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Mofra

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No it is not a false equivalence.

For socialism to work, you need a no excuses mentality for it to succeed. If one can't make it work from a family level, one can't possibly expect it to succeed at a village level. If villages can't make it work, then it doesn't work at a canton level and so forth until one reaches the sovereign.

Socialism only works from a bottom up. A top down approach leads to repression.
Are you conflating socialism and communism?

Socialism is compatible with democracy (e.g. the Scandanavian model), Communism is not.
Socialism is about equality of opportunity, communism is about equality of outcome (with the sneaky exception of party leaders and their cronies).
 

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TheBrownDog
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Are you conflating socialism and communism?

Socialism is compatible with democracy (e.g. the Scandanavian model), Communism is not.
Socialism is about equality of opportunity, communism is about equality of outcome (with the sneaky exception of party leaders and their cronies).
No confusion, please re read my post
 

Gethelred

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yes yes.....it's all too hard to take responsibility for oneself, one's own family and one's community
I'd be interested in you pointing out where precisely I said this.
let the government do it! that way we can blame them!
... or this.
how did relying upon our government work out for indigenous Australians? They stole their land and even their children. how did the government protect asian workers under our colonies? we federated on the pressure of unions and their hatred of yellow peril, enshrining racism in law and our constitution.
... or how this is related to socialism in any way whatsoever, beyond the barely bandaided on section at the end.
Leaving responsibility to others and government is accepting failure.
... and this is opinion. Yours, like everything else you've penned in this conversation.

You used a false equivalence, and you don't like the fact it got pointed out. I haven't said anything else on the subject here, except that treating an extended family as the same as government is a false equivalence.
 

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Mofra

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yes yes.....it's all too hard to take responsibility for oneself, one's own family and one's community

let the government do it! that way we can blame them!

how did relying upon our government work out for indigenous Australians? They stole their land and even their children. how did the government protect asian workers under our colonies? we federated on the pressure of unions and their hatred of yellow peril, enshrining racism in law and our constitution.

Leaving responsibility to others and government is accepting failure.
I don't build my own roads, or hospitals, or sewerage, or transmission lines or schools either.

The Indigenous Australians example is way off - when did they rely on their government to negotiate with the English?
 

Ned_Flanders

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I don't build my own roads, or hospitals, or sewerage, or transmission lines or schools either.

The Indigenous Australians example is way off - when did they rely on their government to negotiate with the English?
You're a dog's supporter. If you buy your own toot paper we are impressed
 

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TheBrownDog
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I don't build my own roads, or hospitals, or sewerage, or transmission lines or schools either.

The Indigenous Australians example is way off - when did they rely on their government to negotiate with the English?
these are all facts, regarding one building roads, hospitals, sewerage, transmission lines and schools but it irrelevant.

what was relevant was one must have a culture capable of sustaining socialism. Examples provided such as looking after ones family was the relevant bit you missed.

further the examples of indigenous folk is relevant, as it is just one example that governments can not be relied upon or trusted to do the right thing. Again that's why one must be proactive for socialism to be sustainable and governments to be accountable.
 

Mofra

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these are all facts, regarding one building roads, hospitals, sewerage, transmission lines and schools but it irrelevant.

what was relevant was one must have a culture capable of sustaining socialism. Examples provided such as looking after ones family was the relevant bit you missed.

further the examples of indigenous folk is relevant, as it is just one example that governments can not be relied upon or trusted to do the right thing. Again that's why one must be proactive for socialism to be sustainable and governments to be accountable.
So why hasn't the family unit descended into anarchy in Denmark or Sweden?

You've made a claim but haven't substantiated it. Why do you think having (for example) universal healthcare is somehow incompatible with a parent looking after their child? You'll need to flesh out your idea for us to discuss it properly.
 

Mofra

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yes, in countries that have the right culture

I feel some fail to see Australia has excellent social frameworks and a balance of socialism and capitalism that sees us as one of the most successful nations on the planet.
I don't think humans are so overwhelmingly different that some societies will never be bale to achieve some sort of comparable balance.
I understand some societies that undertake a rapid shift to a different style of governance in a short space of time have real issues (e.g. the Arab spring) but that's adjustment and change management rather than an inability to embrace some form of societal social net.
 

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TheBrownDog
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I don't think humans are so overwhelmingly different that some societies will never be bale to achieve some sort of comparable balance.
I understand some societies that undertake a rapid shift to a different style of governance in a short space of time have real issues (e.g. the Arab spring) but that's adjustment and change management rather than an inability to embrace some form of societal social net.
you only have to look at some people's reaction to participate for the dole. The idea that participation, despite being good for mental health, is rejected as a responsibility for social welfare is considered abhorrent.

sadly we will continue to let our most vulnerable rot away in our outer suburbs as we don't mandate ways of improving their income and finding ways for them to participate in society.
 

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TheBrownDog
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So why hasn't the family unit descended into anarchy in Denmark or Sweden?

You've made a claim but haven't substantiated it. Why do you think having (for example) universal healthcare is somehow incompatible with a parent looking after their child? You'll need to flesh out your idea for us to discuss it properly.
It's quite simple really.

If you have a culture that is conservative in nature, values family and owns up to responsibility; you have great foundations to build a socialist government. Why? because the electorate accept paying higher taxes as a responsibility and you have a culture that works hard not abuse the system.

We on the otherhand don't have the concept of shame, as you see in conservative cultures. Thus we don't have the same level of accountability to ourselves, our families and our community. Thus we are missing a vital ingredient for socialism to work.
 

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Mofra

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It's quite simple really.

If you have a culture that is conservative in nature, values family and owns up to responsibility; you have great foundations to build a socialist government. Why? because the electorate accept paying higher taxes as a responsibility and you have a culture that works hard not abuse the system.

We on the otherhand don't have the concept of shame, as you see in conservative cultures. Thus we don't have the same level of accountability to ourselves, our families and our community. Thus we are missing a vital ingredient for socialism to work.
That's a tenuous link at best IMO.
If anything, the successful models for social democracies are progressive societies moreso than conservative ones. The US is arguably the most conservative Western nation in the OECD and they're the least amenable to anything that could be branded as socialism (e.g. universal heathcare).
 

Snake_Baker

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That's a tenuous link at best IMO.
If anything, the successful models for social democracies are progressive societies moreso than conservative ones. The US is arguably the most conservative Western nation in the OECD and they're the least amenable to anything that could be branded as socialism (e.g. universal heathcare).
I can't get this logic.

If you go back to the starting line then the U.S. is miles ahead as a progressive staqte. Hell, I can own a firearm there without enduring the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition. How much more "progressive" do you wanna get?

U.S.Citizens have more individual rights than most other Western nations.
 

Mofra

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I can't get this logic.

If you go back to the starting line then the U.S. is miles ahead as a progressive staqte. Hell, I can own a firearm there without enduring the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition. How much more "progressive" do you wanna get?

U.S.Citizens have more individual rights than most other Western nations.
More progressive than Scandanavian nations?
Universal heathcare, a living minimum wage and universal access to education are better measures than simply gun rights.
 

Snake_Baker

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More progressive than Scandanavian nations?
Universal heathcare, a living minimum wage and universal access to education are better measures than simply gun rights.
My point is that "progressive" is shaped by a personal point of view and is not some ultimate truth.
 

Mofra

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My point is that "progressive" is shaped by a personal point of view and is not some ultimate truth.
We should ask PR to provide his definition then, as the relationship between conservatism and the likelihood of socialism being a success is his argument.

In my view, broad-ranging social measures are a far better indicator than access to a consumer good (firearms, although the argument is reversed if you substitute 'guns' for 'Kinder surprise')
 

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TheBrownDog
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That's a tenuous link at best IMO.
If anything, the successful models for social democracies are progressive societies moreso than conservative ones. The US is arguably the most conservative Western nation in the OECD and they're the least amenable to anything that could be branded as socialism (e.g. universal heathcare).
just because a culture is conservative in some aspects, does not mean the society will adopt socialism or better still adopt socialism with success. Without digressing too far on the US, it should be noted they were are far more socialist country pre cold war than now. I would go as far to say, winning the cold war has prevented the healing and reconciliation process that losing a war allows. Just look at the loser in Germany and its transformation post WW2 vs the winner in the US post cold war. The US held brain washing classes for primary school students with an hour a week dedicated to how evil communism was and how to beat the bastards. No wonder the electorate are allergic to socialist/ communist philosophies.

Further issues of the US include the nation was formed on freedoms (specifically religion), war of independence and the civil war which are all related to the rejection of government.




The reason why being a conservative culture is important for socialism is you can't expect people to accept paying higher taxes to help other, if they don't value helping their families and villages already. Further you can't expect socialism to last, if you don't have a commitment of the people to contribute and work hard to fund the system. Conservative cultures have the concept of shame which keeps people honest.

Please don't confuse conservative values which are relevant to the success of socialism with progressive values such as gay marriage etc.

In Australia we are adopting progressive values but we don't have conservative values respecting families, local communities and have "no shame". Thus we have limitations on how far we can go following Nordic nations.

That said it isn't all bad, as we are a successful a nation just as the Nordic nations are. Further I dare anyone to give up our great lifestyle and go and live in Nordic nations if one feels the grass is greener on the other side.
 

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TheBrownDog
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We should ask PR to provide his definition then, as the relationship between conservatism and the likelihood of socialism being a success is his argument.

In my view, broad-ranging social measures are a far better indicator than access to a consumer good (firearms, although the argument is reversed if you substitute 'guns' for 'Kinder surprise')
I would have thought the definition of conservative values would be the ones relevant to the topic being what enables socialism to work. They would be values that relate to productivity, the willingness to help others and the avoidance of leaches making a mockery of tax payers or the system.




FTR gun ownership for civilians in norway, sweden, finland etc is high. It is even higher if you add the serviceman (current, reserves and ex-serviceman). Again the conservative culture and the acceptance of responsibility is a major reason why these nations are not like the US in terms of what they do with guns.
 

Snake_Baker

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I would have thought the definition of conservative values would be the ones relevant to the topic being what enables socialism to work. They would be values that relate to productivity, the willingness to help others and the avoidance of leaches making a mockery of tax payers or the system.

FTR gun ownership for civilians in norway, sweden, finland etc is high. It is even higher if you add the serviceman (current, reserves and ex-serviceman). Again the conservative culture and the acceptance of responsibility is a major reason why these nations are not like the US in terms of what they do with guns.
Don't the Swiss have the highest per capita automatic machine gun ownership?

Gun problems are not about guns.

Coincidentally, the Swiss also have the broadest Bill of Rights for individual citizens on the planet.

Libertarianism is the answer to many of societies ill's, yet the concept has been perverted by left and right for their own purposes which is ultimately statism and corporatism. THESE are the true diseases of western societies.
 

Mofra

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FTR gun ownership for civilians in norway, sweden, finland etc is high. It is even higher if you add the serviceman (current, reserves and ex-serviceman). Again the conservative culture and the acceptance of responsibility is a major reason why these nations are not like the US in terms of what they do with guns.
Agree, which why I don't think simply gun ownership is an accurate measure of whether a society is progressive or conservative.
 

Mofra

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just because a culture is conservative in some aspects, does not mean the society will adopt socialism or better still adopt socialism with success. Without digressing too far on the US, it should be noted they were are far more socialist country pre cold war than now. I would go as far to say, winning the cold war has prevented the healing and reconciliation process that losing a war allows. Just look at the loser in Germany and its transformation post WW2 vs the winner in the US post cold war. The US held brain washing classes for primary school students with an hour a week dedicated to how evil communism was and how to beat the bastards. No wonder the electorate are allergic to socialist/ communist philosophies.

Further issues of the US include the nation was formed on freedoms (specifically religion), war of independence and the civil war which are all related to the rejection of government.

The reason why being a conservative culture is important for socialism is you can't expect people to accept paying higher taxes to help other, if they don't value helping their families and villages already. Further you can't expect socialism to last, if you don't have a commitment of the people to contribute and work hard to fund the system. Conservative cultures have the concept of shame which keeps people honest.

Please don't confuse conservative values which are relevant to the success of socialism with progressive values such as gay marriage etc.

In Australia we are adopting progressive values but we don't have conservative values respecting families, local communities and have "no shame". Thus we have limitations on how far we can go following Nordic nations.

That said it isn't all bad, as we are a successful a nation just as the Nordic nations are. Further I dare anyone to give up our great lifestyle and go and live in Nordic nations if one feels the grass is greener on the other side.
I disagree with many respects about that summation of Australia - in many respects we have been ahead of many countries in citizen rights (especially worker protections and female participation in democracy and the workplace). There has been a creeping Americanisation in recent years but nobody except for the fringe IPA types want to tear up medicare and privatise the entire healthcare system (for example).

FWIW The US spend almost 250% per capita on healthcare compared to Australia for a much worse outcome, so the equation of 'socialism = higher taxing' isn't quite a linear measure. You still need governments to actually run efficiently and direct that spending well.
The US are as capitalist a society as you can get and have a horrific deficit position along with dire social consequences and inequality (~1 in 7 US adults requires food stamps!)

For better representation, government spending as a % of GDP isn't that different between the US and Australia (2019 figures):


Health care, minimum wage laws, annual leave provisions and education spending is far different through.
 

Gethelred

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I can't get this logic.

If you go back to the starting line then the U.S. is miles ahead as a progressive staqte. Hell, I can own a firearm there without enduring the equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition. How much more "progressive" do you wanna get?

U.S.Citizens have more individual rights than most other Western nations.
Does more freedom = progressive?

Would've thought it a separate spectrum; right/left, conservative/progressive, authoritarian/libertarian.
 

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