The Law Privately Owned Prisons

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clogged

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here, not after we have those sydney road brunswick protests about the abc radio woman getting raped and murdered by the dickhead on parole
I am opposed to the death penalty, but the way in which that essay is argued makes it hard not to feel persuaded by this sentence.

"If, in the popular imagination, the primary purpose of prisons is to keep us safe from (the vanishingly small number of) people like Charles Manson, then we should simply kill Charles Manson."
 

blackcat

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I am opposed to the death penalty, but the way in which that essay is argued makes it hard not to feel persuaded by this sentence.

"If, in the popular imagination, the primary purpose of prisons is to keep us safe from (the vanishingly small number of) people like Charles Manson, then we should simply kill Charles Manson."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflections_on_the_Guillotine
La vie de l'homme cesse d'être sacrée lorsque on croit utile de le tuer
 

Pie eyed

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lol, long bow there

so in short, all of the US problems could be solved if they return prison operations and ownership to the government? or they simply wouldn't have had these issues if not for the privatisation? or both? or neither?
Nah!
Admit they have lost the "war" on drugs, prohibit any Government organisation or affiliate from profiting in any way from the illegality of drugs and treat the issue as a health problem. True the drug addicts will have to take to break enter to pay for their medical expenses but that may force the US to provide a basic human necessity to it's citizens in Public Health Cover.
 

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medusala

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The biggest cover ups take place via the state. See thousands of people being killed by incompetence at the hands of the NHS. Good thing there was no profit motive there.

The state typically can't run anything competently. Why would one think that the prison system be any better?

If SERCO or G4S etc stuff something up, they can have their contracts taken off them / be financially penalised.

Stuff ups by the state go unpunished. Zero incentive to perform.
 

DivideandMultiply

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lol, long bow there

so in short, all of the US problems could be solved if they return prison operations and ownership to the government? or they simply wouldn't have had these issues if not for the privatisation? or both? or neither?
Not a long bow at all.

The profit motive has incentivised strict sentencing in some states, as the prisons have grown to create powerful local industries through the use of cheap labor and are represented by significant lobbying power. Level of remuneration by the state is often directly tied to percent of used capacity, thus state legislatures are pressured to be "tough" on certain crimes and political pressure is exerted on the judiciary when it comes to sentencing.

Not only have incarceration rates remained high, despite declining crime rates, but wholesale judicial and law enforcement corruption has been directly tied to the industry at both state and county level.

There is very little direct oversight as to how the prisons are run and the industry as a whole, as discussed in the quoted article by Clay, presents somewhat of a human rights disaster.

BTW, many of these prisons are less efficient and less cost effective than their public predecessors.

As for the highlighted, are you using it in place of reasoned argument? We are simply talking about the problems that have arisen due to widespread privatisation of the US prison system.
 

DivideandMultiply

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The state typically can't run anything competently. Why would one think that the prison system be any better?
It has been privatisation that wreaked havoc on the British public transport system. Likewise the complete dogs breakfast that has been privatisation of power utilities in Victoria.

It is a complete fallacy that privatisation equals lower costs and better outcomes.
 

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It has been privatisation that wreaked havoc on the British public transport system. Likewise the complete dogs breakfast that has been privatisation of power utilities in Victoria.

It is a complete fallacy that privatisation equals lower costs and better outcomes.
totally disagree otherwise the best system would be to nationalise more industry.​
There are so many benefits of privatisation including breaking down public service lobby groups that hold government to ransom, bankruptcy and better management system. There are plenty of where privatisation has failed for a variety of reasons including: poor contracting during the privatisation model, market for lemons and selecting the cheapest operator, privatising a business but still requiring public type systems, keeping public workers who feel disenfranchised, unions and bad or greedy management.​
These issues can be resolved by better contracting, changing culture and empowering good management. It really isn't that hard if people try.​
 

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TheBrownDog
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Nah!
Admit they have lost the "war" on drugs, prohibit any Government organisation or affiliate from profiting in any way from the illegality of drugs and treat the issue as a health problem. True the drug addicts will have to take to break enter to pay for their medical expenses but that may force the US to provide a basic human necessity to it's citizens in Public Health Cover.
Interesting angle

I personally think drugs are a huge problem in society. I am not anti-drugs but there is little argument that both illegal and prescription drugs aren't abused and don't cause social issues.

Personally, I would like to see heroin and other drugs freely available, in a smorgasbord type set up, in a centre 1000km NE of Kalgoorlie. There should be free transport to the centre with only two exits.........rehab or carried out.

That way, people who have lost control can live out there final days or years doing what the need to do under proper supervision and care and offering rehab to those that choose not to go through the other exit.

It would cost next to nothing as Australia is already the largest producer of legal heroin derivatives in the world.
 

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TheBrownDog
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It's not either/or. Somethings are better provided by private industry, others are better provided by the state. Often a mix of the two is good. Only the insanely ideological believe in a purity of system.
True, there have been some great state run enterprises like Australia Post (at least I think it is state run). That said, I don't see why a prison needs to be state run.

The issue highlighted by DivideandMultiply was the corruption by government, politicians and judges (all public officials) who are all conspiring to lock people up for the benefit of private enterprise.

This highlights the fact that it is not public or private that is the issue here. It seems like the power of lobby groups (in this case private enterprise) and public services unions are so powerful they can influence corrupt or weak officials.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/members/divideandmultiply.70392/
 

clogged

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True, there have been some great state run enterprises like Australia Post (at least I think it is state run). That said, I don't see why a prison needs to be state run.

The issue highlighted by DivideandMultiply was the corruption by government, politicians and judges (all public officials) who are all conspiring to lock people up for the benefit of private enterprise.

This highlights the fact that it is not public or private that is the issue here. It seems like the power of lobby groups (in this case private enterprise) and public services unions are so powerful they can influence corrupt or weak officials.
I am not sure how you reach the conclusion in second sentence bolded after what you stated immediately before that. If prisons lack profit motive then there is little desire of theirs to have more prisoners. There is less chance of people needlessly being sent to prison.

Prison should be a last resort for almost all offences. The system should be designed against putting people away unless they have committed the worst of crimes. A system where it is profitable to put more people prison should not exist.
 

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TheBrownDog
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I am not sure how you reach the conclusion in second sentence bolded after what you stated immediately before that. If prisons lack profit motive then there is little desire of theirs to have more prisoners. There is less chance of people needlessly being sent to prison.

Prison should be a last resort for almost all offences. The system should be designed against putting people away unless they have committed the worst of crimes. A system where it is profitable to put more people prison should not exist.
The corruption is not the lobby group rather the public officials perverting the course of justice
 

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TheBrownDog
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Corruption of public officials has happened since time immemorial - the system should be designed to guard against it.
Personally I would like to see all lobby groups (unions, private enterprise lobbies and environmental groups, professional institutes like accountants, medical etc) having to register and being accountable to the corporations act or similar code.
 

DivideandMultiply

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It's not either/or. Somethings are better provided by private industry, others are better provided by the state. Often a mix of the two is good. Only the insanely ideological believe in a purity of system.
This is my exact position. Critical amenities, health, welfare and policing/emergency services/defence should be in the hands of the state.

We almost have the mix right now, though Telstra really needs to be broken up to help with competition in the telecommunications industry.

We do seem to bungle privatisation though and go the more tentative route, which leads to government protected monopolies and consumer rorting.
 

blackcat

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Personally I would like to see all lobby groups (unions, private enterprise lobbies and environmental groups, professional institutes like accountants, medical etc) having to register and being accountable to the corporations act or similar code.
rent
medusala
hayek mises
#the_vons
#austrians n twitter tropez
 

Pie eyed

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Interesting angle

I personally think drugs are a huge problem in society. I am not anti-drugs but there is little argument that both illegal and prescription drugs aren't abused and don't cause social issues.

Personally, I would like to see heroin and other drugs freely available, in a smorgasbord type set up, in a centre 1000km NE of Kalgoorlie. There should be free transport to the centre with only two exits.........rehab or carried out.

That way, people who have lost control can live out there final days or years doing what the need to do under proper supervision and care and offering rehab to those that choose not to go through the other exit.

It would cost next to nothing as Australia is already the largest producer of legal heroin derivatives in the world.
What are the clinical repercussions of the use of clean heroin in controlled doses?
Any idea?
 

CLUBMEDhurst

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What are the clinical repercussions of the use of clean heroin in controlled doses?
Any idea?
That said, it appears that prescribing heroin
is feasible in specialist clinical settings, that it
succeeds in retaining people in treatment and
that there are health and social gains. Patients
improve in most areas – physical and mental
health are noticeably better, illicit drug use and
crime are reduced, and employment increases.
But problems are not eliminated. Individual
benefits have been identified in most studies,
but there are no data on community impact (e.g.
the overall effect on crime and drug scenes)
http://www.jrf.org.uk/sites/files/jrf/1859350836.pdf

I do recall a doctor working on Merseyside (or the Wirral, can't exactly remember the location) who was prescribing diamorphine, with resultant lowering of crime in the area.
 

Demonic Ascent

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Re: ABC to launch 24hr news channel - Murdoch declares warfare!



Private systems generally have penalty clauses related to recidivism rates.
They can't be a recidivist if they're locked up for life because their third strike was something as banal as stealing a donut.
 

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