Discussion Prison Bars debate

[jle101]

This misses the point entirely. We want to wear our traditional guernsey, not desecrate it. We’re not interested in compromising the design. We’ve been wearing compromises for 25 years.

We’ve already worn the original Prison Bars 5 times in the AFL. There was no need to compromise the design on any of these occasions and there’ll be no need in the future. We just want to do the same thing more often.

Yeah, I could have guessed that concept wouldn't fly with 99.9% of Port fans, was just offering my 2c worth. As a Carlton supporter, I feel we have a timeless jumper design much in the same vein as Port's PB's, but when we take to the field with our white, gold, or even light blue clash jumpers I don't see them as "desecrations". But at the same time I fully understand that we at least have the luxury of wearing our traditional jumper design at home.

I'm all for Port wearing the PB's & also dislike how the V/AFL has being disrespecting the history of Australian Football outside of its own league. If it were up to me I'd let them wear their classic jumper in all home matches, bar maybe matches against Collingwood.

 

[jle101]

The AFL reserves comp is starting to form with that eastern seaboard league. I'd hope we'd take part in that down the line with our Prison Bars jumper and Alberton home games. The SANFL rules we have are limiting our players development so much so that we have a development coach on our list.

That's an interesting notion. Clearly Collingwood are still in all likelihood going to kick up a stink about it, but if the AFL was to create a nation-wide reserves competition then it can't necessarily be said that Port should change their colours/jumper design because they applied to join a new league. The PA/C'wood clash would be the only one of its kind either.

 

[Pappagallo]

Yeah, I could have guessed that concept wouldn't fly with 99.9% of Port fans, was just offering my 2c worth. As a Carlton supporter, I feel we have a timeless jumper design much in the same vein as Port's PB's, but when we take to the field with our white, gold, or even light blue clash jumpers I don't see them as "desecrations". But at the same time I fully understand that we at least have the luxury of wearing our traditional jumper design at home.

I'm all for Port wearing the PB's & also dislike how the V/AFL has being disrespecting the history of Australian Football outside of its own league. If it were up to me I'd let them wear their classic jumper in all home matches, bar maybe matches against Collingwood.

Would permanently changing Carlton’s home guernsey from navy to royal blue be considered desecration? Because that’s the analogous situation to the one you proposed with the silver Prison Bars, not a handful of clash jumpers.

If we were able to where the original PBs then white/gold/light blue variations of it for clash duties would be more acceptable. Certainly not my preference as we already have many chevron guernseys that can be used, but acceptable in the context.

 

[Fizzler]

You’d expect them to be strongly against it though. Weird!

Yeah, same design in similar colours. Whereas with Collingwood and the PBs it’s a completely different design I’m the same colours but the division of colours is so different so Collingwood being way more opposed is just odd.

We’ve already worn the original Prison Bars 5 times in the AFL. There was no need to compromise the design on any of these occasions and there’ll be no need in the future. We just want to do the same thing more often.

Furthermore, the supposed “contract” that has banned us from wearing the Bars didn’t stop these 5 instances from occuring, hence why I’m sceptical that it even exists.

 

[parano1a]

Would permanently changing Carlton’s home guernsey from navy to royal blue be considered desecration? Because that’s the analogous situation to the one you proposed with the silver Prison Bars, not a handful of clash jumpers.

Carlton isn't a new team joining the SANFL, they have been part of the VFL/AFL competition since 1897 so this is not a good analogy.

 

[parano1a]

Furthermore, the supposed “contract” that has banned us from wearing the Bars didn’t stop these 5 instances from occuring, hence why I’m sceptical that it even exists.

The contract had provisions for exemptions for it to be worn during designated heritage rounds or historical commemorative occasions, nobody is denying that.

 

[Pappagallo]

Carlton isn't a new team joining the SANFL, they have been part of the VFL/AFL competition since 1897 so this is not a good analogy.

This has nothing to do with what we were discussing. Go back and read it again.

 

[Fizzler]

The contract had provisions for exemptions for it to be worn during designated heritage rounds or historical commemorative occasions, nobody is denying that.

1. Heritage Round doesn’t exist
2. We were denied in 2014 to wear our 1914 jumper to commemorate an undefeated season and winning the Championship of Australia.
We are consistently shafted by the AFL on the topic of our heritage and jumper (bar the 5 instances we somehow got to wear the jumper) where even this year they tried to say we were founded in 1996 so that we couldn’t wear the jumper. The provisions for exemption can’t be set in stone when the circumstances of the league in 2020 are so different to those of 2007 and we are often denied to even celebrate that unless we fight it. How is that fair?

 

[its been done]

Geelong literally did not care that we were going to wear the blue and white hoops this season which are the exact same design as their jumper but just lighter. The club chose not to wear it for two reasons, one being covid and two being that they didn’t want to muddy the focus from the prison bars.

2 reasons there
1. Port's first guernsey used Sky Blue (or close to it), not Navy Blue
2. Geelong wore Red shirts early on in their existence, especially just after they were founded because according to footyjumpers.com; "After a few games Red was chosen as too many other clubs also wore Blue"

Later on during 1860 they switched to Red jumpers


It wasn't until 1863 that the first Navy and White guernsey (aka shirt) appeared (a inverse of this would be a good alternate guernsey these days) but this was short lived and they went back to Red jumpers as above in 1865 before going to white jumpers in 1872 until the 1st version of the Navy and White hoops appeared in 1876.


Closing statement, Geelong wouldn't and appear to not really care if Port wear Sky Blue and White hoops unless if Port were to wear it against them since as we know already, there's no PI clash guernseys available and even then it would still clash a bit

 

[El_Scorcho]

The contract had provisions for exemptions for it to be worn during designated heritage rounds or historical commemorative occasions, nobody is denying that.

If there was a contract, Eddie would have wheeled it out 2 decades ago. It doesn't exist.

This is purely at the discretion of the AFL. Eventually they'll yield to our pressure.

 

[jle101]

Would permanently changing Carlton’s home guernsey from navy to royal blue be considered desecration? Because that’s the analogous situation to the one you proposed with the silver Prison Bars, not a handful of clash jumpers.

If we were able to where the original PBs then white/gold/light blue variations of it for clash duties would be more acceptable. Certainly not my preference as we already have many chevron guernseys that can be used, but acceptable in the context.

If Carlton's colours were changed tomorrow, completely randomly, then it would be absurd, of course. However, if it was done in the context of a situation things might be different.

With the advent of colour TV in 1975, Fitzroy changed from its colours of maroon, navy blue & white to red, royal blue & yellow. The club would continue to play in this colour scheme for the final 20 years of its V/AFL existence. Likewise, the Demons traded in its navy blue for royal blue, though Melbourne would eventually revert back to its traditional navy blue sometime in the 80's.

The Brisbane Bears initially competed in brown & yellow up until 1989, when it then changed to cerise & yellow to avoid an obvious clash with Hawthorn. Granted, the Bears didn't have 100+ years of tradition associated with its jumper, but is another example of a team changing its colours in relatively recent times.

The context of Port's situation is that they were shafted by both the SANFL & the all-powerful AFL & forced to change its identity prior to joining the new league. The fact that Port needed to change its look was a reality, a bitter pill for fans to swallow, sure, but a change that I'm sure you guys realised had to be made out of necessity. Had Port opted for a PB's jumper with alternate colours back in 1997, you guys would have by now almost a quarter of a century's worth of history as well as 1x flag with such a jumper.

Once again, I'm not trying to tell you, or any other Port fan how to think, I'm just putting it out there. Had the shoe been on the other foot & Carlton joined the SANFL, morphing into the navy greens, for example, I personally wouldn't have a problem with the CFC monogram appearing on the team's new green jumper. Then again, maybe other Blues fans might think differently.

 

[jle101]

If there was a contract, Eddie would have wheeled it out 2 decades ago. It doesn't exist.

This is purely at the discretion of the AFL. Eventually they'll yield to our pressure.

I doubt it exists also. As far I know there was no such concept as "Heritage round" when PA & the AFL were negotiating circa 1995/1996.

 

[Liam Boy]

That's an interesting notion. Clearly Collingwood are still in all likelihood going to kick up a stink about it, but if the AFL was to create a nation-wide reserves competition then it can't necessarily be said that Port should change their colours/jumper design because they applied to join a new league. The PA/C'wood clash would be the only one of its kind either.

i don't accept the "port joined a new league" argument. their only choice to avoid becoming a glorified reserves side in their own state was to apply to join the AFL, no state league club asked the VFL to expand and essentially steal their primary market, Port did the only thing a proud club could. They shouldn't have to compromise their identity because their hand was forced.

 

[Pappagallo]

If Carlton's colours were changed tomorrow, completely randomly, then it would be absurd, of course. However, if it was done in the context of a situation things might be different.

With the advent of colour TV in 1975, Fitzroy changed from its colours of maroon, navy blue & white to red, royal blue & yellow. The club would continue to play in this colour scheme for the final 20 years of its V/AFL existence. Likewise, the Demons traded in its navy blue for royal blue, though Melbourne would eventually revert back to its traditional navy blue sometime in the 80's.

The Brisbane Bears initially competed in brown & yellow up until 1989, when it then changed to cerise & yellow to avoid an obvious clash with Hawthorn. Granted, the Bears didn't have 100+ years of tradition associated with its jumper, but is another example of a team changing its colours in relatively recent times.

The context of Port's situation is that they were shafted by both the SANFL & the all-powerful AFL & forced to change its identity prior to joining the new league. The fact that Port needed to change its look was a reality, a bitter pill for fans to swallow, sure, but a change that I'm sure you guys realised had to be made out of necessity. Had Port opted for a PB's jumper with alternate colours back in 1997, you guys would have by now almost a quarter of a century's worth of history as well as 1x flag with such a jumper.

Once again, I'm not trying to tell you, or any other Port fan how to think, I'm just putting it out there. Had the shoe been on the other foot & Carlton joined the SANFL, morphing into the navy greens, for example, I personally wouldn't have a problem with the CFC monogram appearing on the team's new green jumper. Then again, maybe other Blues fans might think differently.

You need to keep going in that scenario where you become the navy greens. People are annoyed about it and for the next 25 years they still want to wear your original navy blue guernsey. You even get to do it 4 or 5 times, which you had to fight tooth and nail for, and you’d like to wear it more. Do you reckon a royal blue guernsey would suffice after all this?

As far as compromises go we’ve already been there done that. We’re not doing it again.

 

[parano1a]

no state league club asked the VFL to expand and essentially steal their primary market, Port did the only thing a proud club could.

Glenelg, Norwood, Claremont, West Perth etc decided to instead stay in their respective state leagues and retain their traditional identity and colours. Nobody forced Port to join the AFL.

 

[RossFC]

Glenelg, Norwood, Claremont, West Perth etc decided to instead stay in their respective state leagues and retain their traditional identity and colours. Nobody forced Port to join the AFL.

Norwood actually put in a joint AFL bid with Sturt to be the Norwood Double Blue Legs.

 

[bomberclifford]

Norwood actually put in a joint AFL bid with Sturt to be the Norwood Double Blue Legs.

Glenelg were part of The Conglomerate too, IIRC.

 

[Pappagallo]

Glenelg were part of The Conglomerate too, IIRC.

Lol every single SANFL club tried to get out in one form or another. The submissions for the second licence were Port, Norwood-Sturt, Glenelg-South and “The Cartel” (North, West, Centrals and WWT).

 

[bomberclifford]

Lol every single SANFL club tried to get out in one form or another. The submissions for the second licence were Port, Norwood-Sturt, Glenelg-South and “The Cartel” (North, West, Centrals and WWT).

The Cartel. That’s the thing I was trying to remember. Basically a “leftovers“ bid.

What a bunch of campaigners.

 

[Fizzler]

The Cartel. That’s the thing I was trying to remember. Basically a “leftovers“ bid.

What a bunch of campaigners.

Doesn’t the story go that Port came in with suitcases and suitcases full of documents, while the Cartel came in with a manila folder lol

 

[Fizzler]

Nobody forced Port to join the AFL.

Let me put it this way, let’s say you’re walking down the street and someone holding a knife says “give me your wallet”. Obviously you’d give them the wallet right? You weren’t forced to give it to them, you just knew it’d be in your best interests to give them the wallet so you don’t get injured or die. You start to think, “hmm, I could really use that wallet, that had my money in it and all my cards” so you call the police and tell them about it because you know theft is illegal. You’d feel pretty disheartened if they just turned you down by saying “nah, you gave it to him”.

Now we’ll switch the terminology around.

Let’s say your club is in a dying league and a league promising to save you from irrelevancy says “give up your jumper”. Obviously you’d give up the jumper right? You weren’t forced to give it up, you just knew it’d be in your best interests to give up the jumper so you don’t become irrelevant or die off. You start to think, “hmm, we should get to wear that jumper, we won so many premierships in it and it’s the highest selling merch item in the league” so you call the AFL and ask them about it because you know it should be on the away team to resolve jumper clashes. You’d feel pretty disheartened if they just turned you down by saying “nah, you gave it up yourself”.

It’s the same concept yet apparently it’s us bitching about the jumper we “chose to give up” and some even suggest we sold our souls to join the league. It’s not like that, it’s more comparable to having your wallet stolen.

 

[Fizzler]

Also I’m just going to add, I hate the implication that we wanted to get rid of the prison bars in 90s. That was a time before clash jumpers were commonplace, in 2020 it’s very possible to just wear a clash jumper, like we already do vs Collingwood and they do vs us.

Prison Bars 2022 baby, won’t die easily on this one ever.

 

[Heardy_101]

This debate is why I feel Gold Coast should have been told "sorry but there's already a team with red, blue and gold in the League."

Same difference, right?

 

[barrackers]

This debate is why I feel Gold Coast should have been told "sorry but there's already a team with red, blue and gold in the League."

Same difference, right?

Adelaide and GC share colours, but even someone with a passing interest in footy wouldn't confuse their jumper designs. The same cannot be said for Collingwood and the bars. It would confusing for some people who wouldn't be able to distinguish the intricacies of a line across the chest and solid black above.

Despite the red v maroon colour difference it would have been sensible however for GC to have a primary jumper design that doesn't clash with BL ditto GWS and Sydney. With local rivalries likely to be manufactured having both sides able to wear their primary jumper would have been preferable. Both GC and GWS could have chosen the same colours in a different design and they'd be no clash with BL/Syd. Eg. GC mostly gold, which no club has and GWS more charcoal. That said sky blue would have been a better choice for GWS given their logo suggests representing NSW.

 

[barrackers]

Let me put it this way, let’s say you’re walking down the street and someone holding a knife says “give me your wallet”. Obviously you’d give them the wallet right? You weren’t forced to give it to them, you just knew it’d be in your best interests to give them the wallet so you don’t get injured or die. You start to think, “hmm, I could really use that wallet, that had my money in it and all my cards” so you call the police and tell them about it because you know theft is illegal. You’d feel pretty disheartened if they just turned you down by saying “nah, you gave it to him”.

Now we’ll switch the terminology around.

Let’s say your club is in a dying league and a league promising to save you from irrelevancy says “give up your jumper”. Obviously you’d give up the jumper right? You weren’t forced to give it up, you just knew it’d be in your best interests to give up the jumper so you don’t become irrelevant or die off. You start to think, “hmm, we should get to wear that jumper, we won so many premierships in it and it’s the highest selling merch item in the league” so you call the AFL and ask them about it because you know it should be on the away team to resolve jumper clashes. You’d feel pretty disheartened if they just turned you down by saying “nah, you gave it up yourself”.

It’s the same concept yet apparently it’s us bitching about the jumper we “chose to give up” and some even suggest we sold our souls to join the league. It’s not like that, it’s more comparable to having your wallet stolen.

If someone holding a knife said "give me your wallet". There's a myriad of factors I'd consider before simply handing it over whether it contains cash or not. Without much thought - the age/size/physique/gender of the person, their appearance and demeanour, are they intoxicated, the environment/location that we're in, what other options I have available eg. can I out run them or disperse into a building/crowd, the size of the knife and whether I knew the person or not eg. if I knew them I may have other legal options available.

The same with PA agreeing to give up rights to B&W and the magpie. You wouldn't give up that right without considering a heap of factors and engaging legal advice. That they gave up both suggests they recognised there was an issue. This issue could be anything... possibly legal/trademark or maybe simply too much similarity. Without being privy to it we all can only guess why PA gave both up.