Opinion Premier foundations

[mike123]

How so?

They got rid of quality players because they weren't in their next premiership team then their young players struggled without leadership.

 

[Roverjg]

They got rid of quality players because they weren't in their next premiership team then their young players struggled without leadership.

What players were specifically moved on because they were not considered to be in our next premiership team?

 

[Darkyprotector]

We need a change in head coach before we win a flag.

Opinion enough for you knucklehead?

oh ye of little faith
lol if he does turn it around, will be funny to see all that humbleness on this board. Not from you though after reading your negativity

 

[dansa]

Any player not in our next premiership window should be open to trade.

In theory I agree with this strategy.

If Pendlebury or Sidebottom requested a trade I would think it wise to do the deal and look forward 2019 and beyond.

But we can't push them out. Both players have not only been true Collingwood champions who have done everything right. Neither have ever tried to blackmail the club during contract negotiations like say Cloke. I have no doubt either could have left for more money somewhere else- but they stayed loyal.

If we respect that attitude and loyalty, the club needs to show the same.

Premierships and particularly dynasties are build on the foundations of players putting team success ahead of their own financial reward. To push either out would send a terrible message through the club.

 

[jmac70]

In theory I agree with this strategy.

If Pendlebury or Sidebottom requested a trade I would think it wise to do the deal and look forward 2019 and beyond.

But we can't push them out. Both players have not only been true Collingwood champions who have done everything right. Neither have ever tried to blackmail the club during contract negotiations like say Cloke. I have no doubt either could have left for more money somewhere else- but they stayed loyal.

If we respect that attitude and loyalty, the club needs to show the same.

Premierships and particularly dynasties are build on the foundations of players putting team success ahead of their own financial reward. To push either out would send a terrible message through the club.

I'm not suggesting pushing them out, only that the club should have an open mind during trade week.

 

[dansa]

I'm not suggesting pushing them out, only that the club should have an open mind during trade week.

Highly unlikely either would request a trade I suspect. But yes I agree, if they did, we'd be silly not to look at it.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I like that list but not being negative just shows we need a full forward/Centre Half Forward a Centre half back and also some pace.

Yep, list balance - and list development. I know I harp on about development people but I do so for what I consider good reason. Make no mistake this list is close and seems to be - frustratingly so - being held back by bad coaching and "mentoring" all round

 

[Leviathan Pie]

oh ye of little faith
lol if he does turn it around, will be funny to see all that humbleness on this board. Not from you though after reading your negativity

If he turns it around, and we win a flag - I'll be the first one to say I got it wrong.

But it won't happen under current circumstances.

 

[Carringbush2010]

I just don't want to see any more short sighted decisions. We also need to be prepared to put a favourite son on the trade table. Time to be ruthless if we want to get where we need to be. I'm sick of watching other sides in September.

If the club steers in the direction you suggest (which I like) then you realize you're gonna be sick again next year and maybe the year after. Oh and I'd add Kirby to your list

 

[Carringbush2010]

My concern with Kirby is that he is still not fit after a full season.

Will be in 2 years................ if he wants to continue his career

 

[jackcass]

Discounting players based purely on age is simply ridiculous. Sydney seem to go okay with 30+ year olds, Franklin, McVeigh, Grundy, Jack all played today. Crows with Betts and Douglas. How about we build the list based on talent rather than some arbitrary measure.

 

[Hong Kong Pie]

Discounting players based purely on age is simply ridiculous. Sydney seem to go okay with 30+ year olds, Franklin, McVeigh, Grundy, Jack all played today. Crows with Betts and Douglas. How about we build the list based on talent rather than some arbitrary measure.

Yep, this. Having no over-30s just because of age and no being exactly in a Prem. window doesn't take into account so many intangibles like experience, depth, on-field coaching, etc that go into making and shaping great teams.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Yep, this. Having no over-30s just because of age and no being exactly in a Prem. window doesn't take into account so many intangibles like experience, depth, on-field coaching, etc that go into making and shaping great teams.

Nice boot on your avatar

 

[Scodog10]

Let's set aside the individuals currently on our list for a moment because that's always fluid.

What I think the club does focus on is its guiding principles which lead to value adding decisions and in turn on field success. Think of it like a businesses core values. If you get them right the ultimate success can follow.

For me the most important factor in building towards a premiership is establishing a strong FD. This leads to the growth and development of its greatest asset, the players. Therefore the guiding principles for the FD, IMO, would be:

1. Relationship building
2. Knowledge sharing

You can cut those two principles up with any interpretation you like, but ultimately knowledge and relationships are crucial for continuous improvement, IMO.

The next principles are based around your talent. As happens in real life in elite team sport you aren't getting far without the right mix of talent at your disposal. Therefore when compiling the list the most important element is to know where you're at and improving on that position to the best of your abilities. The guiding principles in this area for me are:

1. Strengths and weaknesses
2. Top 6 trade in for value, middle 6 stick to the draft and bottom 6 trade out for value.

A practical example of applying those principles is that our strength is the midfield and our weakness is KPP. We're a middle to bottom 6 club so you trade out midfielders at value to draft and develop KPP's. It's really simple stuff, but as a club we've seriously over complicated things for ourselves the last few seasons with moves on Aish, Treloar, Wells and Mayne either lacking judgement or execution.

The tests for us this off-season are Lynch and Cox. I think it would be great to get Lynch, but at what cost? I have concerns though with the word coming out about the work we've put into his family that we'll have to sell our soul to get it done. Also how do you get the right value for Cox if he's leaves Collingwood as a fwd/ ruck and arrives at his new club as a ruck/ fwd? It's hard to get clubs to pay a premium for potential when the player in question will be 27 come round 1 next year. I just hope the club does everything it can to improve our draft position this year unlike last.

 

[Ted Parker]

I'm actually nervous about this. Kirby really does need to come back in good shape, preferably better shape if thats possible, to prove he really wants this career. I hope he is being mentored and given support while on his break.

I hope the assumptions / concerns that he'll come back in poor shape amount to nothing more than that.

Re this, that'd be one I'd like CFC media / The Agenda to do a few shows on over the summer.
Follow a few players & their mentors and do a short film on the work they do leading into and over the preseason.

Reckon senior listers Goldy & Wells would be ones I'd give the responsibility of attaching themselves to a handful of players over the summer. Wells due his own admission as he came in underdone this season and Goldy for his natural leadership.
At worst it'll ensure there would be a group of players that'd come back stripped fit for the pre-season.

 

[jonbe54]

I hope the assumptions / concerns that he'll come back in poor shape amount to nothing more than that.

Re this, that'd be one I'd like CFC media / The Agenda to do a few shows on over the summer.
Follow a few players & their mentors and do a short film on the work they do leading into and over the preseason.

Reckon senior listers Goldy & Wells would be ones I'd give the responsibility of attaching themselves to a handful of players over the summer. Wells due his own admission as he came in underdone this season and Goldy for his natural leadership.
At worst it'll ensure there would be a group of players that'd come back stripped fit for the pre-season.

Not really assuming here, but a repeat of last preseason would raise concerns.

 

[Horaceg]

My point is that we are three years away from realising this potential and will only do so if we priorities a 2020 flag push.

I don't think we are that far off being s chance, I think we we be playing finals next year and contending the next.

 

[Roverjg]

Discounting players based purely on age is simply ridiculous. Sydney seem to go okay with 30+ year olds, Franklin, McVeigh, Grundy, Jack all played today. Crows with Betts and Douglas. How about we build the list based on talent rather than some arbitrary measure.

Its not based solely on age. We have very limited players play past age 30 over the past 10+ years due to a combination of injury and poor form
Goldsack turned 30 this year. Has played 37 of the past 66 games
Wells turned 32 in February. He played 10 of 22 games due to injury which he was suffering with when we recruited him
Varcoe turned 30 in April. He played only 8 games due to injury. Has missed over a season in games due to injury over the past 3
Reid turns 29 next April. Is limping towards 30. Has played 40 of the past 88 games due to injury
Cloke turned 30 this year. Played 23 of the past 44 games
Toovey was delisted at 29. Played 8 of 22 games in his last year
Swan (32) lasted 7 minutes in 2016
Sam Dwyer delisted at 29. Played 18 of last 44 games
Jesse White (29) was told he was not being given a new contracted so retired. Played 4 games this year
Maxwell (31) played 10 games in his last season
Luke Ball (30) limped through his last season
Lyndon Dunn (30) recruited at the age of 30.

 

[Finnishpie]

Premiership teams are built on a solid foundation. I believe these players are the most likely to form our next premiership foundation:

Fasolo: 25 years
De Goey: 21
Grundy: 23
Elliott: 25
Treloar: 24
Langdon: 23
Scharenberg: 21
Adams: 23
Aish: 21
Brown: 19
Crisp: 23
Daicos: 18
Broomhead: 23
Moore: 21
Hoskin-Elliot: 23
McLarty: 19
Maynard: 20
Howe: 27

The oldest guy on this list is Howe at 27. The list as a whole hits it's peak in 2-3 years. The foundations have been created, we just need the courage now to see this through. IMO, we must aim for 2020 onwards as our window and as such, all selection and recruitment decisions must be based on that. No more mature recruits until we are about to hit our peak. Go to the draft Collingwood and put anyone not on this list on the trade table. A premiership awaits.

Yep, a solid basis, except massive holes in the key positions. Need a quality tall back and quality tall forward to balance Moore and McLarty. Otherwise, still looks solid to me.

 

[ride56]

In theory I agree with this strategy.

If Pendlebury or Sidebottom requested a trade I would think it wise to do the deal and look forward 2019 and beyond.

But we can't push them out. Both players have not only been true Collingwood champions who have done everything right. Neither have ever tried to blackmail the club during contract negotiations like say Cloke. I have no doubt either could have left for more money somewhere else- but they stayed loyal.

If we respect that attitude and loyalty, the club needs to show the same.

Premierships and particularly dynasties are build on the foundations of players putting team success ahead of their own financial reward. To push either out would send a terrible message through the club.

Fully agree. Also I'm not sure how people on here expect all these young guns to deliver if they haven't been properly mentored, especially by those with Premiership experience. Having a core of solid experienced blokes on the field builds culture, discipline and sharing of IP that coaches alone can't handover.

 

[Kirby]

If we traded off Pendles I would seriously lose my s**t.

 

[jackcass]

Its not based solely on age. We have very limited players play past age 30 over the past 10+ years due to a combination of injury and poor form
Goldsack turned 30 this year. Has played 37 of the past 66 games
Wells turned 32 in February. He played 10 of 22 games due to injury which he was suffering with when we recruited him
Varcoe turned 30 in April. He played only 8 games due to injury. Has missed over a season in games due to injury over the past 3
Reid turns 29 next April. Is limping towards 30. Has played 40 of the past 88 games due to injury
Cloke turned 30 this year. Played 23 of the past 44 games
Toovey was delisted at 29. Played 8 of 22 games in his last year
Swan (32) lasted 7 minutes in 2016
Sam Dwyer delisted at 29. Played 18 of last 44 games
Jesse White (29) was told he was not being given a new contracted so retired. Played 4 games this year
Maxwell (31) played 10 games in his last season
Luke Ball (30) limped through his last season
Lyndon Dunn (30) recruited at the age of 30.

And without arguing the specifics of each case you've mentioned although adding Dane Swan to your list shows some desperation, none predict how a player like Pendles will go playing into his 30's. Your suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Rather than discard players because of some ridiculous arbitrary measure, I'd much rather the club fix the issue of playing longevity.

 

[MISFITS]

Fully agree. Also I'm not sure how people on here expect all these young guns to deliver if they haven't been properly mentored, especially by those with Premiership experience. Having a core of solid experienced blokes on the field builds culture, discipline and sharing of IP that coaches alone can't handover.

Administration seems a bigger issue.
No point trading out players if there is no plan in place.
Last few years we have sought free agents and trades.
Results are negligible.
Question?
Is Collingwood topping up their finals contending list.
Or
Is Collingwood redeveloping it's list?

 

[Roverjg]

And without arguing the specifics of each case you've mentioned although adding Dane Swan to your list shows some desperation, none predict how a player like Pendles will go playing into his 30's. Your suggesting throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Rather than discard players because of some ridiculous arbitrary measure, I'd much rather the club fix the issue of playing longevity.

Your comment was discounting players based solely on age was ridiculous. All I highlighted is that we have had little success with our players once they reach 30 for a variety of reasons. I am not advocating getting rid of anyone based on age. However I am not against trading anyone if it will improve our list in the long term. Stop jumping at shadows.

 

[jackcass]

Go to the draft Collingwood and put anyone not on this list on the trade table. A premiership awaits.

Your comment was discounting players based solely on age was ridiculous. All I highlighted is that we have had little success with our players once they reach 30 for a variety of reasons. I am not advocating getting rid of anyone based on age. However I am not against trading anyone if it will improve our list in the long term. Stop jumping at shadows.

My post was a direct response to the OP (specific extract included), the entire premise being about off-loading any player older than Howe (27) due to our premiership window being in 2020. Very much age specific and not a shadow to be seen. Stop trying to make mountains out of molehills.