Training Pre season. Next up a VFL practice game v Williamstown at Arden St 10.30am Sat 17th Mar.

[Snake_Baker]

i dont need to, I know I’m right. Give me evidence that injury occurance is purely a ramdom event. Where is your data set to support your claim?

Bad luck is another term for unfortunate random chance.

In the absence of data, random chance is the scientific fallback position.

Could be load, it could be how we trained, or when we trained. It could be weights sessions or even the Arden St surface. It might be issues with our warm up, our cool down or our recovery. Or it could be technique issues, or it could be poor diagnosis of a complaint. Every case may be different but they’re not all “bad luck”.

Seven "could's" and three "mights"?

You actually agree with my position of random chance. You have nothing else.

You answered my question with yes! That makes no sense at all.

Yes. Despite best practice, injuries are still random events that inevitably occur in a contact sport.

I hope this makes it easier for you.

 

[sven_inc]

Despite best practice, injuries are still random events that inevitably occur in a contact sport.

No, the majority of them are not.

It's a cop out to say it's bad luck in a contact sport.

It would be rare to injure a Hamstring from contact. Andrew Swallows achilles didn't rupture thanks to contact. Nat Fyfes back didn't give out a few preseasons ago thanks to contact - he did it pushing off an opponent to lead up and mark in training.

It's just apologetics.

Long post coming...

For those who may be interested and are happy for me to explain id like to use Swallows Achilles as an example.

An Achilles is designed to function and be loaded normally. Clinically, any Achilles issue tends to be associated with a whole bunch of broader (asymptomatic) issues - of which ankle stiffness is at the top of the list.
The ankle probably won't hurt nor does it feel stiff day to day but there is a measurable decrease in joint mobility.

This ankle stiffness has a direct impact on the way the entire foot, arch, ankle and leg are loaded. If you watched someone with stiff ankles squat deep, you might see heels that want to lift, feet that turn out, knees that cave inwards, a tendency to want to fall backwards and most obvious to everyone - arches that are flat or flatten.

The leg has a tendency to do all this to get around a stiffness - albeit one hiding in plain sight.

Because of this, we tend to see a leg that collapses inwards whic changes the entire orientation that the achilles functions from. Prolonged poor loading will eventually end up dysfunctional with or without pain.

As stated in a long winded previous post, this in no way can predict an Achilles issue, but once sore or injured hindsight is 20/20. We can tell that this is important because in real time, we can free up a stiff ankle and see low level Achilles issues clear up immediately. We can tape an arch and see the same thing happen in nastier ones - although this (and orthotics) are forever just a symptomatic treatment and not a cure.

Once the ankle de-stiffens enough and other mechanical principles are practiced so that the Achilles is orientated normally, AN ACHILLES SHOULD NEVER GET SORE.

There's anecdotal evidence out there that you could potentially suspend a car from an Achilles, so when progressing this idea to include Swallows rupture, imagine how long that tendon had to be poorly loaded for it to completely sever.

Most including Roughead from Hawthorn rupture their Achilles running. It feels like someone's kicked them in the leg. No contact, no horrible fall or awkward tackle. It just happens doing the EXACT thing the Achilles was designed to do - run. Even using basic logic normal things shouldn't cause dysfunction in the body. Age doesn't count like we think it does, training factors don't as well - despite how much emphasis we place on them when trying to uncover causes. There's a whole deeper layer that sets things up to fail.

The body is brilliant in its design and it's robustness. It takes a lot to injure it. A ruptured Achilles is a great example of something that appears bad luck because he may have felt entirely fine beforehand and unless you have an understanding of specifically what his ankles did day to day before the injury you'll be none the wiser after.

But make no mistake, almost every issue has some controllable factors that set it up to fail when it does.

That time you coughed or sneezed and hurt your back wasn't the true problem. Your years of shitty postures and spinal habits left you vulnerable at that point.

That time you woke up with a crook neck wasn't because you slept funny, it was a direct response to some crappy, prolonged positions the day before.

That tennis elbow you randomly developed wasn't through "overuse", your completely asymptomatic stiff neck set it up To gradually fail.

Sure you popped your shoulder out landing awkwardly, but the poor shoulder function you unknowingly developed sitting crappily at your desk/on your couch for years prior robbed you of you inherent ability to buffer that nasty accident.

I want this to be very clear if only for old mate Snake, this is not opinion, I'm not sure if this even can be remotely classified as "data" but it is what it is.

Years of clinical experience and a focus only on results leads us down this path.

In summary, injuries can and will appear random for a whole host of reasons. There's nothing wrong with that. But the good news is that the majority of them can be prevented if the issues are picked up and resolved soon enough. This isn't just throwing strength at things, but mobility and lifestyles factors MUST be changed for good.

You would also assume that AFL medical teams already know this, but for some reason the industry isn't at a point yet where everyone knows everything about everything.

Sorry if this was too long and boring but I thought it might be intetesting for some.

If not I apologise!

 

[gokangas]

No, the majority of them are not.

It's a cop out to say it's bad luck in a contact sport.

It would be rare to injure a Hamstring from contact. Andrew Swallows achilles didn't rupture thanks to contact. Nat Fyfes back didn't give out a few preseasons ago thanks to contact - he did it pushing off an opponent to lead up and mark in training.

It's just apologetics.

Long post coming...

For those who may be interested and are happy for me to explain id like to use Swallows Achilles as an example.

An Achilles is designed to function and be loaded normally. Clinically, any Achilles issue tends to be associated with a whole bunch of broader (asymptomatic) issues - of which ankle stiffness is at the top of the list.
The ankle probably won't hurt nor does it feel stiff day to day but there is a measurable decrease in joint mobility.

This ankle stiffness has a direct impact on the way the entire foot, arch, ankle and leg are loaded. If you watched someone with stiff ankles squat deep, you might see heels that want to lift, feet that turn out, knees that cave inwards, a tendency to want to fall backwards and most obvious to everyone - arches that are flat or flatten.

The leg has a tendency to do all this to get around a stiffness - albeit one hiding in plain sight.

Because of this, we tend to see a leg that collapses inwards whic changes the entire orientation that the achilles functions from. Prolonged poor loading will eventually end up dysfunctional with or without pain.

As stated in a long winded previous post, this in no way can predict an Achilles issue, but once sore or injured hindsight is 20/20. We can tell that this is important because in real time, we can free up a stiff ankle and see low level Achilles issues clear up immediately. We can tape an arch and see the same thing happen in nastier ones - although this (and orthotics) are forever just a symptomatic treatment and not a cure.

Once the ankle de-stiffens enough and other mechanical principles are practiced so that the Achilles is orientated normally, AN ACHILLES SHOULD NEVER GET SORE.

There's anecdotal evidence out there that you could potentially suspend a car from an Achilles, so when progressing this idea to include Swallows rupture, imagine how long that tendon had to be poorly loaded for it to completely sever.

Most including Roughead from Hawthorn rupture their Achilles running. It feels like someone's kicked them in the leg. No contact, no horrible fall or awkward tackle. It just happens doing the EXACT thing the Achilles was designed to do - run. Even using basic logic normal things shouldn't cause dysfunction in the body. Age doesn't count like we think it does, training factors don't as well - despite how much emphasis we place on them when trying to uncover causes. There's a whole deeper layer that sets things up to fail.

The body is brilliant in its design and it's robustness. It takes a lot to injure it. A ruptured Achilles is a great example of something that appears bad luck because he may have felt entirely fine beforehand and unless you have an understanding of specifically what his ankles did day to day before the injury you'll be none the wiser after.

But make no mistake, almost every issue has some controllable factors that set it up to fail when it does.

That time you coughed or sneezed and hurt your back wasn't the true problem. Your years of shitty postures and spinal habits left you vulnerable at that point.

That time you woke up with a crook neck wasn't because you slept funny, it was a direct response to some crappy, prolonged positions the day before.

That tennis elbow you randomly developed wasn't through "overuse", your completely asymptomatic stiff neck set it up To gradually fail.

Sure you popped your shoulder out landing awkwardly, but the poor shoulder function you unknowingly developed sitting crappily at your desk/on your couch for years prior robbed you of you inherent ability to buffer that nasty accident.

I want this to be very clear if only for old mate Snake, this is not opinion, I'm not sure if this even can be remotely classified as "data" but it is what it is.

Years of clinical experience and a focus only on results leads us down this path.

In summary, injuries can and will appear random for a whole host of reasons. There's nothing wrong with that. But the good news is that the majority of them can be prevented if the issues are picked up and resolved soon enough. This isn't just throwing strength at things, but mobility and lifestyles factors MUST be changed for good.

You would also assume that AFL medical teams already know this, but for some reason the industry isn't at a point yet where everyone knows everything about everything.

Sorry if this was too long and boring but I thought it might be intetesting for some.

If not I apologise!

Read this. Now I have a headache. Explain that.

 

[sven_inc]

Read this. Now I have a headache. Explain that.

Just bad luck?

 

[Snake_Baker]

No, the majority of them are not.

It's a cop out to say it's bad luck in a contact sport.

It would be rare to injure a Hamstring from contact. Andrew Swallows achilles didn't rupture thanks to contact. Nat Fyfes back didn't give out a few preseasons ago thanks to contact - he did it pushing off an opponent to lead up and mark in training.

It's just apologetics.

Long post coming...

For those who may be interested and are happy for me to explain id like to use Swallows Achilles as an example.

An Achilles is designed to function and be loaded normally. Clinically, any Achilles issue tends to be associated with a whole bunch of broader (asymptomatic) issues - of which ankle stiffness is at the top of the list.
The ankle probably won't hurt nor does it feel stiff day to day but there is a measurable decrease in joint mobility.

This ankle stiffness has a direct impact on the way the entire foot, arch, ankle and leg are loaded. If you watched someone with stiff ankles squat deep, you might see heels that want to lift, feet that turn out, knees that cave inwards, a tendency to want to fall backwards and most obvious to everyone - arches that are flat or flatten.

The leg has a tendency to do all this to get around a stiffness - albeit one hiding in plain sight.

Because of this, we tend to see a leg that collapses inwards whic changes the entire orientation that the achilles functions from. Prolonged poor loading will eventually end up dysfunctional with or without pain.

As stated in a long winded previous post, this in no way can predict an Achilles issue, but once sore or injured hindsight is 20/20. We can tell that this is important because in real time, we can free up a stiff ankle and see low level Achilles issues clear up immediately. We can tape an arch and see the same thing happen in nastier ones - although this (and orthotics) are forever just a symptomatic treatment and not a cure.

Once the ankle de-stiffens enough and other mechanical principles are practiced so that the Achilles is orientated normally, AN ACHILLES SHOULD NEVER GET SORE.

There's anecdotal evidence out there that you could potentially suspend a car from an Achilles, so when progressing this idea to include Swallows rupture, imagine how long that tendon had to be poorly loaded for it to completely sever.

Most including Roughead from Hawthorn rupture their Achilles running. It feels like someone's kicked them in the leg. No contact, no horrible fall or awkward tackle. It just happens doing the EXACT thing the Achilles was designed to do - run. Even using basic logic normal things shouldn't cause dysfunction in the body. Age doesn't count like we think it does, training factors don't as well - despite how much emphasis we place on them when trying to uncover causes. There's a whole deeper layer that sets things up to fail.

The body is brilliant in its design and it's robustness. It takes a lot to injure it. A ruptured Achilles is a great example of something that appears bad luck because he may have felt entirely fine beforehand and unless you have an understanding of specifically what his ankles did day to day before the injury you'll be none the wiser after.

But make no mistake, almost every issue has some controllable factors that set it up to fail when it does.

That time you coughed or sneezed and hurt your back wasn't the true problem. Your years of shitty postures and spinal habits left you vulnerable at that point.

That time you woke up with a crook neck wasn't because you slept funny, it was a direct response to some crappy, prolonged positions the day before.

That tennis elbow you randomly developed wasn't through "overuse", your completely asymptomatic stiff neck set it up To gradually fail.

Sure you popped your shoulder out landing awkwardly, but the poor shoulder function you unknowingly developed sitting crappily at your desk/on your couch for years prior robbed you of you inherent ability to buffer that nasty accident.

I want this to be very clear if only for old mate Snake, this is not opinion, I'm not sure if this even can be remotely classified as "data" but it is what it is.

Years of clinical experience and a focus only on results leads us down this path.

In summary, injuries can and will appear random for a whole host of reasons. There's nothing wrong with that. But the good news is that the majority of them can be prevented if the issues are picked up and resolved soon enough. This isn't just throwing strength at things, but mobility and lifestyles factors MUST be changed for good.

You would also assume that AFL medical teams already know this, but for some reason the industry isn't at a point yet where everyone knows everything about everything.

Sorry if this was too long and boring but I thought it might be intetesting for some.

If not I apologise!

Move along shitlips.

 

[remfan101]

In the absence of data, random chance is the scientific fallback position.

No, it really isn't. Stop with the pseudo-scientific waffle to justify to the world what are clearly just your personal opinions.

 

[Snake_Baker]

No, it really isn't. Stop with the pseudo-scientific waffle to justify to the world what are clearly just your personal opinions.

There's nothing "psuedo" about it.

Do you have anything solid to put on the table?

A few "coulds" or "mights"?

 

[LuvtheKangas]

Pardon my intrusion. I mean this with the utmost respect and don't mean to get in the way of this robust discussion but I just wanted to make it clear that almost 100% of injuries are NOT bad luck in day to day life and most likely the AFL.

The problem with any injury is that it always seems random unless you can take a big enough step back to consider what set it up to fail when it did.

ACLs are a prime example where the knee fails often in a very simple situation but we blame bad luck instead of years of likely poor leg mechanics prior - often because things don't hurt or fail until they do.

It's important to note that accidents definitely can and do happen where someone call fall from high enough or get hit hard enough to damage tissue, but the reality is these moments are often left to the truly horrific moments and still thankfully rare in the AFL.

A silly as this may sound even something as obvious as a knee breaking some ribs can potentially be prevented to a point depending on how supple the area is going into the incident. Stiffer ribs = more likely to break than bend when challenged.

It's a hard idea to support unless you delve into specific examples but there's this culture amongst the medical fraternity where the "bad luck" card if used far, far, far too easily. GWS did it last year with their horrid injury issues, Carlton used it with Dochertys ACL, Adelaide used it earlier this year when they copped a heap of hammies, GC trotted out the same line a few years back when Jaegers career was turned upsidedown.

I know being a random opposition supporter whose throwing his 2c into an already heated discussion probably carries no weight but as someone in the sports medicine industry the industry itself hasn't evolved beyond a very narrow focus.

Until they/we broaden our horizons Hammies will still keep getting injured, knees will still give way, shoulders will still pop, ankles will still roll and achilles will still rupture all potentially unnecessarily.

Happy to elaborate if this post isn't too annoying.

I've had a chance to catch up on your posts now and you're obviously knowledgeable and experienced in the area. I'm not, so wouldn't even presume to argue with you in relation to the information that you have provided.

I will say, however, that most of what you've posted is beside the point in the context of the running argument. A handful of posters here are blaming medical staff for the high number of injuries that we have suffered in the past two seasons. They have no basis for their view and it's just one whine after another. Some will take your posts as supporting their view, which is why I'm responding.

I categorically disagree with your claim that it's NOT bad luck. In most cases, the nature, timing and circumstances of an AFL injury is very much bad luck and not the alternative posited: medical mismanagement. All AFL players are at risk of injury simply by playing the game. I accept that other factors contribute - which you have covered well, notwithstanding even you admit these are identified in hindsight - but the single most important factor causing player injuries is playing or training for football and in so doing, pushing the body to an extreme level. (I'm including non-collision injuries as they are still from what players do to their body in playing or training).

The basis of your posts is that injuries are predictable and are at least partially due to existing factors that could have been addressed. Sure, no argument with that, but it's a statistical prediction that relates to a population of 800 odd players. So yes, statistically, some players will get injured, probably around 10-20% of the population (it may be more or less, I'm not placing any importance on the actual number). When the injuries happen, you are then able to identify factors that made the injury more or less likely, no argument there, either. But "when" is the key here.

Individually, it's bad luck if you're one of those players that gets injured. Even if you have some contributing factors, the actual injury is from bad luck, because most of the other 800 players on an AFL list have the same contributing factors and didn't get injured simply because they were not in that part of that play, or didn't push off at training, etc.

Sure mate, you sound like you're going to be fun to talk to...

Give me the details of an injury from the list above or one suffered by a Roos player last season and I'll tell you whether it's likely to be actual bad luck or whether there's literally something you can do to protect against it.

I'll give you "plausible" answers and not "opinion" as you so warmly put it - based on what's found clinically.

(Sorry if this is derailing the thread)

See, "give me the details of an injury (and I'll explain it)" is a straight application of hindsight. Again, I don't question for a moment that you can analyse the factors that are relevant to an injury, but I repeat that the main factor causing player injuries is playing or training for football and pushing the body to an extreme level.

I don't agree with your dichotomising of bad luck and prevention methods, i.e. "actual bad luck or whether there's literally something you can do to protect against it." You point out what might have been done to prevent Andrew Swallow's achilles. It's an interesting analysis, but it implies that an achilles injury was Andrew's biggest risk and he should have been subject to better management of that potential injury. The argument then becomes exponential if you are trying to say all injuries are preventable.

For example, perhaps Shaun Higgins was aware of all the information you have provided about an achilles injury, and took all of the preventative measures that you imply are available. Unfortunately, Shaun is s**t out of luck when some St Kilda dud falls across his knee as he kicks a brilliant goal under severe physical pressure. Mason Wood was also subject to someone falling across his knee, but hey, he probably had his achilles prevention routines down pat.

Another example, you talk of having more supple ribs as a technique for mitigating the outcome of a knee in the ribs. I pity the poor player with supple ribs who drops his head in a split second and has his cheekbone smashed by the knee. I'm sure you'd be reticent to tell that player that calling this bad luck is a cop-out.

If that is the way you want to look at this scenario mate then you will forever be woefully unsatisfied. The way the industry is at the moment it is highly unlikely that any data will ever exist on this particular topic - particularly if you are resistant to discussing things with "pick and choose reductionism".

If I was to say to you that a Hamstring will be set up to fail by the presence of X, Y, or Z, there is no guarantee that if you have X, Y, or X that you will ever get injured. It can never be a predictive model. We can only ever talk in likelihoods due an infinite number of variables attached to being a modern day human being. But, if you do injure a Hammy its almost guaranteed that X, Y, or Z will be there in hindsight - if you go looking for it. So clinically its important that although nothing is guaranteed, its still really important to make sure that X, Y, or Z aren't present to the best of the patients ability. Because of that, the "data" you so staunchly need to budge in this discussion may be hard to find. But the fact that X, Y, or Z are present in each individual injury case, its apparent that bad luck is NOT the underlying cause in any, if not all injuries - whether you feel open minded enough to appreciate that or not.

I'm sure I don't have to harp on the idea that every injury has different things that set it up to occur. The overarching things that do apply to everyone like training load, intensity, age, etc aren't relevant in these discussions because they can only realistically expose an issue NOT create one on their own. So by default you can have a discussion about the entire breadth of your injury list but you can't make it meaningful until you discuss the individual cases within.

For the record I only used the word "plausible" because thats what you asked for originally.

Im more than happy to back my position with clinical "data" because I see it every day. My expertise is in finding solutions to patients problems and bad luck is not a concession we generally have to make.

If you are happy for me to elaborate then great, if not best of luck to you. If anyone else would like me to elaborate im more than happy to as I don't want to clog up another teams board unless others are happy.

Again, the single most important factor of X, Y and Z is playing or training for football and in so doing, pushing the body to an extreme level.

And again, you disclose your reliance on hindsight. I think it's contradictory to strongly push the line that it's not bad luck, then concede the myriad different ways in which injuries can occur and the factors that are related.

Indeed, I think most of what you have said supports the idea that individual injuries, whilst in hindsight preventable in some (many?) cases, are bad luck when they happen

No, the majority of them are not.

It's a cop out to say it's bad luck in a contact sport.

It would be rare to injure a Hamstring from contact. Andrew Swallows achilles didn't rupture thanks to contact. Nat Fyfes back didn't give out a few preseasons ago thanks to contact - he did it pushing off an opponent to lead up and mark in training.

It's just apologetics.

Long post coming...

For those who may be interested and are happy for me to explain id like to use Swallows Achilles as an example.

An Achilles is designed to function and be loaded normally. Clinically, any Achilles issue tends to be associated with a whole bunch of broader (asymptomatic) issues - of which ankle stiffness is at the top of the list.
The ankle probably won't hurt nor does it feel stiff day to day but there is a measurable decrease in joint mobility.

This ankle stiffness has a direct impact on the way the entire foot, arch, ankle and leg are loaded. If you watched someone with stiff ankles squat deep, you might see heels that want to lift, feet that turn out, knees that cave inwards, a tendency to want to fall backwards and most obvious to everyone - arches that are flat or flatten.

The leg has a tendency to do all this to get around a stiffness - albeit one hiding in plain sight.

Because of this, we tend to see a leg that collapses inwards whic changes the entire orientation that the achilles functions from. Prolonged poor loading will eventually end up dysfunctional with or without pain.

As stated in a long winded previous post, this in no way can predict an Achilles issue, but once sore or injured hindsight is 20/20. We can tell that this is important because in real time, we can free up a stiff ankle and see low level Achilles issues clear up immediately. We can tape an arch and see the same thing happen in nastier ones - although this (and orthotics) are forever just a symptomatic treatment and not a cure.

Once the ankle de-stiffens enough and other mechanical principles are practiced so that the Achilles is orientated normally, AN ACHILLES SHOULD NEVER GET SORE.

There's anecdotal evidence out there that you could potentially suspend a car from an Achilles, so when progressing this idea to include Swallows rupture, imagine how long that tendon had to be poorly loaded for it to completely sever.

Most including Roughead from Hawthorn rupture their Achilles running. It feels like someone's kicked them in the leg. No contact, no horrible fall or awkward tackle. It just happens doing the EXACT thing the Achilles was designed to do - run. Even using basic logic normal things shouldn't cause dysfunction in the body. Age doesn't count like we think it does, training factors don't as well - despite how much emphasis we place on them when trying to uncover causes. There's a whole deeper layer that sets things up to fail.

The body is brilliant in its design and it's robustness. It takes a lot to injure it. A ruptured Achilles is a great example of something that appears bad luck because he may have felt entirely fine beforehand and unless you have an understanding of specifically what his ankles did day to day before the injury you'll be none the wiser after.

But make no mistake, almost every issue has some controllable factors that set it up to fail when it does.

That time you coughed or sneezed and hurt your back wasn't the true problem. Your years of shitty postures and spinal habits left you vulnerable at that point.

That time you woke up with a crook neck wasn't because you slept funny, it was a direct response to some crappy, prolonged positions the day before.

That tennis elbow you randomly developed wasn't through "overuse", your completely asymptomatic stiff neck set it up To gradually fail.

Sure you popped your shoulder out landing awkwardly, but the poor shoulder function you unknowingly developed sitting crappily at your desk/on your couch for years prior robbed you of you inherent ability to buffer that nasty accident.

I want this to be very clear if only for old mate Snake, this is not opinion, I'm not sure if this even can be remotely classified as "data" but it is what it is.

Years of clinical experience and a focus only on results leads us down this path.

In summary, injuries can and will appear random for a whole host of reasons. There's nothing wrong with that. But the good news is that the majority of them can be prevented if the issues are picked up and resolved soon enough. This isn't just throwing strength at things, but mobility and lifestyles factors MUST be changed for good.

You would also assume that AFL medical teams already know this, but for some reason the industry isn't at a point yet where everyone knows everything about everything.

Sorry if this was too long and boring but I thought it might be intetesting for some.

If not I apologise!

All good stuff. But if Andrew managed the achilles better, who's to say that he wouldn't have broken an arm, leg, fingers, jaw, done an ACL or PCL, had a back injury like Marley Williams or Nat Fyfe? Was the prevention of Nat's injury not pushing off his opponent? Or was it bad luck in that he twisted awkwardly in exercising this training drill? Should Sam Docherty have skipped training that day to avoid the ACL? Perhaps he had devoted a disproportionate amount of his injury prevention time avoiding a Swallow-like achilles injury or a Fyfe-like back injury?

Yes, the last bit was a little facetious, but I use it to illustrate my last point: we all want and value injury prevention techniques, but there is a limit to what can be done (hours in the day for a start, plus the fact that these guys also have to practice and play football in addition to doing injury prevention). If there was a technique for preventing the majority of injuries, then surely we wouldn't be seeing as many. It's an evolving science, no doubt, but until we get to American Football style padding, some collisions in AFL games will result in injury. That's a statistically certain outcome, but that doesn't mean the injured player didn't suffer bad luck.

I am comfortable in concluding that the majority of individual injuries, when they happen, are bad luck. I think it's almost offensive (to the injured players) to call that a cop out.

 

[Snake_Baker]

A handful of posters here are blaming medical staff for the high number of injuries that we have suffered in the past two seasons. They have no basis for their view and it's just one whine after another. Some will take your posts as supporting their view, which is why I'm responding.

I am at a loss to explain their persistence with nothing.

Say, are any of these folks card carrying members of the "sack the entire football department" posse?

If so, then their carry on would make perfect sense. They would blame the lack of a club exorcist as a reason to get rid of the coach.

 

[Groin guru]

 

[Snake_Baker]

Hey, he's back!

Finally, an authority on the subject!

 

[Jasemon]

Move along shitlips.

You just made this board infinitely dumber with that comment SB.

If you can push your own ego aside for one moment you might be able to take a few valid insights out of Sven's insights.

I have a feeling you didn't bother to read the above post, most probably never got past hello.

 

[Groin guru]

Hey, he's back!

Finally, an authority on the subject!

Sorry i got a nosebleed reading the last few pages. I'm in agreeance with you and LtK.

I can't be bothered going into detail because it is so preposterous and any attempt with fall on deaf ears.

I can't remember who summoned me a few pages back but the field needs work
So much is still unknown. Physios, ex physiologists, and exercise scientists need to be pushed into research (masters/PhDs) so more of the unknown can be uncovered

 

[Snake_Baker]

You just made this board infinitely dumber with that comment SB.

If you can push your own ego aside for one moment you might be able to take a few valid insights out of Sven's insights.

I have a feeling you didn't bother to read the above post, most probably never got past hello.

The poster in question was directing posts at me that were a waste of my time. I will respond to a time-waster as I see fit.

Feel free to read and respond if you wish to pursue a discussion. It's no skin off my nose.

 

[Reginald0]

Hard to know wot anyone means by ' bad luck' in this context
Look at Harvey
Look at Garner

Harvey just never got injured I mean never
Garner,
Now the questions start
Was he 'structurally weak'
If so was he not trained up properly?
Moving on, once he got his 1st hammy or whatever What happened then? Shld the club have known this was an impending disaster?

We can only discuss the medical treatment case by case as for instance W8 injury issues with us and blues doesn't seem to have helped changing clubs

 

[sven_inc]

I can see why things have gone round in circles in this thread... I'll take my leave before I outstay my welcome.

If anyone is interested in continuing the tangent I seem to have taken things down please feel free to PM me.

Best of luck next year

 

[The chorus]

Hard to know wot anyone means by ' bad luck' in this context


We can only discuss the medical treatment case by case as for instance W8 injury issues with us and blues doesn't seem to have helped changing clubs

I don't understand how posters can "discuss the medical treatment case by case" unless they know the details of that treatment and I suspect that most of the posters on here don't know those details but are engaging in idle speculation. I don't go to training; I don't get to read details of either the treatment provided to injured players or the measures taken to prevent injuries; therefore I don't pontificate on bigfooty about the appropriateness of any of that. Am I doing it wrong?

 

[Roozee]

 

[Strummaster]

I can only echo the moron call if you're using these lists to support your spurious claim. Richmond had exceptional good luck to have a list that short, and we had exceptional bad luck. Richmond rode their incredible luck all the way.

It's a contact sport and people get injured playing it. Look at the list, they are all injuries sustained on the football field.

If you spent time watching games instead of pointing the finger because you're disappointed with results, you would have even seen some of these injuries when they happened.

How about you name just one of the 19 and tell us how the injury was the fault of the medical team and not as a result of playing footy? Just one - it should be simple if your argument has even a speck of validity.

In addition to this our year was over and 4 weeks became a season injury at this point and we need to ask the elephant in the room if website lists are real data as the press always get the injury details from the clubs. ie medical term niggle

 

[Strummaster]

I've had a chance to catch up on your posts now and you're obviously knowledgeable and experienced in the area. I'm not, so wouldn't even presume to argue with you in relation to the information that you have provided.

I will say, however, that most of what you've posted is beside the point in the context of the running argument. A handful of posters here are blaming medical staff for the high number of injuries that we have suffered in the past two seasons. They have no basis for their view and it's just one whine after another. Some will take your posts as supporting their view, which is why I'm responding.

I categorically disagree with your claim that it's NOT bad luck. In most cases, the nature, timing and circumstances of an AFL injury is very much bad luck and not the alternative posited: medical mismanagement. All AFL players are at risk of injury simply by playing the game. I accept that other factors contribute - which you have covered well, notwithstanding even you admit these are identified in hindsight - but the single most important factor causing player injuries is playing or training for football and in so doing, pushing the body to an extreme level. (I'm including non-collision injuries as they are still from what players do to their body in playing or training).

The basis of your posts is that injuries are predictable and are at least partially due to existing factors that could have been addressed. Sure, no argument with that, but it's a statistical prediction that relates to a population of 800 odd players. So yes, statistically, some players will get injured, probably around 10-20% of the population (it may be more or less, I'm not placing any importance on the actual number). When the injuries happen, you are then able to identify factors that made the injury more or less likely, no argument there, either. But "when" is the key here.

Individually, it's bad luck if you're one of those players that gets injured. Even if you have some contributing factors, the actual injury is from bad luck, because most of the other 800 players on an AFL list have the same contributing factors and didn't get injured simply because they were not in that part of that play, or didn't push off at training, etc.



See, "give me the details of an injury (and I'll explain it)" is a straight application of hindsight. Again, I don't question for a moment that you can analyse the factors that are relevant to an injury, but I repeat that the main factor causing player injuries is playing or training for football and pushing the body to an extreme level.

I don't agree with your dichotomising of bad luck and prevention methods, i.e. "actual bad luck or whether there's literally something you can do to protect against it." You point out what might have been done to prevent Andrew Swallow's achilles. It's an interesting analysis, but it implies that an achilles injury was Andrew's biggest risk and he should have been subject to better management of that potential injury. The argument then becomes exponential if you are trying to say all injuries are preventable.

For example, perhaps Shaun Higgins was aware of all the information you have provided about an achilles injury, and took all of the preventative measures that you imply are available. Unfortunately, Shaun is s**t out of luck when some St Kilda dud falls across his knee as he kicks a brilliant goal under severe physical pressure. Mason Wood was also subject to someone falling across his knee, but hey, he probably had his achilles prevention routines down pat.

Another example, you talk of having more supple ribs as a technique for mitigating the outcome of a knee in the ribs. I pity the poor player with supple ribs who drops his head in a split second and has his cheekbone smashed by the knee. I'm sure you'd be reticent to tell that player that calling this bad luck is a cop-out.



Again, the single most important factor of X, Y and Z is playing or training for football and in so doing, pushing the body to an extreme level.

And again, you disclose your reliance on hindsight. I think it's contradictory to strongly push the line that it's not bad luck, then concede the myriad different ways in which injuries can occur and the factors that are related.

Indeed, I think most of what you have said supports the idea that individual injuries, whilst in hindsight preventable in some (many?) cases, are bad luck when they happen



All good stuff. But if Andrew managed the achilles better, who's to say that he wouldn't have broken an arm, leg, fingers, jaw, done an ACL or PCL, had a back injury like Marley Williams or Nat Fyfe? Was the prevention of Nat's injury not pushing off his opponent? Or was it bad luck in that he twisted awkwardly in exercising this training drill? Should Sam Docherty have skipped training that day to avoid the ACL? Perhaps he had devoted a disproportionate amount of his injury prevention time avoiding a Swallow-like achilles injury or a Fyfe-like back injury?

Yes, the last bit was a little facetious, but I use it to illustrate my last point: we all want and value injury prevention techniques, but there is a limit to what can be done (hours in the day for a start, plus the fact that these guys also have to practice and play football in addition to doing injury prevention). If there was a technique for preventing the majority of injuries, then surely we wouldn't be seeing as many. It's an evolving science, no doubt, but until we get to American Football style padding, some collisions in AFL games will result in injury. That's a statistically certain outcome, but that doesn't mean the injured player didn't suffer bad luck.

I am comfortable in concluding that the majority of individual injuries, when they happen, are bad luck. I think it's almost offensive (to the injured players) to call that a cop out.

This is the best post i've ever seen on this site ive dislocated my rib not from bad luck but from an hour of chuckling then a full blown fit of laughter not at anyone just the fact we go on with such crap when there is no footy

 

[LuvtheKangas]

This is the best post i've ever seen on this site ive dislocated my rib not from bad luck but from an hour of chuckling then a full blown fit of laughter not at anyone just the fact we go on with such crap when there is no footy

I maintain that your rib injury is purely bad luck!

 

[Strummaster]

In addition to this our year was over and 4 weeks became a season injury at this point and we need to ask the elephant in the room if website lists are real data as the press always get the injury details from the clubs. ie medical term niggle

I maintain that your rib injury is purely bad luck!

If I had implemented the balance training and core alignment work Richmond started down 3 years ago I would have survived the rofl.

if you want to test me look up "search for hurt" but that is only one possibility

 

[Strummaster]

If I had implemented the balance training and core alignment work Richmond started down 3 years ago I would have survived the rofl.

if you want to test me look up "search for hurt" but that is only one possibility

 

[Snake_Baker]

I maintain that your rib injury is purely bad luck!

Sack Brad Scott!

 

[Mav]

Bad luck is another term for unfortunate random chance.

In the absence of data, random chance is the scientific fallback position.



Seven "could's" and three "mights"?

You actually agree with my position of random chance. You have nothing else.



Yes. Despite best practice, injuries are still random events that inevitably occur in a contact sport.

I hope this makes it easier for you.

Way to miss the point! I don’t agree with you at all. The list of could be's and mights show the variables that affect injury occurrence. They highlight that fact that not every injury is simply bad luck. Do you think it's possible to lower the chance of injury?