Autopsy post mortem v hawks

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Pykie

Brownlow Medallist
Sep 17, 2006
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I rewatched both the Saints and Hawks games after JZ got injured this morning.


He suffocates Thomas when they are in the same forward line. They are essentially playing the same role. Working into the same areas and wanting the same amount of forward entries. Thomas has been conceding the majority of these entries to Jack though.

No coincidence CD had Thomas as close to the best player on the ground from right after JZ got injured in the Saints game and then again late in the last quarter last night after JZ left the field.

It's also no conicidence that Thomas is averaging about 6 touches a game whilst JZ is on the field.

He has a whole heap more space to work into and he's the designated second/third marking target when Jack isn't there.


It would of been Jack not Thomas flying for those marks and ground balls in the last had he been there. The result obviously would've been completely different and not in a good way.

Thomas needs to play (and given the license) of the JZ/Wood designated 3rd forward role imo, whenever he has been given that opportunity, he's been near the best player on the ground.
 
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Val Keating

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Dec 27, 2017
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The lack of lead hit up forward was an issue all game
The midfield and forward cohesion was way off. Maybe they’re adjusting to a new game plan? It’s hard to tell with the telle coverage mainly using close up camera frame.

Something is off though and I don’t think it’s because Larkey isn’t playing.
 

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Marstermind

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Why the **** everytime Tazza or Walker take a mark, they slow it down, and go back and then go sideways 15m to an unmanned McDonald or Pittard or Marley ?

And then the recipient of the pass goes back and slows it down again ?

Meanwhile the Hawthorn defence are setting up and double teaming Brown and getting ready for when we eventually do go forward.

We didnt play on enough....We didnt take risks....We played into their hands....

It was sad to watch. It was frustrating to watch.
We play like every other club. Risk free, scared of turnover score. It makes us pretty much what every other side is - unpredictable, slow, boring to watch and frustrating as hell. And our skills aren't good enough to hold onto the ball long enough. When we've had a crack we've got ourselves back into every game. No coincidence.

The coach who has a decent team, and is willing to take risks and open up the game can win this year's flag. The rest are just serving the AFL's need to get this season over and done with, and they are doing it in a mind-numbingly dreary way.
 

Val Keating

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Dec 27, 2017
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I rewatched both the Saints and Hawks games after JZ got injured this morning.


He suffocates Thomas when they are in the same forward line. They are essentially playing the same role.

No coincidence CD had Thomas as close to the best player on the ground from right after JZ got injured in the Saints game and then again late in the last quarter last night after JZ left the field.

He has a whole heap more space to work into and he's the designated second/third marking target when Jack isn't there.


It would of been Jack not Thomas flying for those marks and ground balls in the last had he been there. The result obviously would've been completely different and not in a good way.

Thomas needs to play (and given the license) of the JZ/Wood designated 3rd forward role imo, whenever he has been given that opportunity, he's been near the best player on the ground.
Hate to say it but Ziebs is a problem. He has heart so he’ll fight his way back. The injury could be a blessing for him
 

WayneShimmiesTheBush

Senior List
Oct 17, 2018
216
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North Melbourne
I have had time to think about the game and I place this loss on the coaches. Why did it take them half way through the last quarter to actually play our brand of football? We are not a finesse team. When we are trying to be cute, we look like deer's in headlights and we always turn the ball over. We are a crash and bang club and play so much better when we play aggressive 1 on 1 footy and don't allow clubs to play with spare men everywhere. And don't me started on when we get the ball outside our defensive 50, and then kick it back 30 meters because we have a spare player. Hello, the opposition is begging you to do that and we fall for it every time.

I never understand why we worry about how the opposition play. How about we back ourselves in and play our style and let the opposition worry about our game plan. Our game plan is good enough to beat anyone. If our game plan isn't working then change it up. However, I would rather play proactive footy then reactive footy.

On a positive note, Curtis Taylor will be a star. I loved how he took ownership and responsibility for the shot at goal. He may of missed but the fact he took responsibility shows me this kid is the real deal and is not afraid to back himself in. This is the sort of thing that can separate a good player to a great player. And I have read a few comments regarding Xerri saying he is a ruckman not a forward. Well I disagree with this. I have seen enough in one game to suggest he can be a very good forward. The greatest advantage a forward can have, is to put himself in a position that allows him to have a higher % of a chance to win possession. If you watch Xerri, he actually bodies his opponent before the balls gets down there to give himself exactly that. He didn't clunk any marks but it is only a matter of time when he starts to do so. In fact Ben Brown should study how Xerri initiates contact. He needs to be more aggressive in the contest. If he can bring that part into his game, he will be an even harder opponent to match up on.

Finally, Maj, LDU, Cunners and Larkey, (who I believe are all in our best 22) will be big in's in the coming weeks. If you told me these guys were not playing, normally i would have given up on the game yesterday. However, i still expected up to win even without them. Our club has for the first time built up some serious depth. I just wish we didn't throw opportunities away like we did the last two games.
 

5 GB USB

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Jun 25, 2012
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Our biggest issue imo is that we have so many players on any giving week who just cant get into the game. Everyweek we have ao many players go missing or have a bad patch in games.
Atley
Ziebell
Anderson
Pittard
Zurhaar
Brown
Taylor
Thomas
Hall
Ahern

Now then we replace them with the same issue
Jmac
Bonor
Wood
 

ferball

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Jul 24, 2015
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I have had time to think about the game and I place this loss on the coaches. Why did it take them half way through the last quarter to actually play our brand of football? We are not a finesse team. When we are trying to be cute, we look like deer's in headlights and we always turn the ball over. We are a crash and bang club and play so much better when we play aggressive 1 on 1 footy and don't allow clubs to play with spare men everywhere. And don't me started on when we get the ball outside our defensive 50, and then kick it back 30 meters because we have a spare player. Hello, the opposition is begging you to do that and we fall for it every time.

I never understand why we worry about how the opposition play. How about we back ourselves in and play our style and let the opposition worry about our game plan. Our game plan is good enough to beat anyone. If our game plan isn't working then change it up. However, I would rather play proactive footy then reactive footy.

On a positive note, Curtis Taylor will be a star. I loved how he took ownership and responsibility for the shot at goal. He may of missed but the fact he took responsibility shows me this kid is the real deal and is not afraid to back himself in. This is the sort of thing that can separate a good player to a great player. And I have read a few comments regarding Xerri saying he is a ruckman not a forward. Well I disagree with this. I have seen enough in one game to suggest he can be a very good forward. The greatest advantage a forward can have, is to put himself in a position that allows him to have a higher % of a chance to win possession. If you watch Xerri, he actually bodies his opponent before the balls gets down there to give himself exactly that. He didn't clunk any marks but it is only a matter of time when he starts to do so. In fact Ben Brown should study how Xerri initiates contact. He needs to be more aggressive in the contest. If he can bring that part into his game, he will be an even harder opponent to match up on.

Finally, Maj, LDU, Cunners and Larkey, (who I believe are all in our best 22) will be big in's in the coming weeks. If you told me these guys were not playing, normally i would have given up on the game yesterday. However, i still expected up to win even without them. Our club has for the first time built up some serious depth. I just wish we didn't throw opportunities away like we did the last two games.
Just had this comment pop up after my last one.

Worth pointing out the coaching IMO.
 

The Y Factor

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Sep 28, 2005
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Well, I'm glad I waited to post until this morning after reading all that!! Brutal.

I was so frustrated last night I couldn't even read this crap. Frustrated because with a total of 5 mins in the first and 10 in the last, we could have won and had the commentary loving our youth and style of footy. Its clear that when we click, we can play and beat anyone. But to watch the other 3/4 was torcher, just waiting to click.

None the less, some silver linings;
  • We debuted 2 players last night and both looked very promising, Mahony in particular looked class and capable. Xerri looked liked he fitted in but the forwards got donuts last night.
  • We had youth on every line
  • Backline continued to shine under massive pressure (no midfield pressure/structure) despite some changes - saved us from a disaster
  • Goldy is having a blinder
  • Curtis continues to show he is capable of anything
  • We have Larkey, Cunners, Daw all to come in soonish - We don't have enough experience for Larks and Cunners to be out without a mess
  • jy and Jed continue to develop and work very hard but missed Cunners leadership
Our forwards had no chance with such average delivery but even so they looked disorganised. forward we had, Xerri, TT, Zurhaar, Curtis, Mahony - that's a very inexperience line-up so maybe I shouldnt be so surprised they were a little disorganised.

Ahern didn't add much again but Higgins, and Polec didnt exactly set the world alight either.

A missed opportunity but the Hawks are very experienced and will win against good teams when they play well. We had 8 players with about 150 games between them and 4 of them 0-5 games each.
 

Digby Morals

Draftee
Sep 3, 2018
15
81
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North Melbourne
To put things in perspective... we played 4 players with less than 6 games experience. It only takes a couple of players to be out of structure to place a heap of pressure on the remaining. We are going to have games like yesterday as a consequence but Shaw putting games into the young and deserving is a massive positive.

As for JZ, the man has sacrificed the better part of his health for this club and deserves more respect. If his best is behind him then so be it but he is seemingly undercooked at the moment. The culture he sets is immeasurable and his disciplined hardness is the epitome of the brand Shaw wants to play with. Does Jy crack in as hard now without the example set by JZ in his formative years?
 

Snake_Baker

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I have had time to think about the game and I place this loss on the coaches. Why did it take them half way through the last quarter to actually play our brand of football?
My hunch is because at this point they deemed there was "nothing left to lose", and it's that exact same mindset that put us in this predicament in the first place. Brad's reactive negativity still pervades the place.

FFS, we should be 2nd, but now we're ******* 9th!:mad:

1593388468401.png
 

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ferball

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I was gonna type this before I read anything but idly noticed the thread.

The last two weeks our losses have been due to coaching.

Not having Cunners contributed but it's possibly a good thing in terms of Shaw's development as a coach.

And it's not so much Shaw coached poorly, but Clarkson and Longmire, two of the most successful coaches of the last decade, coached very well against us.

They both took advantage of Shaw trying to set up a possession game to squeeze us. No Cunners and we have been trying to develop a game where we possess and control it.

And even then they only just won. And really only got on top on the back of Taz being off field. We didn't get the game back after he came back on.

Lots of other factors sure, but so much of the angst around this is misplaced.

Shaw will have to learn to be a great coach. He has potential but that is all. He's had two great coaches give him their full attention now, hopefully he's learned a lot from it.
 

Caracas

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We've done that at least twice under Shaw. Nearly three times.

More like the old days than we were under Brad.
In the last two minutes, I couldn’t help but remember back to that infamous Adelaide game eight years ago. How unlucky for Curis to hit the post. I have no doubt we would have prevailed if that had snuck in.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Val Keating

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Dec 27, 2017
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My hunch is because at this point they deemed there was "nothing left to lose", and it's that exact same mindset that put us in this predicament in the first place. Brad's reactive negativity still pervades the place.

FFS, we should be 2nd, but now we're ******* 9th!:mad:

View attachment 902371
Headed for another mid table finish if it doesn’t turn around quick
 

Val Keating

Norm Smith Medallist
Dec 27, 2017
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I was gonna type this before I read anything but idly noticed the thread.

The last two weeks our losses have been due to coaching.

Not having Cunners contributed but it's possibly a good thing in terms of Shaw's development as a coach.

And it's not so much Shaw coached poorly, but Clarkson and Longmire, two of the most successful coaches of the last decade, coached very well against us.

They both took advantage of Shaw trying to set up a possession game to squeeze us. No Cunners and we have been trying to develop a game where we possess and control it.

And even then they only just won. And really only got on top on the back of Taz being off field. We didn't get the game back after he came back on.

Lots of other factors sure, but so much of the angst around this is misplaced.

Shaw will have to learn to be a great coach. He has potential but that is all. He's had two great coaches give him their full attention now, hopefully he's learned a lot from it.
Clarko had the Hawks set up perfectly. He’s the master and his team is very structurally disciplined. Our blokes couldn’t break through their grid and when they did they couldn’t get clean forward entries.

We also need to work on keeping the ball locked in our half when we get it in there.
 

ferball

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you do realise he was triple teamed all night. You got no idea
This was one of the coaching flaws. We have 4 medium sized players on the forward line who should be able to take contested one on one marks plus another couple who can push forward and do it as well.

We should use Brown as a decoy till Larkey gets back, and just hit up the likes of Taylor, Thomad, Zurhaar and Ziebell until at least halfway thru the third. Well until they stop double and triple teaming Brown.

Surely their defence will centre on stopping Brown so make their tactics irrelevant to the game,.
 

LB2Snake

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Why the **** everytime Tazza or Walker take a mark, they slow it down, and go back and then go sideways 15m to an unmanned McDonald or Pittard or Marley ?

And then the recipient of the pass goes back and slows it down again ?

Meanwhile the Hawthorn defence are setting up and double teaming Brown and getting ready for when we eventually do go forward.

We didnt play on enough....We didnt take risks....We played into their hands....

It was sad to watch. It was frustrating to watch.
This drove me nuts too.....Walker has been great, but we miss Scooter's ability with the ball. He almost always took on the creative kick.
 

ferball

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Clarko had the Hawks set up perfectly. He’s the master and his team is very structurally disciplined. Our blokes couldn’t break through their grid and when they did they couldn’t get clean forward entries.

We also need to work on keeping the ball locked in our half when we get it in there.
Their grid only broke down for a little while in the last but that was enough to let us right back into the game. That is a big positive.

Thought we were okay locking the ball in but we struggled to stop them locking us in their half. They had their ball in their half for what seemed like three quarters of the game.

Also Clarko can get f’ed if he thinks the game is poor shape. He's been a dominant coach for nearly a decade and a half. He's made the game what it is today. Haven't seen his post match presser but saw the headline where he is attributed that quote.

He's working with Kennett.

The upshot of this is they'll talent is spread too thin and there are too many teams.
 

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