Coach Prediction? Whos our next coach?

[Mat Mann]

What priority picks did Richmond & WC have? Also your going back a long way to substantiate your argument. I said the formula for the last 10 years. I'll give you Bolton, however, Carlton were not going to allow Bolton to build a list. They were in the business of buying premierships.

your right sorry, I thought you had Rance for the 1st one, retired the year prior
WC had Luke Shoey (2008)

 

[jwikked]

In 18 games time Lyon passes Eade as the coach with most games without a flag!

So?

 

[Ricmel]

So?

Exactly! Who wants to win a flag? They are over rated and after you win one there is only one way to go - down.

 

[jwikked]

Exactly! Who wants to win a flag? They are over rated and after you win one there is only one way to go - down.

The only way to win a flag is to make a Grand Final - something Ross has proven time and time again he’s capable of doing.

 

[sregit]

your right sorry, I thought you had Rance for the 1st one, retired the year prior
WC had Luke Shoey (2008

I’m not trying to hammer RTB. I am aware he’s been unlucky. I was responding to the post question “whos our next coach?” I was just outlining what appears to be the successful formula for choosing a new coach in the past 10 years. Good luck. Love you to win a flag, just not against Richmond and that’s not likely to happen anytime soon with our current list.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

I understand your point, however, as I pointed out in my original post, the most recent winning formula for over the last ten years has been to appoint a young assistant coach with experience in a premiership winning environment. Not recycled coaches, which is what RTB is. They bring a recent winning attitude with them and add their own perceived improvements on top.

But that’s exactly what we’ve done.

We appointed Scott Watters, a young assistant coach in Collingwood’s 2010 Premiership, and under him we’ve become a roaring juggernaut ever since.

Life is good

 

[MordySaint]

I was one who fully advocated for Ross Lyon, Robert Harvey and Brendan Goddard as our coaching panel.

Getting the band back together was a huge plus for me at the time.

It's 3 years into the tenure, now is when the fruit needs to start to bear. If its not now, then we need to know the direction where the club is going for the next few years.

 

[BrutThough]

I understand your point, however, as I pointed out in my original post, the most recent winning formula for over the last ten years has been to appoint a young assistant coach with experience in a premiership winning environment. Not recycled coaches, which is what RTB is. They bring a recent winning attitude with them and add there own perceived improvements on top.

Fagan wasn't young when he was appointed. He was one of the most experienced football person floating around. Or Chris Scott, two years previously - he'd been in the job 11 years at that point. I'd say that his coaching style at that point was much closer to a Ross than to a recently promoted assistant.

I also think it is too simple to put too much weight in recent premiership wins into just the background of the coach given all the inequities that exist in the competition that heavily favours certain teams. Craig McRae - as an example - is someone you would use as example of someone who fit that winning formula but he is also got lucky to be hired by a team that has the advantage of getting to play the grand final at their home ground. The stats show that MCG tenant win the GF more often than not when they feature. Is it just a coincidence that all these teams playing on their home ground have a better coach than the team who travelled?

A coach can have a successful career and be very good at what they do without the trophy to show for it.

 

[saintbill]

I was one who fully advocated for Ross Lyon, Robert Harvey and Brendan Goddard as our coaching panel.

Getting the band back together was a huge plus for me at the time.

It's 3 years into the tenure, now is when the fruit needs to start to bear. If its not now, then we need to know the direction where the club is going for the next few years.

I still have faith that Ross is a good tactician.

However, my concern is development. We can sing "We don't have the cattle" until the cows come home, but that is just 1 variable.

The peristent skill errors and absolute inability to deal with pressure in close are damning, it can't just be bad luck.

Its year 3 and these things appear to be going backwards. We should be doing ridiculous amounts of skills work. I am not saying we don't train it, but I find it hard to believe that we just magically recruit unskilled players consistently.

When you look at King spinning the ball, Owens ball drop, you start to wonder, wtf is going on? These are basic fundamental errors that are not being coached out of their game.

My other huge concern is the lack of physicality. Our skin folds look shocking compared to other clubs. We tend to average about 3kg less per game in weight compared to opposition, however I reckon we carry 2kg extra of fat based on how we look. So that's 5kg of lean muscle we are giving away each week, it's no wonder we are getting bullied around the contest.

If you combine all this with the extra day off talk it really does give the impression the clubs professionalism is still not where it needs to be.

It could be way off base, but it is not a unreasonable conclusion to draw. I think he had a game plan in mind that we can't execute because we are just not up to it physically, which leads to even more skill errors. Can't get the ball first, undersized, and no speed advantage despite being underdeveloped.

I would have a lot more faith in Ross if he put his hand up and said we need to improve our strength and conditioning and we may have got the game plan wrong, and ffs the players are no longer getting extra time off.

 

[MordySaint]

I still have faith that Ross is a good tactician.

However, my concern is development. We can sing "We don't have the cattle" until the cows come home, but that is just 1 variable.

The peristent skill errors and absolute inability to deal with pressure in close are damning, it can't just be bad luck.

Its year 3 and these things appear to be going backwards. We should be doing ridiculous amounts of skills work. I am not saying we don't train it, but I find it hard to believe that we just magically recruit unskilled players consistently.

When you look at King spinning the ball, Owens ball drop, you start to wonder, wtf is going on? These are basic fundamental errors that are not being coached out of their game.

My other huge concern is the lack of physicality. Our skin folds look shocking compared to other clubs. We tend to average about 3kg less per game in weight compared to opposition, however I reckon we carry 2kg extra of fat based on how we look. So that's 5kg of lean muscle we are giving away each week, it's no wonder we are getting bullied around the contest.

If you combine all this with the extra day off talk it really does give the impression the clubs professionalism is still not where it needs to be.

It could be way off base, but it is not a unreasonable conclusion to draw. I think he had a game plan in mind that we can't execute because we are just not up to it physically, which leads to even more skill errors. Can't get the ball first, undersized, and no speed advantage despite being underdeveloped.

I would have a lot more faith in Ross if he put his hand up and said we need to improve our strength and conditioning and we may have got the game plan wrong, and ffs the players are no longer getting extra time off.

Agree with everything you put forward.

I'd also say we need to start looking inward more and less outward. It just seems as though we can't get the basics right ... recruitment, development, conditioning and club culture.

We seem to spend an in-ordinate amount of time and energy on marketing. We seem to over-hype meaningless wins and we also over-hype ordinary players.

Our win over Freemantle at home is a casing example, it was like we had won 3 premierships in a row with a list of superstars at our beckoning. It was pure drinking our own bathwater and on point the club went back into full reverse next week.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Steer clear of failed or recycled coaches. Never take on a player or coach that has not achieved the ultimate success. If the Saints follow this procedure they will have more of a chance to get success. Move one, get rid of Ross.

Agree to disagree.

Ross also worked under a premiership winning coach in Roos.
Ross took 2 different clubs to 3 GFs.
Yes, he missed out, but there was not a helluva lot more he could have done. Literally a ball bounce away from one.
There is an opposition to play on the day afterall.

Difference is that this time Ross has got probably the youngest list he's ever had.
The quality and team balance is not here yet, or not developed yet.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Yes I think he’s failed. Success breeds success and your clubs coach needs to be able to give that belief to his players. I put 10 years in front of you as an example. Players are a different thing altogether. It’s the leadership. Like it or not there is only one successful coach each year. Ross has had a fair go at it but has not succeeded.

But he hasnt. Not with this list. Thats the point.

 

[MordySaint]

But he hasnt. Not with this list. Thats the point.

Look at the recruiting from when RTB and co arrived. The whole recruitment panel changed completely from 2023 onwards.

This list is unbalanced, it hasn't addressed our need for quality midfielders. We were still recruiting midfielder scraps from other clubs as late as last year. We were still using our high draft picks on injured players as late as last year.

We haven't learnt our lesson, we are repeating them.

 

[g_TRAIN]

I turn off the TV when I'm watching a game like that. The way we played was disgusting.

But you can't just sack coaches every time we hit a rough patch. Sometimes it's not the coach. Take a look around, plenty of mid table teams are absolutely stacked with talent right now. This is a brutally competitive league, and we're fighting an uphill battle without any favours. I wish we were a higher-scoring team, but I can't really say I have any other complaints about Ross.

There's a lot of knee-jerk stupidity, a lack of any grasp on the bigger picture, and a complete absence of perspective. Even if Ross eventually isn't the right guy, threads like this are peak footy-fan fickleness: sky-high one minute, doom and gloom the next. Never a level-headed thought in sight.

 

[Saintos The ITK]

Ross needs to cut savage in the coaching ranks if he’s still here next year.
Keep Corey and Bolton, all other spots up for grabs.

 

[sregit]

But that’s exactly what we’ve done.

We appointed Scott Watters, a young assistant coach in Collingwood’s 2010 Premiership, and under him we’ve become a roaring juggernaut ever since.

Life is good

2010, 15 years ago. You need to stay current with what is actually working now. Game styles have changed 2 or 3 times in that period. As much as I hate it, look what the pies are doing with an average list. Coach that fits the profile. Thanks. No more to say on this. Good luck.

 

[pluggeranddoc]

Watters was doomed from the day he tried to put Riewoldt, Montagna &co back in their box.
We have always put our stars on a pedestal and created anatmosphere of individual above team,

Considering the number pf absolute superstars we have had there has to be something seriously wrong with the joint to be on 27 spoons and one flag!

 

[Rickee]

Clarkson a 4 time premiership coach
Lyon has been to 3 grand finals
Malthouse at Carlton
Pagan at Carlton

Sometimes it’s just the list isn’t good enough no matter how good the coach is.

Unpopular opinion: Lyon wasn't that good of a coach the first time around, at least with us.
We had arguably the best team the club has ever assembled, and I blame the tactics for not winning at least one of the Grand Finals we made.

 

[Rickee]

Having such a high bar for what constitutes a good coach is insane. Like I said, you don't make multiple Grand Finals with two different lists, without being a good coach.

The players are why we made those Grand Finals. His coaching lost them for us, particularly 09.

 

[Rickee]

Agree to disagree.

Ross also worked under a premiership winning coach in Roos.
Ross took 2 different clubs to 3 GFs.
Yes, he missed out, but there was not a helluva lot more he could have done. Literally a ball bounce away from one.
There is an opposition to play on the day afterall.

Difference is that this time Ross has got probably the youngest list he's ever had.
The quality and team balance is not here yet, or not developed yet.

The Grand Finals he coached were 2009, 2010 and 2013. Since then, he has coached Fremantle to two finals series for one win and three losses (2014-15) and us to one finals series for a loss (2023). We went 13-10 in his first season, 11-12 in his second and are 4-6 so far this season.

The game has clearly gone past him.

 

[Mr Clunk]

The players are why we made those Grand Finals. His coaching lost them for us, particularly 09.

Yes and no

The players didn't have the ticker to take the next step until Ross got his claws in

His coaching in that GF not the best tho, agree

 

[Rickee]

Look at the recruiting from when RTB and co arrived. The whole recruitment panel changed completely from 2023 onwards.

This list is unbalanced, it hasn't addressed our need for quality midfielders. We were still recruiting midfielder scraps from other clubs as late as last year. We were still using our high draft picks on injured players as late as last year.

We haven't learnt our lesson, we are repeating them.

Does RTB not have some sort of say over that as the coach?

He's had two full seasons to start to direct the club to craft a great list and it hasn't happened. Throwing piles of cash at every big name hasn't panned out either, and there's been zero talk of signing one of our absolute best young players despite being out of contract and having already received offers from rivals.

I know people have loyalty to Ross and fond memories of the last time we were actually good, but we need to let it go. The club simply will not succeed while he is in charge.

 

[Diehard Saint]

The Grand Finals he coached were 2009, 2010 and 2013. Since then, he has coached Fremantle to two finals series for one win and three losses (2014-15) and us to one finals series for a loss (2023). We went 13-10 in his first season, 11-12 in his second and are 4-6 so far this season.

The game has clearly gone past him.

As I mentioned, he doesn’t have a team in the age (or talent ) window right now to judge this. He has a three time premiership layer as his main assistant coach.

4-6 is more than most expected by this stage of the season.

 

[Diehard Saint]

Does RTB not have some sort of say over that as the coach?

He's had two full seasons to start to direct the club to craft a great list and it hasn't happened. Throwing piles of cash at every big name hasn't panned out either, and there's been zero talk of signing one of our absolute best young players despite being out of contract and having already received offers from rivals.

I know people have loyalty to Ross and fond memories of the last time we were actually good, but we need to let it go. The club simply will not succeed while he is in charge.

Two full seasons and has completely changed the list.
They’ve gone to the draft as promised - gone young - was always going to cause some pain. You want a great list in two years?

So what if we’re throwing money out there…you want a great list, that’s what you do, for money and not giving up picks.

NAS will re-sign.

 

[Rickee]

As I mentioned, he doesn’t have a team in the age (or talent ) window right now to judge this. He has a three time premiership layer as his main assistant coach.

4-6 is more than most expected by this stage of the season.

He's had two full seasons and the better part of a third. You would expect to have seen some form of change in that time. Nobody expects instant success, but you'd think there would at least be positive signs after that period, but at the moment I can't think of anything that I can point to as "that's a change he's implimented that has succeeded or will pay off".

How much longer do you want to give him? He has until the end of 2027, so what would be a pass mark for the next two and a half seasons?