almost pulled off a comeback?

How many were won by north overcoming a lead of more than 4 or 5 goals?

How many were won by north holding onto a slender lead of less than 3 or 4 goals?

How many were won by north after a see-sawing battle when the lead was swapping through out the last quarter?

How many were won or lost on the last meaningful kick of the match?

We never make a comeback. The greatest deficit Braddles has overcome at 3/4 time in 7 years is 12 points.

Both crazy Vossie and Nafan Buckles have coached a better 4th Q comeback than Dear Leader Braddles.

I'd hazard a guess that we were in front at 3Q time in 80%+ of those 19 matches.

It's a staggering indictment on the clubs lack of talent. To somewhat show I'm not a complete hater, I thought we were brilliantly coached pre injuries last year and were clear flag favs with our structures at the time perfectly complementing our strengths.

 

[Zondor]

Not 100% true Mr Joel.

Poor old Billy has nobody pissing in his ear and he doesn't think that's very fair. :stern look

 

[lockheed]

Lack of structure, lack of a gameplay that suits the cattle we have and bewildering selection policy has us squarely on the s**t list.

DP - I live in Canberra. I have no access to inner sanctum sources.

I also realise that selection decisions don't solely rest on Brad - it they did, the match committee would obviously be dysfunctional.

But the supporters have seen Crocker successfully change some things around when Brad was in hospital. Brad stated that he would still be selecting Petrie et al if they were on the list. We have seen for several years, and it was very stark with regard to Petrie's form last year, that the senior players are backed in week after week, and almost without exception have a lock on their position, irregardless of form.

So, given what you're saying, it's disappointing that there wasn't a reset of the coaching staff. I'd love, for example, for us to hire a coach with strong game day tactical skills. We could then hope that Brad would listen and learn.

 

[Zondor]

I'll say this. As in most work places, politics exist and it is dependent on which side of the fence your source sits, as to what version of events they provide. :stern look

 

[Roosurgence]

Well you would think the buck stops with Scott? It's his head on the block if it turns to s**t, so you would have to think he has the major say in selection.

 

[StiffArm]

Unfortunately we are now at the bottom of the s**t pile.

Lack of structure, lack of a gameplay that suits the cattle we have and bewildering selection policy has us squarely on the s**t list.

You get the feeling the team could be winning every week by 5 goals and there would be some who come here to post negatively about how if we just dropped a few players we could be winning by 10!

 

[king of the road]

You get the feeling the team could be winning every week by 5 goals and there would be some who come here to post negatively about how if we just dropped a few players we could be winning by 10!

That did happen over the last few years when we winning games and getting to prelims. Some people are never happy.

 

[StiffArm]

That did happen over the last few years when we winning games and getting to prelims. Some people are never happy.

Would be a horrible way to live life. I much prefer being an eternal optimist (at least when it comes to footy). Everything is more enjoyable.

 

[Tas]

You get the feeling the team could be winning every week by 5 goals and there would be some who come here to post negatively about how if we just dropped a few players we could be winning by 10!

While beating up on our bunnies is always entertaining, the point of it all ultimately is to win premierships. The question comes down to is he the man for the job or not. If he isn't then we are just pissing into the wind going through the motions.

On the body of evidence I do not have the confidence that he is the man for the job. That doesn't mean we will go winless. Going through the motions is what resulted in Petrie's forced retirement never having won a premiership. Wells left, even the goodwill of being married into a strong North family wasn't enough. His talent spent for nought, no worthwhile memories for retirement. No premiership reunion to come back to the club for.

Do you want the same fate for Goldy? Ziebell? Cunnington? How many careers are we going to flush down the toilet with no success?

This is a brutal industry, a results based industry. 54% win/loss ratio is mediocre. There are no premiership cups handed out for being middle of the road. So what has gone wrong? Is it players? Lack of talent? Lack of support? He has claimed he has the talent, has the support.

I don't think he is the worst coach going around. He does some things well, other things not so well. All coaches have flaws. But, do I think he will take us to a flag? I just can't see it given what he has done over his 6+ years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I knew he had some hard yards when he came in with a run down side, but he has had time to rebuild, the kids he has raised are no longer kids but men in their prime and we are not remotely close to being good enough.

Brad has had 163 games to set a good enough standard. I don't expect him to do a Beveridge, but Bev came into a side where everyone was fleeing and he mostly had young kids plus some recycled discards. He has managed to produce a better, more consistent standard. That 70% win:loss ratio shows the consistency, despite being a young and somewhat inexperienced group. There is a reason we are at 54% under Brad.

He is a nice guy, I wish he was a better coach and wish I could have more confidence in him and as long as the club keeps sending him out I will support the club. That doesn't mean I need to con myself.

There is a difference between being loyal and being blindly loyal. I wish I could drink from the Kool Aid that some people have indulged on and believe whatever it is that you guys believe, but I can't. I have to rely on reality and the body of evidence.

I think we will probably win somewhere between 8 to 10 games. Success? Failure? My concern is we are getting no closer to being a contender. How long do we wait and see? How many more players do we put on the pyre that end their careers without having any success?

I don't like to be negative about it, but show me something that is going to make me believe, don't just judge from your pedestal that I am not a good supporter for not accepting the messiah. What is it that convinces you that he is the man for the job?

 

[Arden]

Also on a personal level i've always followed Tudor's career. We were at school together, played a little bit of footy together early at school, ran in relay teams together, were in the same yr 12 PE class which was very good (and even did stuff on Muscle physiology that wasn't covered at a Monash uni sci degree until second yr.) He wasn't my best mate or anything, we didn't hang out much, but we always got on good and worked together ok. So I've been very interested in what he was doing and especially once he was back and coaching at North.

How did you manage to run a relay with an onion tied to your belt?

 

[StiffArm]

While beating up on our bunnies is always entertaining, the point of it all ultimately is to win premierships. The question comes down to is he the man for the job or not. If he isn't then we are just pissing into the wind going through the motions.

On the body of evidence I do not have the confidence that he is the man for the job. That doesn't mean we will go winless. Going through the motions is what resulted in Petrie's forced retirement never having won a premiership. Wells left, even the goodwill of being married into a strong North family wasn't enough. His talent spent for nought, no worthwhile memories for retirement. No premiership reunion to come back to the club for.

Do you want the same fate for Goldy? Ziebell? Cunnington? How many careers are we going to flush down the toilet with no success?

This is a brutal industry, a results based industry. 54% win/loss ratio is mediocre. There are no premiership cups handed out for being middle of the road. So what has gone wrong? Is it players? Lack of talent? Lack of support? He has claimed he has the talent, has the support.

I don't think he is the worst coach going around. He does some things well, other things not so well. All coaches have flaws. But, do I think he will take us to a flag? I just can't see it given what he has done over his 6+ years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I knew he had some hard yards when he came in with a run down side, but he has had time to rebuild, the kids he has raised are no longer kids but men in their prime and we are not remotely close to being good enough.

Brad has had 163 games to set a good enough standard. I don't expect him to do a Beveridge, but Bev came into a side where everyone was fleeing and he mostly had young kids plus some recycled discards. He has managed to produce a better, more consistent standard. That 70% win:loss ratio shows the consistency, despite being a young and somewhat inexperienced group. There is a reason we are at 54% under Brad.

He is a nice guy, I wish he was a better coach and wish I could have more confidence in him and as long as the club keeps sending him out I will support the club. That doesn't mean I need to con myself.

There is a difference between being loyal and being blindly loyal. I wish I could drink from the Kool Aid that some people have indulged on and believe whatever it is that you guys believe, but I can't. I have to rely on reality and the body of evidence.

I think we will probably win somewhere between 8 to 10 games. Success? Failure? My concern is we are getting no closer to being a contender. How long do we wait and see? How many more players do we put on the pyre that end their careers without having any success?

I don't like to be negative about it, but show me something that is going to make me believe, don't just judge from your pedestal that I am not a good supporter for not accepting the messiah. What is it that convinces you that he is the man for the job?

I appreciate your thoughts. I don't have blind faith in Scott, but I do think he is a much better coach now than he was 7 years ago.

I thought he did fairly well with the cattle he had, if things had gone differently with injuries last year I genuinely felt we were a shot.

Right now the job is to develop the kids. If Scott is not doing that by years end, move him on. Criticism 5 rounds into a reset is unwarranted imo.

 

[DarkPhoenix]

While beating up on our bunnies is always entertaining, the point of it all ultimately is to win premierships. The question comes down to is he the man for the job or not. If he isn't then we are just pissing into the wind going through the motions.

On the body of evidence I do not have the confidence that he is the man for the job. That doesn't mean we will go winless. Going through the motions is what resulted in Petrie's forced retirement never having won a premiership. Wells left, even the goodwill of being married into a strong North family wasn't enough. His talent spent for nought, no worthwhile memories for retirement. No premiership reunion to come back to the club for.

Do you want the same fate for Goldy? Ziebell? Cunnington? How many careers are we going to flush down the toilet with no success?

This is a brutal industry, a results based industry. 54% win/loss ratio is mediocre. There are no premiership cups handed out for being middle of the road. So what has gone wrong? Is it players? Lack of talent? Lack of support? He has claimed he has the talent, has the support.

I don't think he is the worst coach going around. He does some things well, other things not so well. All coaches have flaws. But, do I think he will take us to a flag? I just can't see it given what he has done over his 6+ years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I knew he had some hard yards when he came in with a run down side, but he has had time to rebuild, the kids he has raised are no longer kids but men in their prime and we are not remotely close to being good enough.

Brad has had 163 games to set a good enough standard. I don't expect him to do a Beveridge, but Bev came into a side where everyone was fleeing and he mostly had young kids plus some recycled discards. He has managed to produce a better, more consistent standard. That 70% win:loss ratio shows the consistency, despite being a young and somewhat inexperienced group. There is a reason we are at 54% under Brad.

He is a nice guy, I wish he was a better coach and wish I could have more confidence in him and as long as the club keeps sending him out I will support the club. That doesn't mean I need to con myself.

There is a difference between being loyal and being blindly loyal. I wish I could drink from the Kool Aid that some people have indulged on and believe whatever it is that you guys believe, but I can't. I have to rely on reality and the body of evidence.

I think we will probably win somewhere between 8 to 10 games. Success? Failure? My concern is we are getting no closer to being a contender. How long do we wait and see? How many more players do we put on the pyre that end their careers without having any success?

I don't like to be negative about it, but show me something that is going to make me believe, don't just judge from your pedestal that I am not a good supporter for not accepting the messiah. What is it that convinces you that he is the man for the job?

I think as part of a reshuffle he should be moved to Assistant coach rather than head coach.

I think he's really good in enough areas he would be a fantastic AC but he lacks certain things (such as game day nouse) to be a head coach in the current AFL climate.

 

[ferball]

How did you manage to run a relay with an onion tied to your belt?

I dunno.

I guess it was just the style at the time.

 

[Tas]

I appreciate your thoughts. I don't have blind faith in Scott, but I do think he is a much better coach now than he was 7 years ago.

I thought he did fairly well with the cattle he had, if things had gone differently with injuries last year I genuinely felt we were a shot.

Right now the job is to develop the kids. If Scott is not doing that by years end, move him on. Criticism 5 rounds into a reset is unwarranted imo.

The only thing I am certain about is we would have won more games last year than we did had it not been for injuries, how many more I am not so sure about given we were going into a tough period of that schedule and despite the number of wins, we were uninspiring in many of them.

The main problem was with the consistency of effort and the ability of players to win one-on-one contests, continuously playing senior players in poor form, repeating the same mistakes year after year. The problem wasn't necessarily who we lost, but who remained in the team.

There was nothing about the team that lost to Hawthorn that said it was a team only capable of laying 47 tackles and unable to put enough pressure to stop them from taking 116 marks, most of them uncontested. There has just been a general lack of leadership on-field and Brad is slow to react in the box. Combined with our ability to butcher the ball it just isn't a recipe for success. Maybe we might have survived an EF, maybe got to SF or PF but there is no way we can sustain any kind of good consistent form, never have under Brad and not sure if we ever will.

The problem with entrusting the youth to a guy who has developed the youth over the last 6 years to never really address the flaws in their game or to develop a high standard is are we going to produce more of the same?

We just can't be a side that butchers the football and makes the same rookie mistakes week after week, year after year. If you can trust someone with the youth, then you can trust them to win a flag.

 

[R00StaR]

Let's be clear here. I'm not saying Crocker is "to blame" specifically or that there's a rift in the coaches box.

What I am saying is there may be a differing of opinions at the selection table between a select few that are the reason for us seeing some weird calls or non calls.

The chummy comment is just how I see Crocker and not an inner scrote type comment, it's well known he is really good at being friendly with the list. My question is whether he has slipped too far to the side of friend rather than coach.

Would trust the source that told me the Clarke stuff every day and twice on Sundays, has literally never told me something that wasn't true.
Told me about a certain player we were chasing close to three years before it came out.
So I feel there's some ring of truth at least.

Something is stopping us playing the kids and dropping those who don't deserve a game. I'm NOT saying this is Crocker. I'm saying he was one who voted Clarke not be in last week. But something about our selection committee indicates there's a differing of opinions as to who should be in the team.

On the back of this I'm asking as an out loud thought. Do we need to clean out the coaching team. And old heads like Crocker are not given immunity.

Theres plenty of time for the kids, but that older 3-5 that keep getting highlighted dont have that luxury. Look most supporters almost burnt the place down moving on Boomer, Petrie, NDS and Spud. Imagine the tantrums around here if they moved on 3 of the 5 as well and we we're 0-5. All we'd hear was, if only we kept Thompson and Swallow we definitely 100% certain be 3-2 right now.

Since we did keep them which is the right thing to do imo, they need the chance to prove the onfield leadership and prove they should be kept on next season. So far Hansen has made a good go of it imo and i dont for one moment question the commitment or effort of the others. So given we starved off the angry mob with pitch folks by keeping them, we're doing the right thing in giving them first crack. 5 games in and 0-5 id say its fair we're a bigger chance to see some dropped.

Its funny, if we hadve axed all those players or not played them early the pitchfolks would be out, we keep them and play them and the pitchfolks are out.

 

[adrenalinjunkie]

It sure would be useful LtK.

At least for us I spose.

Its really frustrating. especially with some things cos it'd be great to point out why its not just all on Scott in some threads. I know you're a bit over him, but I'm not yet.

Also on a personal level i've always followed Tudor's career. We were at school together, played a little bit of footy together early at school, ran in relay teams together, were in the same yr 12 PE class which was very good (and even did stuff on Muscle physiology that wasn't covered at a Monash uni sci degree until second yr.) He wasn't my best mate or anything, we didn't hang out much, but we always got on good and worked together ok. So I've been very interested in what he was doing and especially once he was back and coaching at North.

So i' just like to be able to see if I could find something of his personality in elements of our side i spose. But I have no idea what his role is. I've heard everything from midfields, forwards, structures ... you name it. So thats kind of annoying too.

Just purely out of interest, ferball, was there anything about Tudor as you knew him back then that gave indications he'd end up coaching football at a high level? Obvious nous for the game, for example? Or maybe a good sense for managing people and getting them to listen?

(Wouldn't surprise me at all, BTW, if your answer was "no, nothing whatsoever". There are heaps of coaches going round for whom, looking back at their playing career now, there was little if anything to suggest they'd be likely coaching material. Makes life interesting.)

 

[archereleven]

We never make a comeback. The greatest deficit Braddles has overcome at 3/4 time in 7 years is 12 points.

Both crazy Vossie and Nafan Buckles have coached a better 4th Q comeback than Dear Leader Braddles.

I'd hazard a guess that we were in front at 3Q time in 80%+ of those 19 matches.

It's a staggering indictment on the clubs lack of talent. To somewhat show I'm not a complete hater, I thought we were brilliantly coached pre injuries last year and were clear flag favs with our structures at the time perfectly complementing our strengths.

Over a 7 year coaching period, that is ******* beyond pathetic...

 

[thumping]

While beating up on our bunnies is always entertaining, the point of it all ultimately is to win premierships. The question comes down to is he the man for the job or not. If he isn't then we are just pissing into the wind going through the motions.

On the body of evidence I do not have the confidence that he is the man for the job. That doesn't mean we will go winless. Going through the motions is what resulted in Petrie's forced retirement never having won a premiership. Wells left, even the goodwill of being married into a strong North family wasn't enough. His talent spent for nought, no worthwhile memories for retirement. No premiership reunion to come back to the club for.

Do you want the same fate for Goldy? Ziebell? Cunnington? How many careers are we going to flush down the toilet with no success?

This is a brutal industry, a results based industry. 54% win/loss ratio is mediocre. There are no premiership cups handed out for being middle of the road. So what has gone wrong? Is it players? Lack of talent? Lack of support? He has claimed he has the talent, has the support.

I don't think he is the worst coach going around. He does some things well, other things not so well. All coaches have flaws. But, do I think he will take us to a flag? I just can't see it given what he has done over his 6+ years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I knew he had some hard yards when he came in with a run down side, but he has had time to rebuild, the kids he has raised are no longer kids but men in their prime and we are not remotely close to being good enough.

Brad has had 163 games to set a good enough standard. I don't expect him to do a Beveridge, but Bev came into a side where everyone was fleeing and he mostly had young kids plus some recycled discards. He has managed to produce a better, more consistent standard. That 70% win:loss ratio shows the consistency, despite being a young and somewhat inexperienced group. There is a reason we are at 54% under Brad.

He is a nice guy, I wish he was a better coach and wish I could have more confidence in him and as long as the club keeps sending him out I will support the club. That doesn't mean I need to con myself.

There is a difference between being loyal and being blindly loyal. I wish I could drink from the Kool Aid that some people have indulged on and believe whatever it is that you guys believe, but I can't. I have to rely on reality and the body of evidence.

I think we will probably win somewhere between 8 to 10 games. Success? Failure? My concern is we are getting no closer to being a contender. How long do we wait and see? How many more players do we put on the pyre that end their careers without having any success?

I don't like to be negative about it, but show me something that is going to make me believe, don't just judge from your pedestal that I am not a good supporter for not accepting the messiah. What is it that convinces you that he is the man for the job?

My feelings exactly....Thank you Tas!

 

[ferball]

Just purely out of interest, ferball, was there anything about Tudor as you knew him back then that gave indications he'd end up coaching football at a high level? Obvious nous for the game, for example? Or maybe a good sense for managing people and getting them to listen?

(Wouldn't surprise me at all, BTW, if your answer was "no, nothing whatsoever". There are heaps of coaches going round for whom, looking back at their playing career now, there was little if anything to suggest they'd be likely coaching material. Makes life interesting.)

No.

The complete opposite actually. He was a smartarse and played up a little bit. He didn't seem to take things very seriously. Now I'm nearly 50 its actually interesting how many people i've seen like that (smartarses with no obvious ambition) who changed and thrived with a bit of responsibility.

Of all the people in my year to play senior afl (and there were about 20 kids playing u19s mostly at *, some at North and maybe one or 2 at Footscray and Carlton) he was one I wouldn't have picked even to make a senior side. Cos of his attitude. Which is why I'm interested in seeing how he goes, (that and he's still got one of my formal onions.) But he was playing u19s at North which meant he was exposed to Denis Pagan.

Looking back that may be what made him.

I didn't know him that well that I would have seen the qualities in him that would make him a leader, a coach or anything tho. But that's not to say they weren't there.

There were some good footy players in that year and he was one, and he worked hard on the field as an outside mid - but only one of the players I really rated actually actually made it and he went home to Colac first. That was John Barnes.

I'd stopped playing footy by yr 12 too tho. I really didn't like it. It was like a religion at that school (St Bernards) and it shat me no end. If it wasn't for north at Arden st i would have given up on the game. So I couldn't really say what he was like in that side. They were a good team and iirc lost the Herald Shield final to Assumption.

 

[LuvtheKangas]

While beating up on our bunnies is always entertaining, the point of it all ultimately is to win premierships. The question comes down to is he the man for the job or not. If he isn't then we are just pissing into the wind going through the motions.

On the body of evidence I do not have the confidence that he is the man for the job. That doesn't mean we will go winless. Going through the motions is what resulted in Petrie's forced retirement never having won a premiership. Wells left, even the goodwill of being married into a strong North family wasn't enough. His talent spent for nought, no worthwhile memories for retirement. No premiership reunion to come back to the club for.

Do you want the same fate for Goldy? Ziebell? Cunnington? How many careers are we going to flush down the toilet with no success?

This is a brutal industry, a results based industry. 54% win/loss ratio is mediocre. There are no premiership cups handed out for being middle of the road. So what has gone wrong? Is it players? Lack of talent? Lack of support? He has claimed he has the talent, has the support.

I don't think he is the worst coach going around. He does some things well, other things not so well. All coaches have flaws. But, do I think he will take us to a flag? I just can't see it given what he has done over his 6+ years. I gave him the benefit of the doubt, I knew he had some hard yards when he came in with a run down side, but he has had time to rebuild, the kids he has raised are no longer kids but men in their prime and we are not remotely close to being good enough.

Brad has had 163 games to set a good enough standard. I don't expect him to do a Beveridge, but Bev came into a side where everyone was fleeing and he mostly had young kids plus some recycled discards. He has managed to produce a better, more consistent standard. That 70% win:loss ratio shows the consistency, despite being a young and somewhat inexperienced group. There is a reason we are at 54% under Brad.

He is a nice guy, I wish he was a better coach and wish I could have more confidence in him and as long as the club keeps sending him out I will support the club. That doesn't mean I need to con myself.

There is a difference between being loyal and being blindly loyal. I wish I could drink from the Kool Aid that some people have indulged on and believe whatever it is that you guys believe, but I can't. I have to rely on reality and the body of evidence.

I think we will probably win somewhere between 8 to 10 games. Success? Failure? My concern is we are getting no closer to being a contender. How long do we wait and see? How many more players do we put on the pyre that end their careers without having any success?

I don't like to be negative about it, but show me something that is going to make me believe, don't just judge from your pedestal that I am not a good supporter for not accepting the messiah. What is it that convinces you that he is the man for the job?

Again, Tas, you've nailed it. Some of us are deemed Scott supporters simply because we state our disgust at the malicious, disrespectful, narrow-minded vitriol that is posted about him on that thread, when the fact is many "supporters" also have these serious reservations.

IMO, the team selections and match-day inflexibility in the first five rounds of this season are a microcosm of his entire tenure - just not good enough. This is very disappointing as I felt we had a clean slate at the start of the year following the 4 de-listings and therefore the mistakes of old would not be carried into this season. This continued failure is on the whole match committee, not just the coach, but as some have pointed out, the buck needs to stop with Brad.

 

[ferball]

You get the feeling the team could be winning every week by 5 goals and there would be some who come here to post negatively about how if we just dropped a few players we could be winning by 10!

That's actually happened while I've been here, so its happened in the last 2 years.

 

[naturally north]

Yeah. Maj should be ripping it up in the VFL. Otherwise he can not be selected.

Yes and fair enough. We need guys rewarded for good VFL form the same as we need guys omitted for poor AFL form. Nothing would make me happier. Not sure it will ever happen though.

 

[iSmack]

- Could personal agenda's and egos between individuals that sit on the selection committee be the issue?

- Or could the desire for stability, control and conformity be the pervading values most cherished by the club, hence the choices at selection committee?

- Maybe the folks who have influence on the selection committee, whether part of the commitee or not, have become comfortable and settled into a predictable routine after years in the job. They perform their 'jobs' competently, but have little motivation to improve. In other words have stagnated as the game has evolved.

Either way, I'm not surprised. It's a common leadership problem that you see at many organizations.

I would like us to be more innovative. Look to other sports across the globe. Steal and tweak strategies and tactics, entice the genius's in track and field, wrestling, Google, medical professionals to work with us. Heck even spend a day with us to see how they do it.

With the financial pressures of the last decade behind us, and the fact that the media and football community think were irrelevant hence the lack of questioning, I wonder where the pressure to succeed is coming from internally?

I suspect our brand of footy, is a reflection of how NMFC operate in the back office. Boring, predictable and slow.

 

[True North]

No.

The complete opposite actually. He was a smartarse and played up a little bit. He didn't seem to take things very seriously. Now I'm nearly 50 its actually interesting how many people i've seen like that (smartarses with no obvious ambition) who changed and thrived with a bit of responsibility.

Of all the people in my year to play senior afl (and there were about 20 kids playing u19s mostly at *, some at North and maybe one or 2 at Footscray and Carlton) he was one I wouldn't have picked even to make a senior side. Cos of his attitude. Which is why I'm interested in seeing how he goes, (that and he's still got one of my formal onions.) But he was playing u19s at North which meant he was exposed to Denis Pagan.

Looking back that may be what made him.

I didn't know him that well that I would have seen the qualities in him that would make him a leader, a coach or anything tho. But that's not to say they weren't there.

There were some good footy players in that year and he was one, and he worked hard on the field as an outside mid - but only one of the players I really rated actually actually made it and he went home to Colac first. That was John Barnes.

I'd stopped playing footy by yr 12 too tho. I really didn't like it. It was like a religion at that school (St Bernards) and it shat me no end. If it wasn't for north at Arden st i would have given up on the game. So I couldn't really say what he was like in that side. They were a good team and iirc lost the Herald Shield final to Assumption.

A lot of people mature well after their Teens have ended. I was a classmate of a North great who could barely write his own name at 17. He is now a very well spoken and somewhat inspirational man who put himself through Uni, helps charity and is an unofficial spokesman for mental health.