Society/Culture Prison: It doesn't work.
- Thread starter Teffy
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- Oct 9, 2003
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Welcome to the wonderful world of Teffy.
Where there are no laws, no prisons and everyone lives in a socialist utopia.
As for education programs - well I would have thought we have plenty already. You would have to be half *ed to not know that drugs and alcohol are potentially dangerous when used excessively. Every kid knows that by age 12.
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Every kid also knows that excessive consumption of fast food is also potentially dangerous, but that hasn't stemmed obesity and other related illnesses.
Legalise the drugs, the prisons empty and drug related crime virtually ceases to exist.
The illegality of drugs creates far more criminals than the use of the drugs themselves.
Who is referring to drug education specifically anyway?
"Education" doesn't strictly refer to harm minimisation. I'm talking about giving people, that are generally from a lower socio/economic background, the opportunity to get a decent penal sponsored education that consists of more than lawn mowing and kitchen preparation work.
Legalise the drugs, the prisons empty and drug related crime virtually ceases to exist.
The illegality of drugs creates far more criminals than the use of the drugs themselves.
Who is referring to drug education specifically anyway?
"Education" doesn't strictly refer to harm minimisation. I'm talking about giving people, that are generally from a lower socio/economic background, the opportunity to get a decent penal sponsored education that consists of more than lawn mowing and kitchen preparation work.
- Oct 9, 2003
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Nobody is in prison for the crime of using drugs. I defy you to name one person whose sole charge is 'use of drugs' who is currently in an Australian jail.
Most of the drug related offenders are in there for assaults, thefts etc etc. Drug prices would most probably remain the same or be higher (you have to factor in costs in the supply chain such as GST, insurance, transport, packaging etc - would basically be marked up like cigarettes are.) so users would still need to find the dollars somewhere. And given they are unlikely to be working full time, then the lure of easy money would remain.
As for your thoughts on 'education'. What specifically do you have in mind?
Or is this the usual general airy-fairy socialist nonsense that sounds good but has no basis in reality.
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You presume that everyone who is sentenced to prison is capable of re education and rehabilitation. Hate to disappoint you but it's not possible.
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No, that is your presumption.
- Oct 9, 2003
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So guys like Matthew Johnson, Bilal Skaf, Ivan Milat, the Anita Cobby killers, Bega Schoolgirl killers are capable of rehabilitation?
hayes
Brownlow Medallist
I don't think anybody convicted of murder should be rehabilitated. Whether or not they can be should be irrelevant because they've taken one or multiple lives which has a massive effect on a lot of people and they should pay for that. They don't get locked up for long enough in this country but that's a separate issue.
I do think that jail should be there as a deterrent for committing crimes though.
I do think that jail should be there as a deterrent for committing crimes though.
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- #9
Of course, there is no such charge as "use of drugs".
Your constant picking apart of the fine print only serves to highlight your ignorance.
Let's see what the stats state:
Instances of combined theft and possession amphetamine charges: 3.1%
Instances of combined assault and possession amphetamine charges: 0%
Instances of combined theft and possession cannabis charges: 3.0%
Instances of combined assault and possession cannabis charges: 2.6%
Instances of combined theft and possession ecstasy charges: 0%
Instances of combined assault and possession ecstasy charges: 1.7%
Instances of combined theft and possession amphetamine charges: 8.2%
Instances of combined assault and possession amphetamine charges: 2.7%
Instances of combined theft and trafficking amphetamine charges: 11.4%
Instances of combined assault and trafficking amphetamine charges: 0%
Instances of combined theft and trafficking ecstasy charges: 4.8%
Instances of combined assault and trafficking ecstasy charges: 0%
Instances of combined theft and trafficking cannabis charges: 16%
Instances of combined assault and trafficking cannabis charges: 0%
Instances of combined theft and trafficking heroin charges: 14.4%
Instances of combined assault and trafficking heroin charges: 4.8%
Instances of combined theft and commercial trafficking charges: 19.3%*
Instances of combined assault and commercial trafficking charges: 0%
Instances of combined theft and large commercial trafficking charges: 2.9%
Instances of combined assault and large commercial trafficking charges: 0%
http://sentencingcouncil.vic.gov.au/page/about-sentencing/sentencing-statistics/sentencing-snapshots
The theft stats would definitely decline through legalisation, and all the assaults referenced where assaults on police which would also disappear via legalisation.
* Mostly related to theft of electricity in grow houses.
Hilarious.
What do you expect the freight costs to be on a 10 mg dose of morphine?
GST? Are you stating that the government is responsible for criminality due to taxation strategies? You might actually get me to agree on that.
University style education.
I believe education has more influence on reducing recidivism than any other strategy.
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- #10
Do you think that constantly resorting to extremist examples actually serves to strengthen your argument?
It just makes you look stupid.
There are over 30,000 people incarcerated in Australia.
Aside from comedic value, you have nothing of any real quality to bring to this discussion. On to ignore you go.
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Hilarious.
What do you expect the freight costs to be on a 10 mg dose of morphine?
GST? Are you stating that the government is responsible for criminality due to taxation strategies? You might actually get me to agree on that.
You seem to be wildly naive on this.
Government is not going to set the prices low as to encourage use. It will be taxed to the hilt just like cigarettes and alcohol. Cigs are now what $20 for a packet of $30. Do you think a cigarette costs $0.66 to make?
Of course, it doesn't.
So the prices will be exactly the same if not higher. Drug addicts will stay need money to keep supplied. Where do you think its going to come from?
I'm still not sure what you are getting at - is it that criminals are sentenced to a university style education rather than prison.
Do you have any idea how stupid most criminals are? They would be hard pressed sitting through an hour of year 10 English, let alone a university type course.
Taylor
Community Leader
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- #12
Drug production as an open commercial enterprise is not expensive. You can make it in your shed while you sleep.
It's be threat of the law that cuts most "mum and dad" investors out of the market. The risk is too high and those with the stones to offer the good for sale know it, so they can charge whatever they like.
Even if the government adds a tax and standards testing, it's cheaper than petrol to produce, cheaper than milk even.
It's be threat of the law that cuts most "mum and dad" investors out of the market. The risk is too high and those with the stones to offer the good for sale know it, so they can charge whatever they like.
Even if the government adds a tax and standards testing, it's cheaper than petrol to produce, cheaper than milk even.
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- #13
The authorities seem to be failing badly on that count.
- Oct 9, 2003
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It would be about the same price as cigarettes to make, correct?
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I don't know how old you are but you seem to be under the impression that all people are inherently good.
Criminality will always exist just as stupidity will always exist.
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- #16
Regulated usage would require manufacture/cultivation to occur in a regulated sterile environment.
We still need to keep these things away from minors.
We seem to be getting caught up solely in drug related matters, this thread has broader implications.
- Apr 1, 2008
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As you have eloquently evidenced?
Prison sentences have a number of functions: deterrent, confinement (from society), and rehabilitation. After all, it is called Corrective Services.
Teffy has a point. If crime is only about punishment then take a step back two centuries or more. Hardened criminals often resist re-education and so the confinement is justified. Most offenders aren't necessarily recidivists. Some are in for heinous crimes though, while others just make an error of judgement or circumstance. For those, it is wise to turn them into productive citizens again. So why not use prison as a positive rehabilitation experience? Under the current scheme, some actually become hardened and hone the crime skills. If we remove the incentive and resources to offer another alternative, we condemn prisons to almost being criminal factories.
Education is the key part of rehabilitation. Works for most.
So, who here isn't dissuaded from committing crimes by the prospect of spending time in prison?
I for one, am dissuaded.
I for one, am dissuaded.
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BTW, these stats cover the years ~2004 to ~2009.
I assume they would be in the interquartile range.
- Oct 9, 2003
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As you have eloquently evidenced?
Prison sentences have a number of functions: deterrent, confinement (from society), and rehabilitation. After all, it is called Corrective Services.
Teffy has a point. If crime is only about punishment then take a step back two centuries or more. Hardened criminals often resist re-education and so the confinement is justified. Most offenders aren't necessarily recidivists. Some are in for heinous crimes though, while others just make an error of judgement or circumstance. For those, it is wise to turn them into productive citizens again. So why not use prison as a positive rehabilitation experience? Under the current scheme, some actually become hardened and hone the crime skills. If we remove the incentive and resources to offer another alternative, we condemn prisons to almost being criminal factories.
Education is the key part of rehabilitation. Works for most.
You seem to be under the impression that Australian jails don't offer education facilities already to their prisoners.
They do.
You and Teffy also seem to be under the misguided impression that Australian jails are a replica of those seen in America's Hardest Prisons or Oz.
They're not.
- Mar 18, 2011
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This. Also having a date with Bubba in the big den doesn't appeal to me too much.
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- #24
This doesn't happen as often as you'd think in Australian jails. It's more of a punishment for being a rat etc. The biggest deterrent in Aus jails is the boredom.
I do think certain crimes should not be punishable by jail such as graffiti and shoplifting unless there has been serious re offending.
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