Discussion Prison Bars debate

[Freight Train]

This whole Port agreed to this, they made their bed now they sleep in it argument is an absolute load of s**t. Jog on with that, that's like saying that someone is mugging you at knifepoint, you can either hand over your wallet or get stabbed, so you hand over your wallet and then someone's like "oh well they're not entitled to that wallet anymore, they handed it over voluntarily." Port only had one choice to remain viable as a profitable business and keep people in jobs and preserve the future of the club and that was to join the national league.

• This agreement was made over 20 years ago, before the advent of away/clash jumpers
• Port didn't have a lot of choice - either stay on a sinking SANFL ship or move to the new VFL/AFL and receive national exposure
• There was the agreement made (allegedly) that if Port finished on top of Collingwood for consecutive seasons, they'd be allowed to return to black and white
• Port wearing the PBs will not diminish the Collingwood brand at all. That's like saying North and Geelong diminish each other's brands by wearing blue and white stripes
• For the large majority of Collingwood's history, you've been white with black stripes. It's only since Port joined the league Collingwood have taken the black with white stripes look, so if you really wanna go on about history, you could have the Pies in their historic jumper and Port in their historic jumper and there is no clash, and no "this is our brand" argument.

Easy for Collingwood fans to talk down on this when you lucked into the financially viable league (which if West Coast hadn't have joined, it wouldn't have been). If it was the SANFL that became the AFL, and Collingwood had to give up their heritage, I'll bet every last dollar I have the argument would be from Collingwood fans to "return the stripes".

I think this whole argument is a bit like daylight savings or marriage equality - people will resist change because they feel it could negatively impact them but then it actually happens and life goes on all the same, nothing really changes apart from the people who wanted the change in the first place - by this I mean Port get to keep their tradition, and nothing at all will change for Collingwood. Your brand will not be watered down, people will still see full black and white stripes as Collingwood. Collingwood will still be the Magpies of the AFL.

 

[aCunningPlan]

Add the tiniest bit of teal to the Prison Bars is some fashion, even just the cuffs, and I have no problem with Port changing their jumper.

 

[caloschwaby]

Jog on with that, that's like saying that someone is mugging you at knifepoint, you can either hand over your wallet or get stabbed, so you hand over your wallet and then someone's like "oh well they're not entitled to that wallet anymore, they handed it over voluntarily." Port only had one choice to remain viable as a profitable business and keep people in jobs and preserve the future of the club and that was to join the national league.

So at what point did the AFL effectively force Port Adelaide to join their league? As far as I understand, Port Adelaide approached the AFL behind the SANFL's back who wanted to stand united in the new AFL competition, so the analogy that they were forced at gunpoint to adopt a new identity doesn't seem entirely accurate.

If it was the SANFL that became the AFL, and Collingwood had to give up their heritage, I'll bet every last dollar I have the argument would be from Collingwood fans to "return the stripes".

What If's are interesting to discuss, however this isn't the way reality has turned out and therefore alternative scenarios cannot be applied in the same way with so many variables at play.

EDIT: FWIW, I actually wouldn't mind PB's being rolled out on a number of occasions per year (Showdowns? Finals?), wouldn't be as special if it were worn all the time and nuffies who don't understand the history would probably complain that they're copying Collingwood or something

 

[Munners]

Magpies wear the wharf pylons and Power wear teal, that's where I stand but I'm biased.

 

[Pappagallo]

There was the agreement made (allegedly) that if Port finished on top of Collingwood for consecutive seasons, they'd be allowed to return to black and white

Lots of great points, but this one is fact. It’s in writing, in a letter from Allan McAlister to our then president Greg Boulton. I’ve seen it posted on the Port Board before, I’ll try to find it.

The deal was for three consecutive seasons. We finished above them 1997-2001. Season 2000 is a funny one actually, we finished 14th but they finished 15th haha.

TBH I don’t think it’s really at the heart of why we should be allowed to wear whatever we want at home, but it’s interesting that Port are expected to honour everything they agreed to over a generation ago when Collingwood didn’t almost immediately.

 

[Adz2332]

How far do Port have to alter the prison bars to circumvent this apparent agreement?
According to Eddie, Port just need to be "creative" and add teal and then there will be no problem.

View attachment 673836

id rather not do it at all then wear a random made up guernsey. the above isnt part of our history.

 

[Freight Train]

So at what point did the AFL effectively force Port Adelaide to join their league? As far as I understand, Port Adelaide approached the AFL behind the SANFL's back who wanted to stand united in the new AFL competition, so the analogy that they were forced at gunpoint to adopt a new identity doesn't seem entirely accurate.

What If's are interesting to discuss, however this isn't the way reality has turned out and therefore alternative scenarios cannot be applied in the same way with so many variables at play.

It wasn't the case that the AFL forced Port Adelaide to join, it was the case that Port Adelaide were forced to join to remain financially viable because the SANFL was a sinking ship financially. A professional footy club is a business at the end of the day. As far as I can tell, in this move, there is no signed contract that says "Port Adelaide cannot wear black and white and have to wear teal", it's just that early on when Port tried to wear the bars for Heritage Round, Eddie kicked up a fuss and the AFL sided with him ultimately.

If anything, the contract is the other way around where Collingwood, if we're talking about staying true to one's word, should honour their agreement that if Port are able to finish above them for consecutive seasons, Port can wear whatever the f**k they'd like.

Also don't think you can really dismiss the what-if when the situation would be identical if SANFL were the financial hub and not the VFL. It's a simple question - if the roles were reversed, would Collingwood kick up the same fuss? No doubt in my mind, the answer would be yes. If it were your history, you'd care a hell of a lot more.

 

[Adz2332]

plenty of teal.....
but some how this resembles collingwood guernseys??

 

[Adz2332]

i mean its almost identical!

 

[Timewaster]

It wasn't the case that the AFL forced Port Adelaide to join, it was the case that Port Adelaide were forced to join to remain financially viable because the SANFL was a sinking ship financially. A professional footy club is a business at the end of the day.

Footy clubs are not-for-profits. Financial viability is the last thing they can hang their hat on. They voluntarily moved to what they (correctly) thought was a higher level comp.

As far as I can tell, in this move, there is no signed contract that says "Port Adelaide cannot wear black and white and have to wear teal".

It's widely reported that the terms of accession included dropping the nickname and guernsey. It was in all the newspapers at the time and I don't think Port have ever tried to deny it

Port can wear whatever the f**k they'd like.

Yeah, except they expressly said they wouldn't. Honouring agreements is generally seen as a plus.

Also don't think you can really dismiss the what-if when the situation would be identical if SANFL were the financial hub and not the VFL. It's a simple question - if the roles were reversed, would Collingwood kick up the same fuss? No doubt in my mind, the answer would be yes.

Agreed, and we'd all expect Collingwood to do what they said they'd do and not try to weasel out of a deal.

 

[sjohnson]

Bit off-topic, but I'm not sure I accept the argument that "Port had to join the AFL to remain financially viable". What made Port any better or more deserving than other strong traditional clubs like East Freo and Norwood? Going by that same logic, wouldn't they also have had to join the national league? Instead of going behind the back of their traditional leagues, they stayed put, and as such were able to retain their identities.
I'm still in support of returning the Prison Bars, I just don't agree with that argument.

 

[Pappagallo]

Bit off-topic, but I'm not sure I accept the argument that "Port had to join the AFL to remain financially viable". What made Port any better or more deserving than other strong traditional clubs like East Freo and Norwood? Going by that same logic, wouldn't they also have had to join the national league? Instead of going behind the back of their traditional leagues, they stayed put, and as such were able to retain their identities.
I'm still in support of returning the Prison Bars, I just don't agree with that argument.

We didn’t enter the AFL to make money, we’re a non-profit entity anyway. Our motto is “we exist to win premierships” and we wanted to be doing that in the best competition available, which in the late 80s was fast becoming not the SANFL.

 

[bomberclifford]

Bit off-topic, but I'm not sure I accept the argument that "Port had to join the AFL to remain financially viable". What made Port any better or more deserving than other strong traditional clubs like East Freo and Norwood? Going by that same logic, wouldn't they also have had to join the national league? Instead of going behind the back of their traditional leagues, they stayed put, and as such were able to retain their identities.

The VFL approached Port AND Norwood.

Norwood were up to their guts in it but bottled at the last minute.

The rest is history.

 

[Fizzler]

Bit off-topic, but I'm not sure I accept the argument that "Port had to join the AFL to remain financially viable". What made Port any better or more deserving than other strong traditional clubs like East Freo and Norwood? Going by that same logic, wouldn't they also have had to join the national league? Instead of going behind the back of their traditional leagues, they stayed put, and as such were able to retain their identities.
I'm still in support of returning the Prison Bars, I just don't agree with that argument.

Everyone needed to join the AFL to not become irrelevant, it’s just that Port has the strongest bid for 1997 and there’s only a certain amount of teams that could’ve been in the league.

 

[Freight Train]

Yeah, except they expressly said they wouldn't. Honouring agreements is generally seen as a plus.

And Collingwood also made an agreement saying that after Port established themselves and topped them on the ladder for a few years (whether this was generosity or arrogance I’m not sure) that Port could return to the bars, or at least this is what I understand of it.

So you wanna hold Collingwood to the idea of upholding a deal, then hold them to it.

The agreement upon entry may have been to drop the Magpies moniker and guernsey but this is over 20 years on as I said, before we had clash guernseys.

Also even if clubs are NFP, financial viability is still a big deal. Look at West Perth in the WAFL who recently went broke and were essentially on the brink of folding.

 

[Prison bar Pete]

And Collingwood also made an agreement saying that after Port established themselves and topped them on the ladder for a few years (whether this was generosity or arrogance I’m not sure) that Port could return to the bars, or at least this is what I understand of it.

From Destiny by Dr Norman Ashton (2018) p 153:
"Given who the opponent was to be in 1997, a letter of 1 September 1995 from Collingwood President, Allan McAlister to Port Adelaide President, Greg Bouton (sic) contained the following surprise offer: We at Collingwood are most grateful for Port Adelaide accepting it should enter the AFL with a change from its black-and-white colours and Magpie name which we have held dear to our hearts at Collingwood. I will reiterate to our board that if Port Adelaide Football Club should succeed in ranking higher than the Collingwood Football Club for three consecutive years in the AFL then our objections will be waived"

 

[Fizzler]

From Destiny by Dr Norman Ashton (2018) p 153:
"Given who the opponent was to be in 1997, a letter of 1 September 1995 from Collingwood President, Allan McAlister to Port Adelaide President, Greg Bouton (sic) contained the following surprise offer: We at Collingwood are most grateful for Port Adelaide accepting it should enter the AFL with a change from its black-and-white colours and Magpie name which we have held dear to our hearts at Collingwood. I will reiterate to our board that if Port Adelaide Football Club should succeed in ranking higher than the Collingwood Football Club for three consecutive years in the AFL then our objections will be waived"

Checkmate, Collingwood.

 

[Timewaster]

Checkmate, Collingwood.

Any link to this in the public record?

 

[The_torpedo]

Any link to this in the public record?

Destiny: How Port Adelaide put itself on the national stage by Dr Norman Ashton (2018) p 153

 

[barrackers]

when the PBs are their true identity

Is it though? Certainly not over their initial years and there's also been a number of years since their introduction that they weren't worn. Undoubtably it's what PA are now historically known for, but it wasn't always that strong.

Publications at the time show there was a lot of passion for the magenta and a strong desire by some to maintain it. In terms of numbers there's a significant number of years where Port haven't worn the bars; excluding a few heritage games there's 72 years (48%) in Port's SANFL/AFL history where they haven't worn the black and white bars. In terms of just SANFL (1870-1996) there's a total of 49 years (38.6%) where they didn't wear them.


This is what I could find on the change from magenta to black and white...

The Register 27 Mar 1902
Evening Journal 27 Mar 1902

The annual meeting of the Port Adelaide Electorate Football Club, was held at the Railway Hotel on Wednesday evening.

A discussion took place on the question of the colours. It was mentioned that the magenta and blue jackets were very unsatisfactory to the play-ers, and that it was impossible to procure pro-perly dyed costumes. A proposal to submit the question to a committee for consideration was not entertained, and after a lengthy discussion it was decided to retain tho old colours.

The Advertiser 28 Mar 1902

On Wednesday evening the annual meet-ing of the Port Adelaide Football Club took place at the Railway Hotel.

A discussion took place concerning the question of the club's colors. It was argued that the pre-sent color faded rapidly, and black-and-white was suggested as a substitute. A majority, however, decided for the reten-tion of the magenta and blue.

Adelaide Observer 26 Apr 1902
Evening Journal 26 Apr 1902

The Port Club has decided to change its colours from magenta and blue to black and white. For some seasons past it has been difficult to obtain a costume which would retain the magenta dye for any length of time, and it was this difficulty that led the club to seek a change. A section of the club objected to the innovation on sentimental grounds, but the majority overruled them, and the players will from the opening match appear in a natty costume. I rather think I would have been on the side of those who desired to retain the magenta on sentimental grounds. The magenta banner has floated at the top after many a desperate battle. It has a distinctly Port association, and even if my costume was not so dainty as other teams I think I would have stuck to the old colour.

The Critic 26 Apr 1902

There is a chance, by the way, of the old club changing its colors and dropping the magenta, but I refuse to believe it.

The Register 29 Apr 1902
Evening Journal 29 Apr 1902

On Monday even-ing a special meeting of the committee was held at the Prince Alfred Hotel. Mr. W. G. Coombs presided. Permits were granted to... The Port Club re-gistered a change of colour from magenta and blue to black and white.

Chronicle 3 May 1902

The club's colors have been changed, the magenta-and-blue having been discarded for' black-and-white. The new costumes look exceedingly well. Objection was not taken to the magenta-and-blue, but it was found to be practically impossible to get a magenta dye to stand the South Australian weather.

The Advertiser 5 May 1902

The Ports appeared in their new costume of black-and-white. It much improves the ap-pearance of the team.

The Register 5 May 1902

The Ports had beaten the visiting club on the three occasions when conclusions were tried last season, and the local club's supporters were confident that the black-and-whites— erstwhile magentas— would again be victorious.

 

[Prison bar Pete]

Look, it's been a hard and bitter pill to swallow, but I think the majority of Port fans have finally got over the demise of the magenta

(thumbs up for the research btw)

 

[barrackers]

Look, it's been a hard and bitter pill to swallow, but I think the majority of Port fans have finally got over the demise of the magenta

(thumbs up for the research btw)

That's the thing though what Port were known for (magenta) changed and despite there being some initial unease the new colours were ultimately not only accepted, but embraced. Who's to say that in another 20, 30... 100 years the bars vs teal debate won't end up the same. I assume there's at least some newer/younger fans who already feel that way, just like they'd be some newer/younger Collingwood fans who feel more passionately towards our black number panel.

 

[Fizzler]

I think the whole magenta compromise is a bit silly. We want to wear the PBS because it’s what the majority of our fans relate to, nobody was alive for magenta Ports and can’t relate to it, so it would defeat the purpose.

 

[Timewaster]

That's some bloke spreading hearsay in a memoir. No newspaper articles quoting Collingwood?

 

[barrackers]

I think the whole magenta compromise is a bit silly. We want to wear the PBS because it’s what the majority of our fans relate to, nobody was alive for magenta Ports and can’t relate to it, so it would defeat the purpose.

A lot of the arguments for the bars that I've read are based around tradition (there was even a news corp journo recently who claimed they were Port's first jumper). It's a fair argument to say that fans relate to the bars, but I think the tradition argument is a little light.