Post mortem of Australian cricket

[Doodlesweaver]

Fortunately saw quite a bit of Richards when he was here and I can honestly say he is the best batsman I've ever seen. Lara second and a group of absolute champions not too far behind.

Richards' timing of the ball was sublime, seemed to get maximum reward for minimal effort. The key of course was his footwork. IMHO, he had a gift in being able to get his feet in place to play a shot quicker than anyone I've seen. One masterful stroke was a "pull shot" from the quicks that would rocket between mid wicket and mid on, that's how quick he got onto it. Incredible player.

Some people tell me Pollock was even better, but I didn't see enough of Pollock to judge for myself.

You sound like my Dad, he could go on about Richards all night, having bowled to him in Perth grade cricket

 

[Doodlesweaver]

You’re ignoring the fact the openers failed in almost every game - and did so with incredibly low strike rates.

We've had problems with an opening partner for Warner since Rogers left. I wish they'd given Ussie a proper run at it but too late now.

 

[Doodlesweaver]

One thing that needs to be looked at is the inability to keep the foot on the throat of the opposition when you have them reeling. This is not just within sessions or matches, but in the context of entire series.

This was already apparent in England-- in the fifth test, Australia have all the momentum and just need a draw to win the series, so why send them in and give them a chance to wrestle back control of the match?

Then in Melbourne this summer. After you bowl a side out for 36, you don't want to give them an inch in the next match. Just needed to a scrounge out a par score on day one, which would have given the Indians little to work with. But getting skittled for sub 200 means the momentum has evaporated in 2 sessions.

Likewise in Brisbane, the Indian attack is so depleted that they have 13 wickets in between them-- surely just use a modicum of patience to grind them into dust? But most of our top six pissed their wickets away, giving India hope that their makeshift attack might be able to do it to them.

But it's most apparent in the fielding efforts in Brisbane. You've got a heap of runs to play with, all you need is a couple of wickets to break them, so go on the attack! Do not let a debutant Washington Sundar edge through the cordon early on, nab him out! Do not let Pujara endlessly bad away Lyon, have men in there!

Obviously Paine is the most visible and symbolic problem here, but I'd say it rests more with Langer. He should be making everyone acutely aware of the match and series situations, and making sure noone is going to let the advantage slip.

How do you know Langer isn't doing that? And the catching for both sides was pretty bloody awful. Marnus would be thanking his lucky stars that the Indian catching was poor.

 

[Bwillow11]

You’re ignoring the fact the openers failed in almost every game - and did so with incredibly low strike rates.

Of course, but I feel Smith and Labuschagne have to improve as well, everyone should be under the microscope in this team.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

You sound like my Dad, he could go on about Richards all night, having bowled to him in Perth grade cricket

I've posted this before, but I had the rare pleasure of bowling to Richards in a coaching clinic he and Greg Chappell did for Coca Cola when he was in Adelaide. I was amazed, even as a 15 year old, to witness his footwork. It seemed he had an extra ability to read the ball early. It felt like the ball was still leaving my fingers and he was already in position, and he got it right every time.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I've wondered for a while if the way our coaching system is set up is counter productive to player development.

Let's take a good young player who represents his state at U17 or U19 level.

He will have come through a club system and been coached along the way.

Now that he's in the state junior system he almost farewells his club coach(es). Has a new batch of coaches to look after his development.

Which is fine - players are meant to move through the pathway.

HOWEVER... the state junior system is based around an annual national carnival. Coaches are focused on picking a team for that and winning games. They are often reluctant to tinker or adjust a player's game because you don't want the player to be 'learning' a new technique during or in the lead up to a national carnival.

If the player does well at the carnival then they get identified for a Cricket Australia squad. Maybe fly up there for a camp or a longer stay. Come across another group of new coaches. Again the program is designed around a World Cup or international junior matches. Same issues as at state level.

*If* the coaches do identify an area to improve then it's only a short stay so they don't have time to work through it with them or bed it down.

There's always a national carnival or international match on the horizon so when can players take a time out to refine and develop their game?

These players flit between club, state and national systems. Spend time with a variety of coaches, some of whom have KPIs other than long term player development. Often do not have a 'go to' person.

Responsibility for the development of the player is spread across a number of different people. No one is ultimately responsible.

It crystalised for me when Nathan Lyon talked about how he improved his batting by having sessions with his brother. Even our test players don't have the required support from within the structure. If he doesn't then how do players below test level go...? I'm sure I've heard that Smith has his own external coach.

I know I haven't offered any solution here. Just a vent/thought bubble

 

[PhatBoy]

I've wondered for a while if the way our coaching system is set up is counter productive to player development.

Let's take a good young player who represents his state at U17 or U19 level.

He will have come through a club system and been coached along the way.

Now that he's in the state junior system he almost farewells his club coach(es). Has a new batch of coaches to look after his development.

Which is fine - players are meant to move through the pathway.

HOWEVER... the state junior system is based around an annual national carnival. Coaches are focused on picking a team for that and winning games. They are often reluctant to tinker or adjust a player's game because you don't want the player to be 'learning' a new technique during or in the lead up to a national carnival.

If the player does well at the carnival then they get identified for a Cricket Australia squad. Maybe fly up there for a camp or a longer stay. Come across another group of new coaches. Again the program is designed around a World Cup or international junior matches. Same issues as at state level.

*If* the coaches do identify an area to improve then it's only a short stay so they don't have time to work through it with them or bed it down.

There's always a national carnival or international match on the horizon so when can players take a time out to refine and develop their game?

These players flit between club, state and national systems. Spend time with a variety of coaches, some of whom have KPIs other than long term player development. Often do not have a 'go to' person.

Responsibility for the development of the player is spread across a number of different people. No one is ultimately responsible.

It crystalised for me when Nathan Lyon talked about how he improved his batting by having sessions with his brother. Even our test players don't have the required support from within the structure. If he doesn't then how do players below test level go...? I'm sure I've heard that Smith has his own external coach.

I know I haven't offered any solution here. Just a vent/thought bubble

As a non coach or administrator I haven’t got a clue how all this stuff is done but from talking to kids and a few coaches and parents who are involved in development squads in my region it seems like with a lot of kids they get problems ‘coached out of them’ that don’t really exist. Like say a kid gets too squared up in defence or something, whenever they are on the back foot, seems as though they are taught to get out of that habit even when it doesn’t actually present a problem for them.

Meanwhile if they had a textbook technique with their off drive but it was constantly getting them out, that would be ignored.

Game awareness is also something that younger players don’t seem to have a lot of in my experience recently

 

[MelVilander]

Good piece this on the rise of India:

Raw talent plus IPL cash point to an era of Indian dominance | Andy Bull

Their stunning Test series victory in Australia may go down as a watershed moment as the game’s global power shifts to India

www.theguardian.com

Here's a crucial quote for those thinking about whether our system is up to scratch:

After this, it is hard to imagine how they will start a series as underdogs again, wherever they play. It’s not just that, as Justin Langer said after the match, “there’s 1.5 billion Indians” to pick from. They have always had the numbers. But now they have the system to winnow and hone the best players from the largest talent pool on the planet.

In the last decade, for instance, India have developed a formidable ‘A’ team programme, led by the head coach Rahul Dravid. They’ve played 33 first class games in the last five years, which is more than twice as many as either Australia A or the England Lions have managed. And it is paying off. Siraj had taken 70 first-class wickets for India A in the last three years, Saini 34, Thakur, 23.

Indian population is 1.3 bil. Out of which 50% is probably more bothered about finding next meal. Out of the rest an other 25 % is non cricketing world North East bengal kerala etc. India has around 250 mil Middle class and around 150 to 200 in urban setting with reasonable access to amenities.

JUSTIN LANGER is giving an excuse for why his side lost. What is aus per capita income lol 30 k dollars ?? Hehe its ridiculous that India even competes with wealthy nations like Aus who have endless resources compared to poor nation like India.

 

[PhatBoy]

Indian population is 1.3 bil. Out of which 50% is probably more bothered about finding next meal. Out of the rest an other 25 % is non cricketing world North East bengal kerala etc. India has around 250 mil Middle class and around 150 to 200 in urban setting with reasonable access to amenities.

JUSTIN LANGER is giving an excuse for why his side lost. What is aus per capita income lol 30 k dollars ?? Hehe its ridiculous that India even competes with wealthy nations like Aus who have endless resources compared to poor nation like India.

i think reality is somewhere in the middle.

New Zealand are 6-time World Cup semi-finalists, should have won the thing, currently #1 Test side, routinely competitive if nothing else. Tiny population, distant second to rugby as far as national passions on the sporting field go. The thing in its favour is infrastructure and access.

West Indies: 2 time ODI world cup winners, 2 time T20 world cup winners, dominated the game for nearly 20 years. Population similar to NZ, not actually a country so little national unifying pride, low income in most of the nations and general lack of infrastructure and organisation. The thing in their favour is despite the attraction of basketball, soccer and boxing and athletics, it is still the most popular sport in the Caribbean so its still the first port of call for junior sportspeople.

South Africa: Basically at any given time in the last 28 years, in the top 2 teams on the planet with a couple of brief exceptions. Big country population wise comparable to England but made up by 92 per cent coloured people who for a long time had no connection to or realistic access to cricket. In their favour is good infrastructure in a lot of places and reasonable administration and coaching most of the time and a clear plan to move forward even if it has some issues at the moment.

There's pros and cons for every team and using the population card is very very short sighted as it IS a factor but it is just one of many, and ultimately it's not a war - you don't just add more blokes and win matches by weight of numbers. You can only have 11 at a time.

 

[Gethelred]

As a non coach or administrator I haven’t got a clue how all this stuff is done but from talking to kids and a few coaches and parents who are involved in development squads in my region it seems like with a lot of kids they get problems ‘coached out of them’ that don’t really exist. Like say a kid gets too squared up in defence or something, whenever they are on the back foot, seems as though they are taught to get out of that habit even when it doesn’t actually present a problem for them.

Meanwhile if they had a textbook technique with their off drive but it was constantly getting them out, that would be ignored.

Game awareness is also something that younger players don’t seem to have a lot of in my experience recently

The Smith dilemma: bloke plays with a titanic bottom hand grip and squares up wholesale for the ball on the stumps - which he's batting right in front of - and plays square of the wicket when he should be driving straight.

However...

The bloke gets 3/4 of his runs from people trying to get him out LBW. He'd find a gap in the leg side field if you had all 9 fielders there. It doesn't affect his play off side (although he experiences some trouble at times hitting through straight mid off) and while it looks deeply unorthodox he's the second best since Bradman.

There's something to be said for what you're saying here, but at least in my area a lot of the coaches are awfully permissive of some pretty rudimentary stuff. Had a kid who was getting private coaching from an extremely well thought of coach- who I won't name; he's played international cricket - who liked to glide the ball through third man from almost any ball, to the point of backing away from the thing if it was short to get his favourite shot. His coach, instead of correcting this mistake which will see him get hurt when someone notices the fact that his first instinct to the short ball isn't to hook it or get under it but to back away, expanded the shot and encouraged it.

Now, said kid is a gun, and he's got every shot anyway, but it's still a huge issue. There's no real teaching cohesiveness, and very frequently a kid (or their parents) is going to go with the more credentialed coach over the person who's making their son do what doesn't come as naturally. I liken Australian cricket coaching at park and low level representative level to the world we see depicted in a martial arts movie, in which each village has their own dojo and their own methods, and people drift in and out based purely on the master's reputation.

There has to be an element of compromise in coaching. You can't just tell a kid not to play a shot - although I've done that before; kid was the worst judge of a sweepable ball, kept getting bowled - and you can't get everyone up to test level in their play, but what you can do certainly is try to play to their strengths and help them try to become what they want to be. But I certainly agree with Drugs Are Bad Mackay? when they talk about the junior carnival setup, and how much is truly left to the player to decide their own trajectory instead of players being worked with and developed by those who know what they're doing from a young age.

 

[Cleavy]

Todd Greenberg named new Australian Cricketers' Association chief executive

Greenberg was chief executive of the NRL before resigning last year

www.espncricinfo.com

lol Greenberg will fix everything!

 

[dinnaz]

Regarding the Shield BBL balance conundrum:

As mentioned above, could the Shield start in September, with all 10 rounds done by mid December? The final could then occur the week before Christmas. This gives continuity to our FC players.

Meanwhile the test summer would kick off early November, with the last two tests of the summer always in the traditional boxing day/new years slot. Selectors have a lot of info on who should be in the XI.

The BBL can kick off on Boxing day night, and go on for as long as they want in the new year, which from an international perspective would be dedicated to ODI and T20I.

Only issue I would see is that overseas tours like South Africa that kick off in March would have no recent shield form to go off, but that is no different to an English Ashes squad or any Indian tour either.

AFL finals run through September with most cricket grounds still used. Plus time for pitch prep means an October start is most likely. But why not play matches in Tassie, Canberra, or at the WACA etc etc

 

[t_94]

As a non coach or administrator I haven’t got a clue how all this stuff is done but from talking to kids and a few coaches and parents who are involved in development squads in my region it seems like with a lot of kids they get problems ‘coached out of them’ that don’t really exist. Like say a kid gets too squared up in defence or something, whenever they are on the back foot, seems as though they are taught to get out of that habit even when it doesn’t actually present a problem for them.

Meanwhile if they had a textbook technique with their off drive but it was constantly getting them out, that would be ignored.

Game awareness is also something that younger players don’t seem to have a lot of in my experience recently

Need sound judgement there as some of those problems will likely present a problem for them as they face better bowling.

 

[holybishop]

If this is the position Langer and co are taking from a shocking summer then they're in for another summer of pain

 

[PhatBoy]

If this is the position Langer and co are taking from a shocking summer then they're in for another summer of pain

Two really good years? For a player who at one stage would have gone 2 years without even losing a single test, that’s pretty low as far as standards go.

Fairly underwhelming world cup campaign. Lost series to Pakistan, and getting a draw in one of those tests was actually a major achievement. Drawn ashes series - yes the trophy was retained but once upon a time keeping the trophy with a 3-1 win was the achievement, not keeping it with a 2-2 draw. Win over a listless Pakistan in Australia. Win over a good New Zealand side which was probably the high point of that two years. A loss at home to an India side missing the better part of an entire team through injury and unavailability.

I would say that’s a mixed bag at best, not a ‘good two years of cricket.’

 

[big_e]

If this is the position Langer and co are taking from a shocking summer then they're in for another summer of pain

These things were known at the time. Sure, it might have been obscure, but when it's your job, you bloody make sure you don't get caught out.

 

[Gethelred]

Two really good years? For a player who at one stage would have gone 2 years without even losing a single test, that’s pretty low as far as standards go.

Fairly underwhelming world cup campaign. Lost series to Pakistan, and getting a draw in one of those tests was actually a major achievement. Drawn ashes series - yes the trophy was retained but once upon a time keeping the trophy with a 3-1 win was the achievement, not keeping it with a 2-2 draw. Win over a listless Pakistan in Australia. Win over a good New Zealand side which was probably the high point of that two years. A loss at home to an India side missing the better part of an entire team through injury and unavailability.

I would say that’s a mixed bag at best, not a ‘good two years of cricket.’

Bit of negative spin there. Pakistan were not listless coming into the series. Australia were in full decline in ODI cricket prior to the world cup; making the finals from the position we were in was an achievement, really. Barring one abberant and subpar umpire's utter cowardice, Australia would've won the Ashes 3-1.

What we've done after our 2 best bats for a year has been pretty ******* decent. Discovered Marnus. Promoted Green and Pucovski. Managed Smith and Warner's return. Didn't underachieve at the WC, by any measure; SA would be envious of our ability to turn up and just get the job done with almost any squad, despite playing cricket the way we won the last WC and not moving with the times.

I mean, I could make a similar list concerning every nation with the exception of India recently.

 

[PhatBoy]

Bit of negative spin there. Pakistan were not listless coming into the series. Australia were in full decline in ODI cricket prior to the world cup; making the finals from the position we were in was an achievement, really. Barring one abberant and subpar umpire's utter cowardice, Australia would've won the Ashes 3-1.

What we've done after our 2 best bats for a year has been pretty ******* decent. Discovered Marnus. Promoted Green and Pucovski. Managed Smith and Warner's return. Didn't underachieve at the WC, by any measure; SA would be envious of our ability to turn up and just get the job done with almost any squad, despite playing cricket the way we won the last WC and not moving with the times.

I mean, I could make a similar list concerning every nation with the exception of India recently.

Some decent points but some misses too.

Absolutely Labuschagne has been a revelation, huge to come out of the suspensions. Smith has come back in seemlessly.

Green will obviously be a good player I have no doubt about that and I guess blooding him is a positive but it hasn’t really borne fruit yet. Warner seems to have lost a bit, the Ashes failure knocked him around and combined with his fitness he hasn’t regained his mojo yet. Pucovski looked class but again, no real dividends yet.

Wade has fallen off the cliff seemingly and who knows if he will return. Head hasn’t kicked on, and Khawaja who was the fulcrum of the Australian side during the suspensions has disappeared off the test radar. Patterson I thought was a shoe in for more test cricket but hasn’t had that chance yet.

Cummins has been simply sublime and has fully earned his world’s best status and quietly in the background I believe Hazlewood has improved even more. Countering that, Lyon is not the threat he once was and Starc too has lost a bit of his spark.

I don’t think Australia ‘failed’ over the two years in question, especially relative to most other teams particularly South Africa but I don’t think they’ve taken many steps where you’d say ‘yep this is going to lead to something great.’

 

[PhatBoy]

I meant misses in terms of the Aussie team, not your post, by the way

 

[Dhoni Dakurri]

Surely Paine has to cop the axe for Australia missing out on the WTC final for a slow over rate. Everything about that guy reeks of village. Mediocre keeping, batting, terrible captaincy, s**t chat.

 

[Gethelred]

Some decent points but some misses too.

Absolutely Labuschagne has been a revelation, huge to come out of the suspensions. Smith has come back in seemlessly.

Green will obviously be a good player I have no doubt about that and I guess blooding him is a positive but it hasn’t really borne fruit yet. Warner seems to have lost a bit, the Ashes failure knocked him around and combined with his fitness he hasn’t regained his mojo yet. Pucovski looked class but again, no real dividends yet.

Wade has fallen off the cliff seemingly and who knows if he will return. Head hasn’t kicked on, and Khawaja who was the fulcrum of the Australian side during the suspensions has disappeared off the test radar. Patterson I thought was a shoe in for more test cricket but hasn’t had that chance yet.

Cummins has been simply sublime and has fully earned his world’s best status and quietly in the background I believe Hazlewood has improved even more. Countering that, Lyon is not the threat he once was and Starc too has lost a bit of his spark.

I don’t think Australia ‘failed’ over the two years in question, especially relative to most other teams particularly South Africa but I don’t think they’ve taken many steps where you’d say ‘yep this is going to lead to something great.’

I would agree with all that, but the post I responded to was critical of Langer's comments concerning the last 2 years.

I think - given that I'm definitely not Langer's biggest fan - that his comments were fine. Without astounding or sparkling success, sure, but we've played some decent cricket and were likely to play more pre-covid, and we've yet to truly see how long it takes everyone to get back into the swing of things completely.

 

[King Elvis]

If this is the position Langer and co are taking from a shocking summer then they're in for another summer of pain

Absolutely pathetic that they weren’t aware of this.

I like Langer, but not as much as I did when he was a player - he presents terribly, and is full of excuses.

Think his time is running out.

 

[Westend]

Absolutely pathetic that they weren’t aware of this.

I like Langer, but not as much as I did when he was a player - he presents terribly, and is full of excuses.

Think his time is running out.

Umm no the team is okay Langer is safe...but if they lose the Ashes then yes he will be under heaps of pressure...but I do not think we will lose

time wasting was a joke....interesting it was Australia getting pinged not the other big test playing nations

 

[PhatBoy]

Umm no the team is okay Langer is safe...but if they lose the Ashes then yes he will be under heaps of pressure...but I do not think we will lose

time wasting was a joke....interesting it was Australia getting pinged not the other big test playing nations

I know they’ve not a ‘big’ test playing nation but Jason Holder has missed multiple tests for slow over rates

 

[King Elvis]

Umm no the team is okay Langer is safe...but if they lose the Ashes then yes he will be under heaps of pressure...but I do not think we will lose

time wasting was a joke....interesting it was Australia getting pinged not the other big test playing nations

Remember when the MCG got a warning for a sub-par pitch?