The Law Privately Owned Prisons

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blackcat

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i think i was listening to a uncle Phillip Adams Latenight podcast from the back catalogue, and de tocquville was raised. I have not read him, i only know the cliff notes, i think he pre-dated Dickens by half a century. But he forecast something like this i think. sh*t, gotta get it out from the library now.

I think it may have been BHL or bernie henry levi, an insufferable dilettante philosopher, in the visage of Burnside/GeoffRobertson. Think it was around the 2007ish French elections, or when the protests from the banlieus blew up in paris two years before that and sarkozt was going off his nut

how the heck do you spell de tocquville anyway
 

blackcat

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!


Meds, I believe this is an example of the phenomena that this profit sector is potentially liable to.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/17/penn_judges_plead_guilty_to_takingRe: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!

medusala said:
Private systems generally have penalty clauses related to recidivism rates.​
Meds, I believe this is an example of the phenomena that this profit sector is potentially liable to.
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/2/17/penn_judges_plead_guilty_to_taking
AMY GOODMAN: An unprecedented case of judicial corruption is unfolding in Pennsylvania. Several hundred families have filed a class-action lawsuit against two former judges who have pleaded guilty to taking bribes in return for placing youths in privately owned jails. Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan are said to have received $2.6 million for ensuring that juvenile suspects were jailed in prisons operated by the companies Pennsylvania Child Care and a sister company, Western Pennsylvania Child Care. Some of the young people were jailed over the objections of their probation officers. An estimated 5,000 juveniles have been sentenced by Ciavarella since the scheme started in 2002.
In addition to the jailing of the youths, the judges also admitted to helping “facilitate” the construction of private jails. The US attorney for the Middle District of Pennsylvania, Martin Carlson, unveiled the charges last month.​
medusala again:

http://blog.blacknews.com/2013/05/j...lling-kids-prison-system101.html#.Up0KrdIW2Sp

awaits for the ubiquitous response, not the systems, its the corrupt individuals. yeah, i recognise that. but you recognise they were enabled too. it would be a false dichotomy to come down on either side. wait, if you use the interwebz way back machine, can you ask dickens and de tocquville for their solution? SERCO all round?
 

Sydney Bloods

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There's also the other side which people don't notice right away.

Once the private sector started expanding in NSW, entitlements for correctional staff dropped.

This lead to an exodus of senior staff that refused to work in dangerous prison environments for as little as $19 an hour (as a flat rate I might add)

This also lead to a drop in recruitment standards because they found it hard to recruit sufficient numbers. There's currently a push in NSW to allow as many correctional officers positions as possible to be replaced by licensed security guards.
 

blackcat

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bloods, they should outsource the jobs to bangalore. call centre jeremy benthem panopticon 4tW.

need to add dickens and de tocquville to get my references up
 

Sydney Bloods

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I can't fathom how anyone would want private prisons, and I have been employed by and support the use of PMC's.

So far the only answer seems to be oh but cheaper to employ and sack a private sector worker for not performing.

Yet the public prisons continually out perform the private prisons

Who would have thought those with job security and good pay would out perform those that are paid fu** all and have no job security?
 

Pie eyed

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Privately owned prisons should be kept specifically for the owners of privately owned prisons, their board and office holders.
Capital punishment should be returned there too.
 

medusala

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If you think private prisons are bad see corruption in California with public prisons and unions.

Oh and of course, good old Carl just tripped and fell. Poor bugger.
 

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Sydney Bloods

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If you think private prisons are bad see corruption in California with public prisons and unions.

Oh and of course, good old Carl just tripped and fell. Poor bugger.
A key reason prisons need to remain public, in a public prison the worst case scenario would be the entire prison system is corrupt and actively covering it up to prevent mates being sacked and sent to jail.

In a private prison the worst case scenario is the entire prison system is corrupt and actively covering it up to prevent mates being sacked and sent to jail and protect profits.

A private prison doesn't reduce corruption it adds another layer.
One of the reasons public prisons are safer is because there's a push to report things that go wrong so we can learn from it and improve things from there.

The private system things go unreported because it becomes a business they don't want hear things that will damage profits, anybody who's worked in business understands this (how many of us have sat in a meeting and had to argue and hound for months to get things approved?) it's the cost of doing business. You have to prove there's a benefit to the company, usually not in the long run but a clear CBA.

Add to that environment the threat from the politicians to seize back prisons that are either too unsafe or not holding enough prisoner's.

And you only have extra push factors to cover things up now it's not just about profits but actually jepodising the business and risk shutting it down.
 

blackcat

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Sydney Bloods your premise is that profits are the driver of the corruption, and obfuscation of the operations. what is the driver of the corruption, and ensuing obfuscation and cover-up in public operations?

what your have done, is conflate the end product with the cause. profit is not the cause in neither. It is incompetence. In both scenarios, we have cover-ups to hide their back. One will have an added effect of maintaining revenue flow, and if business competent, a profit.

But the profit is not the instigator of the misoperation and incompetence. it exists in both scenarios.
 

Sydney Bloods

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Sydney Bloods your premise is that profits are the driver of the corruption, and obfuscation of the operations. what is the driver of the corruption, and ensuing obfuscation and cover-up in public operations?

what your have done, is conflate the end product with the cause. profit is not the cause in neither. It is incompetence. In both scenarios, we have cover-ups to hide their back. One will have an added effect of maintaining revenue flow, and if business competent, a profit.

But the profit is not the instigator of the misoperation and incompetence. it exists in both scenarios.
Not the driver more of a push factor, corruption is the systemic cover up of misoperation and incompetence.

When profits are on the line cover up's are simply more likely to occur.
 

DivideandMultiply

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Crikey... I am not quite sure how to respond.

two reasons

1) efficiency
2) to decrease to power of public services unions which eat away at the fabric of democracy
But there is no evidence the private prison system in the US has led to increased efficiency and decreased costs. However it has seen the rise of the second greatest prison population in recorded existence, encouraged both widespread corruption of the judicial system and law enforcement, facilitated a new provider of slave labor, as well as presenting an ongoing human rights catastrophe.
 

Power Raid

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lol, long bow there

so in short, all of the US problems could be solved if they return prison operations and ownership to the government? or they simply wouldn't have had these issues if not for the privatisation? or both? or neither?
 

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