Presenting the Norm Smith Medal

[McCrann]

Does anyone have a list of everyone who's presented the Norm Smith Medal? I hear there is a system/process they follow with this presentation with past award winners ala Simon Black this year because he won it in 2003 for instance.

 

[35Daicos]

Does anyone have a list of everyone who's presented the Norm Smith Medal? I hear there is a system/process they follow with this presentation with past award winners ala Simon Black this year because he won it in 2003 for instance.

1979 - Marjorie Smith
1980 - Ron Barassi
1981 - Peter Smith
1982 - Jack Mueller
1983 - Kevin Bartlett
1984 - Bob Skilton
1985 - Jim Cardwell
1986 - Percy Beames
1987 - John Beckwith
1988 - Bruce Andrew
1989 - Bill Goggin
1990 - Frank Adams
1991 - David Cloke
1992 - Bruce Doull
1993 - Maurice Rioli
1994 - Gary Ayres
1995 - Bob Rose
1996 - Bob Pratt
1997 - Kevin Murray
1998 - Keith Greig
1999 - Simon Madden
2000 - Lou Richards
2001 - Jack Clarke
2002 - Peter Knights
2003 - Darrel Baldock
2004 - Wayne Harmes
2005 - ? Colin Robertson ?
2006 - Bill Duckworth
2007 - David Rhys-Jones
2008 - Tony Shaw
2009 - Paul Dear
2010 - Peter Matera (drawn game) | Arnold Briedis (replay)
2011 - Michael Long
2012 - Dean Kemp
2013 - Greg Williams
2014 - Glenn Archer
2015 - Andrew McLeod
2016 - Shannon Grant
2017 - James Hird
2018 - Shaun Hart

^ Taken (1979-2017) from the book The Norm Smith Medallists. The book omits the name of the person who presented the 2005 medal to Chris Judd.

Wikiwand - Norm Smith Medal

The Norm Smith Medal is an Australian rules football award presented annually to the player adjudged the best on ground in the Grand Final of the Australian Football League (AFL). Prior to 1990, the competition was known as the Victorian Football League (VFL). It was first presented in the 1979...

www.wikiwand.com

Since 2004, former Norm Smith medallists have presented the award, in the order of the year in which they won; as of 2017, Gary Ablett Sr. is the only former winner to decline presenting the award.

 

[35Daicos]

That should be Colin Robertson (2005)!:

 

[McCrann]

1979 - Marjorie Smith
1980 - Ron Barassi
1981 - Peter Smith
1982 - Jack Mueller
1983 - Kevin Bartlett
1984 - Bob Skilton
1985 - Jim Cardwell
1986 - Percy Beames
1987 - John Beckwith
1988 - Bruce Andrew
1989 - Bill Goggin
1990 - Frank Adams
1991 - David Cloke
1992 - Bruce Doull
1993 - Maurice Rioli
1994 - Gary Ayres
1995 - Bob Rose
1996 - Bob Pratt
1997 - Kevin Murray
1998 - Keith Greig
1999 - Simon Madden
2000 - Lou Richards
2001 - Jack Clarke
2002 - Peter Knights
2003 - Darrel Baldock
2004 - Wayne Harmes
2005 - ? Colin Robertson ?
2006 - Bill Duckworth
2007 - David Rhys-Jones
2008 - Tony Shaw
2009 - Paul Dear
2010 - Peter Matera (drawn game) | Arnold Briedis (replay)
2011 - Michael Long
2012 - Dean Kemp
2013 - Greg Williams
2014 - Glenn Archer
2015 - Andrew McLeod
2016 - Shannon Grant
2017 - James Hird
2018 - Shaun Hart

^ Taken (1979-2017) from the book The Norm Smith Medallists. The book omits the name of the person who presented the 2005 medal to Chris Judd.

Wikiwand - Norm Smith Medal

The Norm Smith Medal is an Australian rules football award presented annually to the player adjudged the best on ground in the Grand Final of the Australian Football League (AFL). Prior to 1990, the competition was known as the Victorian Football League (VFL). It was first presented in the 1979...

www.wikiwand.com

Since 2004, former Norm Smith medallists have presented the award, in the order of the year in which they won; as of 2017, Gary Ablett Sr. is the only former winner to decline presenting the award.

So going forward it is expected to be the following.....

2019 - Simon Black
2020 - Byron Pickett
2021 - Chris Judd (to a Carlton player perhaps?)
2022 - Andrew Embley
2023 - Nathan Buckley (Have to put him in here somewhere)
2024 - Steve Johnson
2025 - Luke Hodge
2026 - Paul Chapman
2027 - Lenny Hayes
2028 - Scott Pendlebury
2029 - Jimmy Bartel
2030 - Ryan O'Keefe
2031 - Brian Lake (Presuming he is able)
2032 - Cyril Rioli
2033 - Jason Johannisen
2034 - Dustin Martin
2035 - Luke Shuey
2036 - Whoever wins this year assuming it's not Luke Hodge, Scott Pendlebury, Dustin Martin or Luke Shuey.

 

[Gibbsy]

1979 - Marjorie Smith
1980 - Ron Barassi
1981 - Peter Smith
1982 - Jack Mueller
1983 - Kevin Bartlett
1984 - Bob Skilton
1985 - Jim Cardwell
1986 - Percy Beames
1987 - John Beckwith
1988 - Bruce Andrew
1989 - Bill Goggin
1990 - Frank Adams
1991 - David Cloke
1992 - Bruce Doull
1993 - Maurice Rioli
1994 - Gary Ayres
1995 - Bob Rose
1996 - Bob Pratt
1997 - Kevin Murray
1998 - Keith Greig
1999 - Simon Madden
2000 - Lou Richards
2001 - Jack Clarke
2002 - Peter Knights
2003 - Darrel Baldock
2004 - Wayne Harmes
2005 - ? Colin Robertson ?
2006 - Bill Duckworth
2007 - David Rhys-Jones
2008 - Tony Shaw
2009 - Paul Dear
2010 - Peter Matera (drawn game) | Arnold Briedis (replay)
2011 - Michael Long
2012 - Dean Kemp
2013 - Greg Williams
2014 - Glenn Archer
2015 - Andrew McLeod
2016 - Shannon Grant
2017 - James Hird
2018 - Shaun Hart

^ Taken (1979-2017) from the book The Norm Smith Medallists. The book omits the name of the person who presented the 2005 medal to Chris Judd.

Wikiwand - Norm Smith Medal

The Norm Smith Medal is an Australian rules football award presented annually to the player adjudged the best on ground in the Grand Final of the Australian Football League (AFL). Prior to 1990, the competition was known as the Victorian Football League (VFL). It was first presented in the 1979...

www.wikiwand.com

Since 2004, former Norm Smith medallists have presented the award, in the order of the year in which they won; as of 2017, Gary Ablett Sr. is the only former winner to decline presenting the award.

How is that book, mate? Worthwhile? Does it have voting data for each year?

 

[35Daicos]

How is that book, mate? Worthwhile? Does it have voting data for each year?

I'd say it's quite a decent book, and well worth owning. It has just short of 600 pages, so there's plenty of it!

It doesn't have much in the way of statistics/facts & figures. It includes the names of the judges for all years, but shows the actual votes (given by each of the judges) from 2005 onwards. For 2003 & 2004 they just give the total number of votes received by any of the players. Presumably those details were never made public before then. For 2004 it adds: The AFL published the totals in 2004, but not the breakdown of votes by the judges. For the years prior to 2003 it does include the voting from a leading newspaper of the day, with the names of those voting and their 3-2-1 votes.

 

[worbod]

I'd say it's quite a decent book, and well worth owning. It has just short of 600 pages, so there's plenty of it!

It doesn't have much in the way of statistics/facts & figures. It includes the names of the judges for all years, but shows the actual votes (given by each of the judges) from 2005 onwards. For 2003 & 2004 they just give the total number of votes received by any of the players. Presumably those details were never made public before then. For 2004 it adds: The AFL published the totals in 2004, but not the breakdown of votes by the judges. For the years prior to 2003 it does include the voting from a leading newspaper of the day, with the names of those voting and their 3-2-1 votes.

The Norm Smith judges for 2003 and 2004, along with their 3-2-1 preferences, are listed in the introductory pages of the relevant AFL Record Season Guides.

 

[35Daicos]

The Norm Smith judges for 2003 and 2004, along with their 3-2-1 preferences, are listed in the introductory pages of the relevant AFL Record Season Guides.

Indeed they are! A rather strange error/omission from the book then! The 2002 voting details are also available (2003 Season Guide), so no idea what happened there. Now that appears to be the first year the full details were released.

 

[worbod]

It seems as though The Herald-Sun have printed the 1995 Norm Smith judges and votes in their October 2, 1995 edition:

Mike Sheahan: 3-Greg Williams, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Justin Madden
Ron Reed: 3-Anthony Koutofides, 2-Greg Williams, 1-Peter Dean
Leigh Matthews: 3-Greg Williams, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Justin Madden
Trevor Grant: 3-Peter Dean, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Greg Williams


Four years later, The Herald-Sun listed the 1999 judges (Wayne Jackson, Jason Dunstall, Caroline Wilson, Anthony Hudson) but not their votes.

 

[worbod]

It seems the first three winners of the Norm Smith Medal had a link to Smith himself.

Wayne Harmes is a great nephew of Norm Smith.
Kevin Bartlett kicked 7 goals in his Norm Smith performance, which equalled the then grand final record for most goals in a grand final. One of the previous players who had kicked 7 goals in a grand final was Norm Smith (1940).
Bruce Doull, the 1981 winner, played his debut game versus South Melbourne in round 5, 1969, the South Melbourne coach being Norm Smith.

 

[35Daicos]

It seems as though The Herald-Sun have printed the 1995 Norm Smith judges and votes in their October 2, 1995 edition:

Mike Sheahan: 3-Greg Williams, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Justin Madden
Ron Reed: 3-Anthony Koutofides, 2-Greg Williams, 1-Peter Dean
Leigh Matthews: 3-Greg Williams, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Justin Madden
Trevor Grant: 3-Peter Dean, 2-Anthony Koutofides, 1-Greg Williams


Four years later, The Herald-Sun listed the 1999 judges (Wayne Jackson, Jason Dunstall, Caroline Wilson, Anthony Hudson) but not their votes.

Are you sure they weren't just The Herald-Sun writers? The book names the 1995 judges as: Ross Oakley, Malcolm Blight, Kevin Bartlett and Rohan Connolly (their votes aren't shown). That year they include the names of the "judges" from The Age (with their votes). The following year they show Herald-Sun writers/votes. Mike Sheahan, Ron Reed and Trevor Grant are there, as are Bruce Matthews and several others.

 

[worbod]

Are you sure they weren't just The Herald-Sun writers? The book names the 1995 judges as: Ross Oakley, Malcolm Blight, Kevin Bartlett and Rohan Connolly (their votes aren't shown). That year they include the names of the "judges" from The Age (with their votes). The following year they show Herald-Sun writers/votes. Mike Sheahan, Ron Reed and Trevor Grant are there, as are Bruce Matthews and several others.

Yes, it would most likely be Herald-Sun journo votes. I'll go with what your book says. I thought I would put my info out there as the 1995 Herald-Sun edition I mentioned listed four judges, so it seemed possible they could have been the official Norm Smith adjudicators, but it's good somebody has been able to clarify.

 

[Wallaby]

There is another book out there - can;t find it with a quick Google search. It's called something like 'Best When It Counts' and it's a summary of the players who probably would have won the Norm Smith - if there was one back when they played. It uses newspaper reports etc to put up some possiblities. Also has interviews with the players (where possible) and other affected persons (coaches etc).

I found it at the local library a few years ago. Good read.

The most interesting fact I found was that Percy Beames was quite possibly the best player in 3 straight GFs - 1939-1941. If they had awarded Normies back then, Beames might be one of the All-time legends now - despite being pretty much forgotten, except by Melbourne fans.

 

[Gibbsy]

There is another book out there - can;t find it with a quick Google search. It's called something like 'Best When It Counts' and it's a summary of the players who probably would have won the Norm Smith - if there was one back when they played. It uses newspaper reports etc to put up some possiblities. Also has interviews with the players (where possible) and other affected persons (coaches etc).

I found it at the local library a few years ago. Good read.

The most interesting fact I found was that Percy Beames was quite possibly the best player in 3 straight GFs - 1939-1941. If they had awarded Normies back then, Beames might be one of the All-time legends now - despite being pretty much forgotten, except by Melbourne fans.

I have it in hard copy, bought it around the time of release which from memory was 2006. It’s called “When It Matters Most”. Great read.

 

[cricketnut14]

maybe Michael Tuck can hand out a Norm Smith and get the name of the medal correct this time round

 

[Procrastinator35]

I reckon the time is well over-due for them to award it retrospectively via the same process....Have 5 nominated blokes (Respected football people) drawn from a hat of say 50 nominees, & sit down & watch each Grand Final & vote on it at the end of each Grand Final....How difficult could it be?...Then re-draw 5 more names for each year on a rotating policy.....That way you spread the load & no one gets exhausted.....It could get done alot quicker that way. With the provision that no player from either team represented can be in the group of 5 voting on each game.

 

[cricketnut14]

I reckon the time is well over-due for them to award it retrospectively via the same process....Have 5 nominated blokes (Respected football people) drawn from a hat of say 50 nominees, & sit down & watch each Grand Final & vote on it at the end of each Grand Final....How difficult could it be?...Then re-draw 5 more names for each year on a rotating policy.....That way you spread the load & no one gets exhausted.....It could get done alot quicker that way. With the provision that no player from either team represented can be in the group of 5 voting on each game.

Would be good.

How would 1897 & 1924 work ?

How far back do we have footage ?

The brownlow only goes back to 1924 though.

One thing that is a silly award is the Gary Ayres medal without disrepect to Ayres himself.
It's flawed and no player gets recognised by this.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Would be good.

How would 1897 & 1924 work ?

How far back do we have footage ?

The brownlow only goes back to 1924 though.

One thing that is a silly award is the Gary Ayres medal without disrepect to Ayres himself.
It's flawed and no player gets recognised by this.

In line with the Brownlow medal sounds a judicious enough suggestion.....Just unsure on how far back full replays of VFL Grand Finals extend to....That would be the only provision on limitations I can foresee.

 

[worbod]

In line with the Brownlow medal sounds a judicious enough suggestion.....Just unsure on how far back full replays of VFL Grand Finals extend to....That would be the only provision on limitations I can foresee.

In the AFL Record Season Guide they list "Grand Final Best on Ground" players between 1965 and 1978 (prior to the institution of the Norm Smith) which were selected by "a panel of football and media experts". It is stated that 1965 is the cut off point "because there is little or no vision of Grand Finals before 1965".


I am quite sure the 1961 grand final was available on Name a Game, but this would then leave a gap if there is little or no vision of 1962, 63 or 64.

 

[Procrastinator35]

In the AFL Record Season Guide they list "Grand Final Best on Ground" players between 1965 and 1978 (prior to the institution of the Norm Smith) which were selected by "a panel of football and media experts". It is stated that 1965 is the cut off point "because there is little or no vision of Grand Finals before 1965".

I am quite sure the 1961 grand final was available on Name a Game, but this would then leave a gap if there is little or no vision of 1962, 63 or 64.

So it's high time they converted that 'Best on' list into a posthumous Norm Smith award....Not sure why they're dragging their feet on it.

1961 Brendan Edwards was the clear Best on; Ditto Polly Farmer in 1963....The other early 60's I have no idea, but I'm sure there are still some old Demons & Bombers fans around who'd know for sure.

 

[Wallaby]

I'm not a fan of re-watching the GFs and retrospectively awarding medals. We would watch them with current eyes without understanding the tactics or. For a start, the skill levels are significantly higher. There was no zoning defence. Different fitness levels lead to different ways of playing the game. Interchange has changed how the midfielders play (1950s wouldn't even understand the concept of midfields and rotations - you want a rest - go to the forward pocket).

Too many changes.

If it is going to be done, go to the original sources. Read the newspaper reports of the time - if possible, obtain transcripts of radio reviews. Analyse those by a group of researchers, and come to a consensus. The opinions formed at the time are the most valuable.

Otherwise, let them be. I don't think a Norm Smith medal (or whatever it is called) is that important to be fiddling with history.

 

[Procrastinator35]

I'm not a fan of re-watching the GFs and retrospectively awarding medals. We would watch them with current eyes without understanding the tactics or. For a start, the skill levels are significantly higher. There was no zoning defence. Different fitness levels lead to different ways of playing the game. Interchange has changed how the midfielders play (1950s wouldn't even understand the concept of midfields and rotations - you want a rest - go to the forward pocket).

Too many changes.

If it is going to be done, go to the original sources. Read the newspaper reports of the time - if possible, obtain transcripts of radio reviews. Analyse those by a group of researchers, and come to a consensus. The opinions formed at the time are the most valuable.

Otherwise, let them be. I don't think a Norm Smith medal (or whatever it is called) is that important to be fiddling with history.

But why then only award it from 1979 onwards?….What separates 1979 from say the standard of play in 1970?.....It's way too random & arbitrary a cut-off point....Especially considering Norm Smith finished his coaching career come the end of 1972.

Mike Sheehan argues that the modern game & tactics began from 1960, in response to the dominance Norm Smith & his Demons held up till that time.

Most of the other major defining individual awards, have also been applied retrospectively, so why the anomaly here?.....Just doesn't make any sense at ll.

 

[Gibbsy]

But why then only award it from 1979 onwards?….What separates 1979 from say the standard of play in 1970?.....It's way too random & arbitrary a cut-off point....Especially considering Norm Smith finished his coaching career come the end of 1972.

Mike Sheehan argues that the modern game & tactics began from 1960, in response to the dominance Norm Smith & his Demons held up till that time.

Most of the other major defining individual awards, have also been applied retrospectively, so why the anomaly here?.....Just doesn't make any sense at ll.

All the other major defining individual awards are objective, are they not?

 

[Wallaby]

But why then only award it from 1979 onwards?….What separates 1979 from say the standard of play in 1970?.....It's way too random & arbitrary a cut-off point....Especially considering Norm Smith finished his coaching career come the end of 1972.

Mike Sheehan argues that the modern game & tactics began from 1960, in response to the dominance Norm Smith & his Demons held up till that time.

Most of the other major defining individual awards, have also been applied retrospectively, so why the anomaly here?.....Just doesn't make any sense at ll.

The Norm Smith medal was only created in 1979, so it was a difficult to award it before then. The leading goalkicker was always recognised, if we didn't actually have a little bit of tin to commemorate it. Calling it a Coleman Medal doesn't change it in any way. The retrospective Brownlows are interesting - in one sense, they should not have been awarded, because they were won (and lost) at the time, under the rules as they stood at the time. On the other hand, I agree the way we award them now is fairer (as fair as an arbitrary 3-2-1 voting system can be), and we awarding them based on actual votes cast at the time. And we haven't gone back pre-1924 to award retrospective Brownlows for those years. The Brownlow has changed over the years - from just one umpire voting to 2 separate sets from each umpire, to now we have 4 umpires input (including the emergency). Should we retrospectively review Brownlows every time we change its rules?

There were tactics in the game from pre-1897. Defining 'modern' or 'historic' doesn't mean anything. They were different tactics and different styles of play. Players made different choices.

Look, to be honest, it doesn't make any significant difference to the game either way if they award them - it's just my preference not to. My view of history. I tend not to like individual 'opinion' awards - particularly not in a team sport (that includes the Brownlow and NS).

 

[Procrastinator35]

All the other major defining individual awards are objective, are they not?

What's so objective about the Brownlow Medal pray tell?

How on earth could a midfield rover who kicked 91 goals in a season not win the Brownlow Medal, or even finish top 3, if it were objective in any sense whatsoever?