Training Pre-season Training 2017

[SpaceClef]

In all seriousness, the amount of cooked shoulders over the last few years at WCE is scary. I just hope McGoverns holds up after surgery last year

Also the amount of foot injuries

 

[KamakazeSalami]

Such bad news re: Lycett. I reckon his tackling ability will suffer, which was one of his strengths

I have this terrible feeling we're not ever going to see the best of him. Seems to be injury prone and has probably only had one year where he has had a clear run at it. Think we can safely draw a line through our first rucks for 2017.

Not sure how many goats/first born children Vozzo sacrificed and to which deity, but FMD thank his chosen one for giving him the tip on what a mess our ruck stocks were going to be this year. Vardy and Petrie. Genius.

 

[former lurker]

Fair point on the defensive mids structure. Still, three talls (two of who are nowhere near the level of Gov in kicking ability) will slow us down you'd think. And speed isn't just about offensive set up but vital in defensive transition as well, particularly against the smaller, quicker, superior ball moving teams. I guess we'll see.

Gov would be one of, if not the best kpd kicks in the league. Can hardly expect everyone to be at his level. We will more than likely play 3 talls in defence against most sides even if one is for rotation purposes. One injury to a kpd and we would be seriously compromised playing just two talls.

 

[Dark Sharks]

how would you like it if i went around saying marsden and saying that every player looks like dustin martin? Bulking up is the only positive contribution i bring to bigfooty.

I would love it, the more awareness the better.

Thinking about starting a GoFundMe page so i can visit Dustin's Dad and bring him home.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

Gov would be one of, if not the best kpd kicks in the league. Can hardly expect everyone to be at his level. We will more than likely play 3 talls in defence against most sides even if one is for rotation purposes. One injury to a kpd and we would be seriously compromised playing just two talls.

I absolutely do not expect most players to be at Gov's level at kicking. He is elite. I was responding to a post that stated Gov and Barrass's kicking would balance out the perceived slowness/immobility of the backline if there were three KPDs. I agreed with Gov's kicking but TB and EMac are nowhere near his level, and that is fine, but it does mean we're prone to move the ball conservatively and slowly out of defense when it is in their hands (Mind you, I'd rather that, than them trying to pull off kicks they aren't going to make 70-80% of the time).

I guess I'm of the view that we have enough mid-sized players (Shep, Yeo, even Wellers) who can play taller and can cover going in with 2 KPDs, with one very important caveat, that we continue to play in our defensive zone structure. We get found out when those players are isolated ono-on-one and get into a push and shove. We will lose that battle every time. It's imperitive our mids play their role in defending and slowing opp ball movement (did it very well against Melbourne in JLT 3 after the first 10 mins of the game). But that I guess is the interesting aspect about all of this. Do we take in a 3rd tall to cover for possible injuries (I think it is way too conservative a strategy and robs us of flexibility, mobility) and/or to have an each way bet just in case the team isn't playing good team defense (again, if this is the thinking then we're not showing much confidence in their ability to execute a defensive game plan)?

 

[Chris_6678]

Apparently Neale from Freo had the same unjury & operation as Lycett over the pre-season so it will be interesting to see how he goes durign the year.

 

[SloppyJoe]

Allen, Waterman and Rioli haven't even played an AFL game so I'm not too worried about their injuries; we haven't lost anything that directly impacts our season.

Nic Nat and Tunners are old news. Tunners' recovery progress is actually pretty encouraging.

Lycett is the only real issue. If you told me a month ago he would miss the first half of the season I would have told you we were ****ed. But, having seen how Vardy and Petrie have attacked the pre-season, with Giles apparently now healthy/wrapped in cotton wool, I'm not having that reaction.

We have been spoilt in the ruck for over 15 years now - no other side have had 3 premier ruckmen in a row like us in Gardiner/Cox/Nic Nat. It's about time we learned to become a side that can find success with a journeyman ruck.

 

[former lurker]

I absolutely do not expect most players to be at Gov's level at kicking. He is elite. I was responding to a post that stated Gov and Barrass's kicking would balance out the perceived slowness/immobility of the backline if there were three KPDs. I agreed with Gov's kicking but TB and EMac are nowhere near his level, and that is fine, but it does mean we're prone to move the ball conservatively and slowly out of defense when it is in their hands (Mind you, I'd rather that, than them trying to pull off kicks they aren't going to make 70-80% of the time).

I guess I'm of the view that we have enough mid-sized players (Shep, Yeo, even Wellers) who can play taller and can cover going in with 2 KPDs, with one very important caveat, that we continue to play in our defensive zone structure. We get found out when those players are isolated ono-on-one and get into a push and shove. We will lose that battle every time. It's imperitive our mids play their role in defending and slowing opp ball movement (did it very well against Melbourne in JLT 3 after the first 10 mins of the game). But that I guess is the interesting aspect about all of this. Do we take in a 3rd tall to cover for possible injuries (I think it is way too conservative a strategy and robs us of flexibility, mobility) and/or to have an each way bet just in case the team isn't playing good team defense (again, if this is the thinking then we're not showing much confidence in their ability to execute a defensive game plan)?

Hear what you are saying, but I think Schofield offers something a bit different . Really see it as Schofield and Gov with the third pick between Emac and TB. If we decide to go only 2 talls, Schofield is the obvious out.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

Hear what you are saying, but I think Schofield offers something a bit different . Really see it as Schofield and Gov with the third pick between Emac and TB. If we decide to go only 2 talls, Schofield is the obvious out.

Yeah, I see it that way too. If it has to be three talls in the backline it hs to be Gov, Shofield and one of EMac/TB. It is such a shame Schofield injured his ankle in JLT1. Would've loved to have seen how that dynamic worked in JLT2 and 3.

 

[avishka5]

Disagree about schoey. Guy is as complacent as guys like hill and masto. Sure we talk about his rebound but he hasn't really given us consistent rebound since 2013. He is essentially playing just as a pure kpd these days and has to come in contention with emac and tb as Gov is playing like a flanker these days. Emac and tb on paper have him covered but the fact that emac isn't used to our game plan and is shaky disposal is why he will probably play as the second tall.

Only of schoey could find the footy as much as emac. Emac seem to be getting the footy a lot in the last few years.

 

[former lurker]

Disagree about schoey. Guy is as complacent as guys like hill and masto. Sure we talk about his rebound but he hasn't really given us consistent rebound since 2013. He is essentially playing just as a pure kpd these days and has to come in contention with emac and tb as Gov is playing like a flanker these days. Emac and tb on paper have him covered but the fact that emac isn't used to our game plan and is shaky disposal is why he will probably play as the second tall.

Only of schoey could find the footy as much as emac. Emac seem to be getting the footy a lot in the last few years.

Huh ?

 

[former lurker]

Schofield was required to bulk up when Emac went down, and he played the role more than admirably . I always wanted to see him play on the wing. Had the ability, takes the game on and is very quick. Unfortunately that role may be past him now ?

 

[former lurker]

As for Gov, he has pretty much always played as a loose man or at least not a tight checking defender.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

Disagree about schoey. Guy is as complacent as guys like hill and masto. Sure we talk about his rebound but he hasn't really given us consistent rebound since 2013. He is essentially playing just as a pure kpd these days and has to come in contention with emac and tb as Gov is playing like a flanker these days. Emac and tb on paper have him covered but the fact that emac isn't used to our game plan and is shaky disposal is why he will probably play as the second tall.

Only of schoey could find the footy as much as emac. Emac seem to be getting the footy a lot in the last few years.

How many 20+ possesion players do you want in a side mate? Its not all about how many disposals you have against your name. For me, if our defenders aren't racking up shitloads of possies, it means its a good thing! Schofield is never going to be considered A Grade. He isn't great above the shoulders (and I don't mean his mental side of things). He isn't good when the ball is above shoulder height. He doesn't have Gov, TB or Emac's ball reading capability. He gets caught wrong side of the ball too often. He isn't the strongest either so he will struggle one-on-one. What he does have is a bit of run and mobility. Plenty of times I've seen him run and spread to create space and leave his opponent behind, But tbf to him we haven't used him for that purpose. We look to get the ball to Gov and Hurn in our backline (and now to Mitchell) and why wouldn't we? Elite ball users who can cut up defensive zones by foot. You can't have it both ways. We get shitty when players try to play outside of their ability and do stuff we think they can't and turnover the ball, but we can't also be shitty if they play within themselves and play a role, quite often not backed by any stats. Additionally, if the opposition is blocking space upfield and denying those dangerous kicks then naturally you have more players, particularly mids, that come into the back half to help with handballing and running the ball out. Again, do you want him running it out or would you prefer Gaff, Shuey, Sheed, Hutch, Yeo, Jetta, Wellers etc doing that?

He is mobile. He is quick enough to cover space down back and that is pretty important in your defensive setup because it prevents offensive movement. You don't get a stat for it but FMD you know it hasn't happened when you see it. He isn't bad at being the third man. He can provide an outlet option and he can certainly go for a gallop if given the opportunity but that isn't his primary role. We're too obsessed with disposals. Playing a role effectively doesn't always equate to higher disposals.

 

[former lurker]

How many 20+ possesion players do you want in a side mate? Its not all about how many disposals you have against your name. For me, if our defenders aren't racking up shitloads of possies, it means its a good thing! Schofield is never going to be considered A Grade. He isn't great above the shoulders (and I don't mean his mental side of things). He isn't good when the ball is above shoulder height. He doesn't have Gov, TB or Emac's ball reading capability. He gets caught wrong side of the ball too often. He isn't the strongest either so he will struggle one-on-one. What he does have is a bit of run and mobility. Plenty of times I've seen him run and spread to create space and leave his opponent behind, But tbf to him we haven't used him for that purpose. We look to get the ball to Gov and Hurn in our backline (and now to Mitchell) and why wouldn't we? Elite ball users who can cut up defensive zones by foot. You can't have it both ways. We get shitty when players try to play outside of their ability and do stuff we think they can't and turnover the ball, but we can't also be shitty if they play within themselves and play a role, quite often not backed by any stats. Additionally, if the opposition is blocking space upfield and denying those dangerous kicks then naturally you have more players, particularly mids, that come into the back half to help with handballing and running the ball out. Again, do you want him running it out or would you prefer Gaff, Shuey, Sheed, Hutch, Yeo, Jetta, Wellers etc doing that?

He is mobile. He is quick enough to cover space down back and that is pretty important in your defensive setup because it prevents offensive movement. You don't get a stat for it but FMD you know it hasn't happened when you see it. He isn't bad at being the third man. He can provide an outlet option and he can certainly go for a gallop if given the opportunity but that isn't his primary role. We're too obsessed with disposals. Playing a role effectively doesn't always equate to higher disposals.

Agree mostly with this, but the bolded part I'm not so sure. Again, he is not in Gov's class ( who is ) but I have seen him take some ripper grabs and he doesn't normally drop what he should take.

 

[Shmiddy15]

There aren't too many sides that go in with 3 giants up forward. Two KPD should be more than enough, and for mine Gov and Barrass are the obvious choices. Guys like Shep, Yeo and Hurn are more than capable of playing on a 3rd tall.

 

[avishka5]

How many 20+ possesion players do you want in a side mate? Its not all about how many disposals you have against your name. For me, if our defenders aren't racking up shitloads of possies, it means its a good thing! Schofield is never going to be considered A Grade. He isn't great above the shoulders (and I don't mean his mental side of things). He isn't good when the ball is above shoulder height. He doesn't have Gov, TB or Emac's ball reading capability. He gets caught wrong side of the ball too often. He isn't the strongest either so he will struggle one-on-one. What he does have is a bit of run and mobility. Plenty of times I've seen him run and spread to create space and leave his opponent behind, But tbf to him we haven't used him for that purpose. We look to get the ball to Gov and Hurn in our backline (and now to Mitchell) and why wouldn't we? Elite ball users who can cut up defensive zones by foot. You can't have it both ways. We get shitty when players try to play outside of their ability and do stuff we think they can't and turnover the ball, but we can't also be shitty if they play within themselves and play a role, quite often not backed by any stats. Additionally, if the opposition is blocking space upfield and denying those dangerous kicks then naturally you have more players, particularly mids, that come into the back half to help with handballing and running the ball out. Again, do you want him running it out or would you prefer Gaff, Shuey, Sheed, Hutch, Yeo, Jetta, Wellers etc doing that?

He is mobile. He is quick enough to cover space down back and that is pretty important in your defensive setup because it prevents offensive movement. You don't get a stat for it but FMD you know it hasn't happened when you see it. He isn't bad at being the third man. He can provide an outlet option and he can certainly go for a gallop if given the opportunity but that isn't his primary role. We're too obsessed with disposals. Playing a role effectively doesn't always equate to higher disposals.

If you are mobile and rebound then you should find a bit of the ball. I rather him finding the ball over emac and that's my point.you need the ball in the hands of guys that can truly break the lines. Players who break the lines are not gonna break it every time they gets the ball. So the more footy they find/receive the greater chance of them breaking the lines.

 

[avishka5]

Is that too many breaking lines?

 

[DanWCE]

Is that too many breaking lines?

Never break the line. Just rail the whole thing.

 

[avishka5]

Never break the line. Just rail the whole thing.

I hate it when it catches your phlem and that shitty taste lingers.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

If you are mobile and rebound then you should find a bit of the ball. I rather him finding the ball over emac and that's my point.you need the ball in the hands of guys that can truly break the lines. Players who break the lines are not gonna break it every time they gets the ball. So the more footy they find/receive the greater chance of them breaking the lines.

My point is how many mobile rebounders can you use (not have)? Not every line breaker can be used every time. Sure its great to have a backline full of them, as we seem to be developing, but they aren't always going to be used. We most definitely look for Hurn or Gov around the half back line if we have space. It is so obvious. Schofield isn't going to get a look in when that happens. So, he either feeds the ball to them or he is going to be one of the receivers when they distribute. Feeding them the ball will entirely depend on whether he is at the contest and that to some extent is dependent on his opponent and how the opposition decides to bring the ball in. In that scenario he is generally the one expected to contest with the forward and if possible spoil/bring the ball to ground. Usually Gov/Barrass hangs off and comes in across to cut the pass off, and for good reason, because they're much better at it. They distribute and the ball is out of there (if done well).

If he is going to receive from them he would have to get out the wings and close to forward flanks. He can't always do that if he is being expected to play as a tall defender. He might give them an option to go sideways, but generally he will be expected to be one of the 3-4 players closest to our defensive goal. They aren't going to use him unless they absolutely have to switch the ball. Just because he can be a line breaker and go for a gallop doesn't mean that is how Simmo wants him to play in the structure.

I'm ok with him not racking up more disposals. He can do his job and let the better ball users and line breakers do their thing, he can do it if he has the opportunity, and that in itself requires a degree of respect from his opponent.

 

[avishka5]

Ill

My point is how many mobile rebounders can you use (not have)? Not every line breaker can be used every time. Sure its great to have a backline full of them, as we seem to be developing, but they aren't always going to be used. We most definitely look for Hurn or Gov around the half back line if we have space. It is so obvious. Schofield isn't going to get a look in when that happens. So, he either feeds the ball to them or he is going to be one of the receivers when they distribute. Feeding them the ball will entirely depend on whether he is at the contest and that to some extent is dependent on his opponent and how the opposition decides to bring the ball in. In that scenario he is generally the one expected to contest with the forward and if possible spoil/bring the ball to ground. Usually Gov/Barrass hangs off and comes in across to cut the pass off, and for good reason, because they're much better at it. They distribute and the ball is out of there (if done well).

If he is going to receive from them he would have to get out the wings and close to forward flanks. He can't always do that if he is being expected to play as a tall defender. He might give them an option to go sideways, but generally he will be expected to be one of the 3-4 players closest to our defensive goal. They aren't going to use him unless they absolutely have to switch the ball. Just because he can be a line breaker and go for a gallop doesn't mean that is how Simmo wants him to play in the structure.

I'm ok with him not racking up more disposals. He can do his job and let the better ball users and line breakers do their thing, he can do it if he has the opportunity, and that in itself requires a degree of respect from his opponent.

Will Read this later. This is so long I nearly got fired for using my phone on the job..

Lucky the old man is my boss.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

I hate it when it catches your phlem and that shitty taste lingers.

You are one f****** weird Sri Lankan Aussie man.

 

[KamakazeSalami]

Ill

Will Read this later. This is so long I nearly got fired for using my phone on the job..

Lucky the old man is my boss.

Haha... touch typing is a curse sometimes. Fingers can keep up with all the spew in my head. Not always a good thing.

 

[Keys]

In all seriousness, the amount of cooked shoulders over the last few years at WCE is scary. I just hope McGoverns holds up after surgery last year

Have we had a spate of shoulder injuries though - aside from gov and now Lycett who else has had shoulder issues

It must be my Alzheimers because I can't think of any others

Disagree about schoey. Guy is as complacent as guys like hill and masto. Sure we talk about his rebound but he hasn't really given us consistent rebound since 2013. He is essentially playing just as a pure kpd these days and has to come in contention with emac and tb as Gov is playing like a flanker these days. Emac and tb on paper have him covered but the fact that emac isn't used to our game plan and is shaky disposal is why he will probably play as the second tall.

Only of schoey could find the footy as much as emac. Emac seem to be getting the footy a lot in the last few years.

Schofield played a bit higher up the ground for EP last Saturday and did get a fair bit of the ball (23 disposals).