The Law Privately Owned Prisons

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Clay Davis

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

You do realise that a free market society doesn't allow fraud, extortion or money laundering right? That would still be against the law in a free market society.
Who says the laws against fraud would be any different?

If the prison system was state owned, and excluded from the profit motive, how likely is it that these kids would have had their liberty taken from them via fraudulent behaviour?
 

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Who says the laws against fraud would be any different?

If the prison system was state owned, and excluded from the profit motive, how likely is it that these kids would have had their liberty taken from them via fraudulent behaviour?
I'm failing to see your point.
Fraud is possible under any economic system, it's not exclusive to a Free Market.
 

Clay Davis

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

I'm failing to see your point.
Fraud is possible under any economic system, it's not exclusive to a Free Market.
I guess you're just a bit thick.

Private prisons make better profits the more prisoners they receive. Therefore, it is in their best interests to encourage more criminals into the system. They may do this via a number of ways. One might be bribing judges to give harsher penalties for lesser crimes.

A state-owned prison makes no profits, and therefore is not driven to encourage more criminals. Such a situation as described above is less likely to happen in a state run and owned system.
 

medusala

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

I guess you're just a bit thick.

Private prisons make better profits the more prisoners they receive. Therefore, it is in their best interests to encourage more criminals into the system.
Private systems generally have penalty clauses related to recidivism rates.
 

blackcat

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Private systems generally have penalty clauses related to recidivism rates.
Meds, I believe this is an example of the phenomena that this profit sector is potentially liable to.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/17/penn_judges_plead_guilty_to_taking
AMY GOODMAN: An unprecedented case of judicial corruption is unfolding in Pennsylvania. Several hundred families have filed a class-action lawsuit against two former judges who have pleaded guilty to taking bribes in return for placing youths in privately owned jails. Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan are said to have received $2.6 million for ensuring that juvenile suspects were jailed in prisons operated by the companies Pennsylvania Child Care and a sister company, Western Pennsylvania Child Care. Some of the young people were jailed over the objections of their probation officers. An estimated 5,000 juveniles have been sentenced by Ciavarella since the scheme started in 2002.
In addition to the jailing of the youths, the judges also admitted to helping “facilitate” the construction of private jails. The US attorney for the Middle District of Pennsylvania, Martin Carlson, unveiled the charges last month.
 

bit_pattern

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

^^ LOL, pwnage! I have heard about this but had forgotten about in context of this discussion (about which it has to do with the ABC I have nfi, but there you go! :p)


Mate, after the events of recent months, I think you'll find most Western governments now regard the nutbars of the Austrian school the same they do the flat earthers and the La Rouchians.

Which is unfair to the La Rouchians, as their economic predictions have been more accurate than the Austrians.
Climate models are looking pretty darn good in comparison! :D
 

blackcat

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

^^ LOL, pwnage! I have heard about this but had forgotten about in context of this discussion (about which it has to do with the ABC I have nfi, but there you go! :p)
also, on the privately owned jail industry, they are playing the same game as the Arms Industry, they are placing jails in strategic locations, bringing a boon to local economies. I think national system jails have meant that individuals are now being jailed crossing multiple state lines, not contiguous states, or within a few hours drive.

Really helps with those Senate votes for bills to facilitate mass privatisation of this industry. Think the players who do some of the refugee complexes here, are big hitters in the states.

One female teenager got something like 6 months, for a Myspace post against her teacher, and slapping one of her friends (at that time). 6 months! Delicious that Murdoch via Myspace was involved in this little microcosm of dystopia.
 

Chief

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Private systems generally have penalty clauses related to recidivism rates.
Which means they look for turnover, perhaps even bribing judges NOT to lock up repeat offenders? Or maybe the penalties aren't big enough to discourage the corruption?

There was another piece on private prisons in one county bringing in money by colluding with the local cops, picking up just about anyone with an accent and claiming they were illegal immigrants. I don't remember if the incorrectly imprisoned people got any sort of justice in the end.

When the financial incentive is to lock people up for longer periods, you can bet more people will be locked up for longer - whether deserved or not.The private jails argument probably deserves its own thread.
 

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

I guess you're just a bit thick.

Private prisons make better profits the more prisoners they receive. Therefore, it is in their best interests to encourage more criminals into the system. They may do this via a number of ways. One might be bribing judges to give harsher penalties for lesser crimes.

A state-owned prison makes no profits, and therefore is not driven to encourage more criminals. Such a situation as described above is less likely to happen in a state run and owned system.
And do you remember when we were talking about my beliefs as an ideal which would involve voluntary funding of governments main functions; police, defense and courts. Prisons are a logical extension of courts (any part of the judicial system that involves protecting the rights of individuals from force or coercion is a legitimate part of government). So no Gravy, I don't actually argue(I'm talking about an ideal here) for private prisons. I think I differ from Meds on this one.

But for the sake of argument...
Private prisons should have government oversight to ensure things like fraud don't happen. Because again, fraud is against the law.
I also still question the implication that state-owned prisons are somehow free from corruption.
 

medusala

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

When the financial incentive is to lock people up for longer periods, you can bet more people will be locked up for longer - whether deserved or not.The private jails argument probably deserves its own thread.
Debatable Chief because of very high recidivism rates. I would suggest that they would need a new source of inmates rather than reoffenders.

What of the Guildford Four, Birmingham Six etc? Plenty of people were wrongly locked up in plenty of countries (and far more in statist countries) without private prisons.

Nonetheless corruption will happen. Take NSW and labor pollies and building permits. Diabolical. Does anyone suggest that the construction industry be nationalised?
 

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Chief

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Debatable Chief because of very high recidivism rates. I would suggest that they would need a new source of inmates rather than reoffenders.
Hence my reference to the scam of locking up people as illegal immigrants when they were not. According to the piece I read, there were huge numbers of people who just disappeared into this system, with relatives literally begging at the gates to get access, or even find out if their family members were being held.

Where there is money, there's someone there to scam it.
 

blackcat

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Meds in the Penn "Youth Corrections" they were holding those juveniles longer and longer and longer. The judges would sentence them longer.

Can't necessarily extrapolate that writ large, but hey, that was the profit motive, and the kick backs to these judges and bureaucrats, the political donations, etc. It is murky.

Why does one need to privatise this industry? Efficiency? I dont buy it. It is cronyism and corruption/fraud.
 

medusala

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

Where there is money, there's someone there to scam it.
This does not just relate to private prisons though. Another well known example is councils and parking fines ie employees on commission. You will often also hear that police are heavily incentivised to hand out a number of speeding fines. It was well known that council employees in Melbourne were taking bribes re zoning of brothels. Public servants have also long been sellers of privacy data.

Misuse of funds will typically be far greater when spent by the government.

Private operators will fleece the govt (particularly under PPPs) however the govt is able to place service standards on private operators which it wont do on itself.
 

Chief

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So putting a profit motive on incarceration is automatically OK because governments screw up, too.

This isn't about a zoning bribe or an unfair parking ticket.

This is about people in prison. They'd be happy to gripe over a parking ticket because it would mean they had a car. That they were allowed to drive around. In freedom.

Corruption is everywhere. So what? Hundreds (maybe thousands) of people are wrongly imprisoned just to make a profit. So what?


Service standards - bullshit. Soon as you are in breach, you just sue another party (or the government) to get the heat off you.
 

medusala

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So putting a profit motive on incarceration is automatically OK because governments screw up, too.
That is not why I am saying. A profit motive per se wont lead to worse behaviour.

Corruption is everywhere. So what? Hundreds (maybe thousands) of people are wrongly imprisoned just to make a profit. So what?
You are going to base your argument on one example? There are 11 private prisons in the UK, cant recall it being an issue here ie corruption. Even the hardest of hard left commentators doesnt mention an example

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/03/prison-population-titan-jails

Service standards - bullshit. Soon as you are in breach, you just sue another party (or the government) to get the heat off you.
Wont work if the contract is any good.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=azjqx4gD95b0

Jan. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Tube Lines Ltd., a unit of Spain’s Ferrovial SA, lost a 327 million-pound ($530 million) compensation claim against London Underground, Expansion reported, citing the adjudicator. Tube Lines, which has a contract to maintain and upgrade track on the U.K. capital’s subway system, claimed that London Underground should assume the excess of costs over what was initially budgeted, the newspaper said
 

SweetLeftFoot

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Here in Scotland, a newly opened private prison is seeing rioting that doesn't happen in the state establishments.

Reason?

Kalyx hires as few, as cheap staff as possible.

And now, because they get fined everytime contraband is found, they do less and less searches and pay less attention, which means there's a thriving drug trade which all that entails.

Private prisons are a joke.
 

medusala

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Private prisons are a joke.
Why? They are all inspected by the government and held to the same standards. They are liable to penalties and loss of contracts (if only others in the public service could be fired for rubbish service)

Monbiot calls it a revolting trade in human lives.

What a tool. May as well argue for a ban on private GPs because of Harold Shipman

oooh all those GPS making money out of sick people. How disgusting.
 

nut

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I dont understand Private prisons.... the Tax payer still pays.. for the prison but there is added cost of the profit for the private company...
 

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