Post Covid Australia - When do we open up and what does it look like?

[Aristotle Pickett]

From what I've heard, herd immunity can't be reached, as infected vaccinated people will carry the same viral load as non vaccinated, even if they are asymptomatic.
This is due to the Delta variant.
So eventually everyone catches it, the unvaccinated get sick and we live with masks and until a treatment drug is found.
And intermittent lockdowns when hospitals fill up.

 

[kranky al]

I think this line of thought takes us back to the primary issue, which is that adults should have the chance to get vaccinated and then once that period of time has elapsed those that have made the choice not to are exposed to the community not having restrictions anymore.

Because children aren't at risk with this virus, vaccinating them is for the protection of mostly the over 80s. Exposing them to as yet unknown effects of the vaccine would be introducing a risk above that of covid to them, and if we are leaning on the children to do their part to protect adults who have chosen to not get vaccinated then we have it arse backwards.

Obviously there are adults who can't get vaccinated, but this is not a general case.

4000 kids have died from gamma in south america this year.


Newer variants of the virus dont discriminate based on age

 

[Suspense]

If 80% have been vaxed, then 20% are unvaxed. I don't see the CHOs easing up under that scenario unless Covid becomes endemic.

The one advantage of being so ******* slow with our vaccine rollout - is that we will have multiple real-world data models to base our decision on when to best open up.

Canada is the one to watch IMO as we share many similarities (western culture with leaders that prioritise health above all, universal publicly funded healthcare, population, GDP, large landmass with several high-density urban cities, endured long lockdowns, same mix of Pfizer/Moderna/AZ vaccines).

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Let's not pretend that Australia is Brazil.

If you look at the US numbers and remove the children suffering serious medical conditions you're left at practically zero.

I remember a world leader referring to Covid numbers being practically zero once. There is something about the flippancy of that statement and the notion that immuno compromised kids are dispensable.

I'd rather lock up the non-vaccinated in their homes. Sacrifice the ones that do have a choice.

 

[Suspense]

no vaccine passports please

this crazy fear is not logical. one can catch covid off a vaccinated person as well as an un-vaccinated. further if you are vaccinated what is the issue?

It's not about whether you or I catch covid on a personal level. It's a systematic problem.

Higher unvaxxed population means higher COVID hospitalisations.
Higher hospitalisations means more strain on healthcare system.
More strain on the healthcare system means more restrictions/lockdowns.
More lockdowns means more economic, mental health, education, social costs.

Which part of this is irrational? Because I can show you the data.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Should be January 1. Honestly that’s plenty of time. You should have enough time to get double jabbed by then. Eventually we have to say enough is enough. If that means a few more hospitalisations then so be it. You’ve have the opportunity to get the jab and if you decide not to so be it. You’ve taken the risk.

I like what Britain have done (now we aren’t where Britain are yet). That should be the model.

 

[Taylor]

I remember a world leader referring to Covid numbers being practically zero once. There is something about the flippancy of that statement and the notion that immuno compromised kids are dispensable.

I'd rather lock up the non-vaccinated in their homes. Sacrifice the ones that do have a choice.

We can keep everyone in their homes forever and we will still have children die.

Unfortunately the reality of human existence is that fairness for living free of the burden of disability, bad health and general bad luck isn't shared around evenly - some unfortunate people get a lot of it, I know, I am very close to some families who has more than their fair share of it.

A girl a street over died from the flu, a nurse, early twenties, caring for people with it in hospital. A fit, young girl. Just really unlucky.

We can't save everyone no matter how much we try.

We can try, sure. We can do that. It's worth a go, but it looks like lockdowns even with 100% vaccination, some children suffering from that treatment and people still dying.

Protecting vulnerable children is the job of the adults to get vaccinated, not the children.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

We can keep everyone in their homes forever and we will still have children die.

Unfortunately the reality of human existence is that fairness for living free of the burden of disability, bad health and general bad luck isn't shared around evenly - some unfortunate people get a lot of it, I know, I am very close to some families who has more than their fair share of it.

A girl a street over died from the flu, a nurse, early twenties, caring for people with it in hospital. A fit, young girl. Just really unlucky.

We can't save everyone no matter how much we try.

We can try, sure. We can do that. It's worth a go, but it looks like lockdowns even with 100% vaccination, some children suffering from that treatment and people still dying.

Protecting vulnerable children is the job of the adults to get vaccinated, not the children.

It's getting to the stage where these things aren't just unlucky, but completely negligent.

The irony is conservatives want to open up the economy, whereas the majority of those who refuse to get vaccinated so we can open up are conservatives.

Millions of budding Neros just wanting to watch things burn. * them I say.

 

[Gough]

It's getting to the stage where these things aren't just unlucky, but completely negligent.

The irony is conservatives want to open up the economy, whereas the majority of those who refuse to get vaccinated so we can open up are conservatives.

Millions of budding Neros just wanting to watch things burn. fu** them I say.

Excuses for their inability to contain covid has become a bit like their reasons for the failure of socialism for conservatives, they scream human nature at the top of their voice and wipe their hands of it.

 

[Taylor]

It's getting to the stage where these things aren't just unlucky, but completely negligent.

The irony is conservatives want to open up the economy, whereas the majority of those who refuse to get vaccinated so we can open up are conservatives.

Millions of budding Neros just wanting to watch things burn. fu** them I say.

We can achieve a compromise where we are completely open in Australia if we keep out everyone from overseas, then nobody here will die at all.

 

[Taylor]

Excuses for their inability to contain covid has become a bit like their reasons for the failure of socialism for conservatives, they scream human nature at the top of their voice and wipe their hands of it.

If you haven't learned that big government control is heavily flawed by watching covid being managed world wide then you're never going to wake up to that.

The last lever people are trying to pull now is to have the government require vaccines, make them mandatory. This is being pressured by business who want to do that but are too worried about the blowback they will get for it, so are trying to hand the burden upwards to the government to take that hit instead.

The solution again is simple, businesses should be able to discriminate based on what rules they want to put in place and people should be able to watch those businesses go under if people don't want to either follow their rules or jump through their hoops. Such as going to the footy, if you don't want to answer medical questions you can stay home, if you're not vaccinated you might decide that the business doesn't want your money and you don't give it to them.

I expect this is why they want the government to do it for them, but they won't. They will have to wear the cost themselves, which means it doesn't happen.

 

[Taylor]

It's getting to the stage where these things aren't just unlucky, but completely negligent.

The irony is conservatives want to open up the economy, whereas the majority of those who refuse to get vaccinated so we can open up are conservatives.

Millions of budding Neros just wanting to watch things burn. fu** them I say.

If people have made a choice for themselves then that's their choice. If you've made it clear that you're going to open the nation back up and only those who haven't chosen to be vaccinated will be at risk (as well as those who can't be vaccinated), then they've made their choice.

Unfortunately the reality is that we need to get out of the mentality that you've got where covid deaths are a result of someone in power's negligence. As long as people think that all covid deaths are preventable then we can't have any covid deaths at all.

If we were 100% vaccinated we would still get covid deaths. This reality with the above position is untenable.

 

[Power Raid]

It's not about whether you or I catch covid on a personal level. It's a systematic problem.

Higher unvaxxed population means higher COVID hospitalisations.
Higher hospitalisations means more strain on healthcare system.
More strain on the healthcare system means more restrictions/lockdowns.
More lockdowns means more economic, mental health, education, social costs.

Which part of this is irrational? Because I can show you the data.

I hear you

but more people have died from influenza and pneumonia than covid in the UK and no doubt Australia in the last 6 months. So why discriminate by disease?

if we support euthanasia, how can we discriminate against someone willingly exposing themselves to covid risk?
if we know the risk categories of covid are hypertension, diabetes and heart disease, why not ban fast food, alcohol and mandate exercise?
75% of all world road deaths are caused by males under the age of 25, why don't we just ban young men from driving?

The answer to the issue you highlight is simple. We do not have to institutionalise discrimination.
- We can educate
- We can encourage
- We can offer incentives such as payments (like donating sperm)
- We can remove family A and child rebates

But restricting freedom of movement within Australia, restricting the right to gather, restricting the right to participate based on vaccination is no less disgraceful than discriminating on age, sexual orientation, religion or the colour of one's skin.

Medical in confidence exists because people discriminate. This discussion highlights exactly that.



and no, there would be no more lock downs. That's the point of opening up once everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated. Those that aren't vaccinated will simply take the risk.

 

[Suspense]

I hear you

but more people have died from influenza and pneumonia than covid in the UK and no doubt Australia in the last 6 months. So why discriminate by disease?

Influenza is endemic. You are comparing apples to oranges. Why has the world trashed the global economy and endured over a year of restrictions and lockdowns for something that is just as bad the flu?

if we support euthanasia, how can we discriminate against someone willingly exposing themselves to covid risk?

These people will get sick in greater proportions and, our universal health care system ensues that they will be treated. Are you suggesting that unvaccinated people who are severely ill with COVID should be denied healthcare and entry to ICUs because 'they must have a death wish'?
I'd suggest that is far more unethical than a vax passport.

if we know the risk categories of covid are hypertension, diabetes and heart disease, why not ban fast food, alcohol and mandate exercise?
75% of all world road deaths are caused by males under the age of 25, why don't we just ban young men from driving?

The answer to the issue you highlight is simple. We do not have to institutionalise discrimination.
- We can educate
- We can encourage
- We can offer incentives such as payments (like donating sperm)
- We can remove family A and child rebates

But restricting freedom of movement within Australia, restricting the right to gather, restricting the right to participate based on vaccination is no less disgraceful than discriminating on age, sexual orientation, religion or the colour of one's skin.

We have all sorts of discriminations that we, as a society, deem reasonable - particularly age based discrimination.

It's entirely reasonable for the industries that have been most impacted by COVID lockdowns, require that those who wish to continue to draw a salary, or those that wish to enjoy the goods/services that those industries provide to society, do their part to help.

Isn't removing FTB based on vaccine status 'discriminatory'? I'm having trouble seeing where the line is here.

and no, there would be no more lock downs. That's the point of opening up once everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated. Those that aren't vaccinated will simply take the risk.

And it is the healthcare system that will have to deal with those people - until they can't - and then we are back in lockdown. Please apply some pragmatism to the situation.

 

[Ok Boomer]

80% vaccination rate seems reasonable. I am not sure where kids fall in regards to this but maybe it should include 12+ at least. I think we will get there easily but if too many of the population drag their heels then we should open up regardless.

Restrictions on vaccinated Australians leaving should disappear as soon as possible. For me this should be when all ages can access vaccines without restriction, for equality. I am 100% against restrictions on Australians traveling TO certain countries (except for any restrictions that existed pre COVID), I can easily see this degenerating into discrimination/keep the brown people out rhetoric that we see too often.

The NZ opening plan that was announced today is delusional in the delta variant environment.

 

[Ok Boomer]

no vaccine passports please

this crazy fear is not logical. one can catch covid off a vaccinated person as well as an un-vaccinated. further if you are vaccinated what is the issue?

discrimination comes in many forms and this is an ugly one.

should we ban irrational fear?

Vaccine passports will be dictated by the rest of the world. If they are widely adopted then our position doesn't really matter domestically.

My biggest concern with them is not discrimination between Vax/Anti Vax but discrimination based on vaccine types which will no doubt screw over developing nations the most.

 

[pazza]

Vaccine passports will be dictated by the rest of the world. If they are widely adopted then our position doesn't really matter domestically.

Indeed look at Europe. Already in place and welcoming vaccinated Americans...

 

[Power Raid]

Vaccine passports will be dictated by the rest of the world. If they are widely adopted then our position doesn't really matter domestically.

My biggest concern with them is not discrimination between Vax/Anti Vax but discrimination based on vaccine types which will no doubt screw over developing nations the most.

I don't have an issue with passports for international travel, as what other nations do is their prerogative. I have an issue with calls for passports for domestic travel and to enter venues or gatherings.

 

[Power Raid]

Influenza is endemic. You are comparing apples to oranges. Why has the world trashed the global economy and endured over a year of restrictions and lockdowns for something that is just as bad the flu?


These people will get sick in greater proportions and, our universal health care system ensues that they will be treated. Are you suggesting that unvaccinated people who are severely ill with COVID should be denied healthcare and entry to ICUs because 'they must have a death wish'?
I'd suggest that is far more unethical than a vax passport.


We have all sorts of discriminations that we, as a society, deem reasonable - particularly age based discrimination.

It's entirely reasonable for the industries that have been most impacted by COVID lockdowns, require that those who wish to continue to draw a salary, or those that wish to enjoy the goods/services that those industries provide to society, do their part to help.

Isn't removing FTB based on vaccine status 'discriminatory'? I'm having trouble seeing where the line is here.


And it is the healthcare system that will have to deal with those people - until they can't - and then we are back in lockdown. Please apply some pragmatism to the situation.

receiving family benefits is not a freedom

where freedom to assemble and freedom of movement are


Being pragmatic is planning and having the resources to cope with demand. Discrimination and attacking freedoms, simply because an individual has refused health care (which is a right) is not pragmatism.

 

[Suspense]

receiving family benefits is not a freedom

where freedom to assemble and freedom of movement are

Like I said, we place reasonable restrictions on freedoms all the time. This is no different.

Being pragmatic is planning and having the resources to cope with demand. Discrimination and attacking freedoms, simply because an individual has refused health care (which is a right) is not pragmatism.

No. Being pragmatic is acknowledging that we don't currently have the resources to cope with the demand - and it would take a long time and a lot of investment to scale up to meet that required demand.

 

[Power Raid]

Like I said, we place reasonable restrictions on freedoms all the time. This is no different.


No. Being pragmatic is acknowledging that we don't currently have the resources to cope with the demand - and it would take a long time and a lot of investment to scale up to meet that required demand.

so currently we don't have discriminating restrictions on the un-vaccinated but you support discrimination in the future with vaccine passports to attend gatherings, freedom of association and freedom of movement within Australia............ok that's "reasonable"

nah....it's ugly and driven by fear

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

so currently we don't have discriminating restrictions on the un-vaccinated but you support discrimination in the future with vaccine passports to attend gatherings, freedom of association and freedom of movement within Australia............ok that's "reasonable"

nah....it's ugly and driven by fear

No, the unvaccinated are driven by fear and don't care who they kill off while they demand their freedoms. I don't have much time for them playing the victim when they spread conspiracies and are themselves the stumbling block to beating this thing.

 

[Seedsfan]

It’s time to stop buying into all the fear mongering and get back to business as usual. If they keep dragging this out they will destroy the economy completely

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

It’s time to stop buying into all the fear mongering and get back to business as usual. If they keep dragging this out they will destroy the economy completely

Tell people to get vaccinated and we can get back to business.

 

[Suspense]

so currently we don't have discriminating restrictions on the un-vaccinated but you support discrimination in the future with vaccine passports to attend gatherings, freedom of association and freedom of movement within Australia............ok that's "reasonable"

nah....it's ugly and driven by fear

That's an opinion. What is vaccine hesitancy based on - if not fear?

In case you haven't noticed, we haven't been able to attend large gatherings, associate freely or travel within Australia for over a year. Why? Because it is necessary. Eventually, your freedom to once again enjoy those 'benefits' will be determined upon whether you played your role in minimising the burden on the healthcare system in the midst of a global pandemic.

Call it "discrimination" all you wish - I call it being a responsible person who has signed the social contract - allowing me to enjoy the rights that being part of a society brings. And I'm far from alone in that view.

Once we have sufficient supplies of Moderna and Pfizer, should our vaccine rates not be at a high enough %, then reasonable and lawful restrictions that discriminate based on vaccine status will be enacted regardless of your opinion. This may include restricting freedoms on employment, attending events, venues, travel etc. In times of emergency, these restrictions will be deemed lawful and able to be enforced.

When the s**t hits the fan, pragmatism will always take precedence over empty ideology.