Expansion Proposals for a Truly National AFL

[Roylion]

There was obviously enough talent in Oliver for MFC to draft him with a 3 pick.

Knowing his obvious talent, it would have been a prudent for his local club Shepparton to keep him contracted as long as possible.

What if he didn't want to sign a long term contract with Shepparton?

So yes, you are correct, the contract would have been structured in a way where a 5 year player payment contract would be offered, but a club contract would be ongoing until a transfer fee was agreed to by the club.

So tied to Shepparton for the duration of his career, if a transfer fee can't be agreed upon. So could this be challenged in the courts by the player under "restraint of trade"?

In a free market system, I don't think a $10M transfer fee is unrealistic for Oliver.

It's not a free market, if players can't transfer to where they want to go, when they want to go.

 

[Roylion]

But with a flawed and unsustainable model, as we can see now.

It's certainly no more flawed or unsustainable that what you propose.

 

[Tonatopia]

It's certainly no more flawed or unsustainable that what you propose.

It is when club's require prolonged welfare and/or if club's like NMFC are constantly threatened with relocation.

 

[Tonatopia]

What if he didn't want to sign a long term contract with Shepparton?
So tied to Shepparton for the duration of his career, if a transfer fee can't be agreed upon. So could this be challenged in the courts by the player under "restraint of trade"?
It's not a free market, if players can't transfer to where they want to go, when they want to go.

Give me an example where a deal cant been done in European soccer, when both a player and a suitable club want a trade?

Deals normally get done at the right price when good managers are involved. But yes, bad managers and greedy players exist, but it is not in anybody's interest for a player to play at a club if he dot want to be there. Common sense usually prevails, but not always.

 

[Roylion]

It is when club's require prolonged welfare and/or if club's like NMFC are constantly threatened with relocation.

Threatened by who?

 

[Roylion]

But yes, bad managers and greedy players exist, but it is not in anybody's interest for a player to play at a club if he dot want to be there. Common sense usually prevails, but not always.

So the most talented players continually end up at the richest clubs in Div 1, thus perpetuating their position in Div 1.

 

[Blackas87]

There was obviously enough talent in Oliver for MFC to draft him with a 3 pick.

Knowing his obvious talent, it would have been a prudent for his local club Shepparton to keep him contracted as long as possible. So yes, you are correct, the contract would have been structured in a way where a 5 year player payment contract would be offered, but a club contract would be ongoing until a transfer fee was agreed to by the club. Similar to the soccer model.

In a free market system, I don't think a $10M transfer fee is unrealistic for Oliver. This creates a revenue pathway for club's which develop good talent.

I know Oliver is only an example but he wasn’t selected to represent Vic country in his u18 season, he then had a very good back half of the season.

But for every Oliver there is a Jimmy Toumpas, Paddy McCartin, Cale Morton. How about the guy selected at pick 2 right before Oliver Josh Schache. Not every star junior player turns out to be a star in the long run. I think Shepparton signing a big contract for a junior is too big of a risk and it’ll be more likely the cashed up super clubs will scout the best juniors and have better development programs similar to what happens in England. The bigger clubs end up signing the best juniors and then eventually sell them to clubs such as Shepparton

 

[Tonatopia]

Threatened by who?

The current AFL model.

 

[Tonatopia]

So the most talented players continually end up at the richest clubs in Div 1, thus perpetuating their position in Div 1.

Mostly yes, but I suspect there would be more than enough regional loyalty to sustain our cultural values.

 

[Roylion]

The current AFL model.

They're not threatened by the current model at all.

 

[Tonatopia]

I know Oliver is only an example but he wasn’t selected to represent Vic country in his u18 season, he then had a very good back half of the season.

But for every Oliver there is a Jimmy Toumpas, Paddy McCartin, Cale Morton. How about the guy selected at pick 2 right before Oliver Josh Schache. Not every star junior player turns out to be a star in the long run. I think Shepparton signing a big contract for a junior is too big of a risk and it’ll be more likely the cashed up super clubs will scout the best juniors and have better development programs similar to what happens in England. The bigger clubs end up signing the best juniors and then eventually sell them to clubs such as Shepparton

Then the local clubs would have to get to them first.
It's a big country mate. Gotta be strategic, smart, and stay engaged with your local junior football clubs.

I'm not proposing a welfare comp. If a Superclub got to Oliver before his local, then bad luck to the local.

 

[Roylion]

Mostly yes, but I suspect there would be more than enough regional loyalty to sustain our cultural values.

Then there's little point of divisions. The current model is far more preferable.

 

[Tonatopia]

They're not threatened by the current model at all.

You've got a Short memory Roylion.

 

[Tonatopia]

Then there's little point of divisions. The current model is far more preferable.

Unless you ask Tasmania, Cairns, NT, Canberra, regional Vic, ect.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Unless you ask Tasmania, Cairns, NT, Canberra, regional Vic, ect.

Can you point to one single piece of evidence that the people of Cairns currently involved in Cairns footy want Cairns to be represented on a bigger stage than having a local league and occasional AFL games? At all? Any public statements or newspaper interviews that this is what the people of Cairns to be the structure of football in their town?

 

[Tonatopia]

Can you point to one single piece of evidence that the people of Cairns currently involved in Cairns footy want Cairns to be represented on a bigger stage than having a local league and occasional AFL games? At all? Any public statements or newspaper interviews that this is what the people of Cairns to be the structure of football in their town?

Check out the plans for Cazaly stadium.

And I travel a fair bit, and drink at regional pubs.
I speak about an AFL divisional conference and locals love the idea, and it gives me a good insight on how it would work and how popular it would be.

Most people would not give up on their AFL side, but would attend and support their local games, if into footy.

Currently, big regional towns and cities have domestic leagues, and don't have the opportunity to get behind 1 team. It is a new concept that gets a good response.

NB. I'm not talking about a VFL dead end reserves comp, but national divisional comp. Don't confuse it, as they are poles apart.

 

[Big Crow]

They’re obviously trying to distract from Dayne Beams being paid outside of the salary cap with the blessing of AFL House by using this Mackay suspension garbage.

1. Other clubs wouldn’t get the same permission to break the rules.

2. A big Victorian club wouldn’t get put through the ringer on a trumped up charge at the tribunal to be made an example of.

Add it to the loooong list of double standards. We’re so far off a truly National comp it’s not funny. As a league, the AFL is a complete sham.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Check out the plans for Cazaly stadium.

Plenty of stadiums have plans for how they want to get bigger, before they get realistic funding for it. Besides, it's not inappropriate for Cazaly's to be a better stadium for the AFL games it already host

And I travel a fair bit, and drink at regional pubs.
I speak about an AFL divisional conference and locals love the idea, and it gives me a good insight on how it would work and how popular it would be.

So regional pubs is your proof of concept? People at an unnamed Cairns pub?

Most people would not give up on their AFL side, but would attend and support their local games, if into footy.

So you're freely admitting that people in a town that would have a lower division wouldn't stop supporting their higher division 1 or 2 team. What happens when the games clash? What happens when people don't have the time or investment to watch or attend more than 1 game of footy a weekend, TV or in person?

Currently, big regional towns and cities have domestic leagues, and don't have the opportunity to get behind 1 team. It is a new concept that gets a good response.

Where's this response apart from the pubs you go?

In any case, it's absolutely pigheaded to believe that people would love the idea of having their town compete against some other team across the country where there's no context as to why one team is playing each other, as opposed to having opponents within towns. Some towns have historical rivalries that are moderately balanced and add to the sporting context of that town, the people don't want to throw that away. Take Broken Hill - four teams, Central, North, South and West have played a competition among themselves for 100 years and have all won between 24 and 38 total flags of the four team competition. The four team competition and four-way rivalry is clearly foundational to the manner in which a reasonably small town can have such a vibrant footballing culture. You think that will be enhanced if the people of Broken Hill are forced into a four-way merger so they can play Cairns, Horsham and Bunbry?

Any public statements or newspaper interviews that this is what the people of Cairns to be the structure of football in their town?

So you can't find this? For example, the planned upgrades for Calazy's Stadium was given the reason for a) potential uses in the Olympic Games bid as a training/base venue for international competitors and b) because they say that they get sellouts in their existing events. Absolutely no mention whatsoever for any desire for Cairns to have a representative footy team in any permanent sense. You'd think they'd have mentioned it, wouldn't you, if you think that the plans for Cazaly's stadium naturally leads to a desire for a team?

Upgrade for Cazalys Stadium

Cazalys Stadium will receive an upgrade following a deal to play an AFL game at the Cairns venue in 2021, and more significant refurbishment could follow.

www.austadiums.com

 

[megadeth86]

Firstly, each team will enter via their own capacity. The team's listed are just an example. I'd suggest that a few teams may be driven to success by private/ corporate ownership, but at the end of the day, the free market will dictate proceedings, not AFL socialist engineering.

Obviously broadcast rights, sponsorship and gate takings will be the major revenue sources. But the main concept was to breed loyalty back into the game by allowing kids to support and play for their 'local' club.

Also, it is arrogant to think we can just introduce a Tasmanian team, as Hobart has 250k people and could support a strong team on their own.

Imagine a Wayne Carey strutting around at Wagga or Johnathan Brown at Warrnambool. Those types of players are capable of bringing a side to Div2, and packing in home crowds.

If you look at Port Lincoln, it is the richest place per capita in Oz.
Werribee will be nestled in a hub of $300k people and is uniquely local.
Indigenous players will stay at Alice Springs, and I'm sure those broadcast rights would be worth a bit.
Mildura has a massive agri community, as does the other regional club's.
Regional WA has massive mining companies that would get onboard.

Port Melbourne, Williamstown and Sandringham just keep on keeping on and may be used as affiliates.

I'll layout my proposition for 'freemarket equalisation' as we go forward with this thread.

Three things in your favour: you are trying, you are thinking, and you refuse to let the AFL dictatorship blind you with the ideology that their way is only feasible way.

 

[megadeth86]

The Western outpost derby between Albany and Geraldton would be massive......You could just imagine the thousands of Albanese folks making the 9 hour trip to Geraldton to fill out the away stands of Geraldton's new council paid for 20K stadium

I thought you meant Albanian for a minute there! But the Italians and Croatians of Geraldton might enjoy an away day in Albany. In soccer Geraldton La Fiamma used to play in the Perth soccer competition, same with Bunbury's South West Phoenix.

 

[megadeth86]

You are making no sense. You are assuming everyone has access to your "logic" but you are actually talking gibberish

If you want a demonstration of how money precisely drives success, here are the wage bills and finishing positions of EPL clubs this season

View attachment 1136834

Most remarkably, only 2 clubs finished more than 3 spots from their wage bill ranking. But also the top 4 finished precisely in the order of their wage bills as did the bottom team

European soccer is slowly bleeding up into the big dozen or so clubs in europe. Every other club and league are slowing becoming less relevant.

It is only long and deep cultural connection to those lower clubs and leagues that slows the bleeding

Scottish soccer doesn't quite match your assertions other than the top 5 clubs - look at tiny Livingston, Hamilton Academical and Ross County playing in the Premiership and bigger Dunfermline and Falkirk in lower leagues.

 

[megadeth86]

Hoping Carlton get relegated to Div 3 so they can play the newly promoted Orbost Awesomes at their 10,000 seater. Would need a roof though. Gets cold up there. You might think 10k doesn't stack up but you obviously didn't think about the Mallacoota, Buchan and Omeo fans who will stream in. As well as the weird drifters who kind of live in the mountains but love their footy.

Carlton would have been relegated from the AFL in 2002 if there was pro-rel, probably still wouldn't have got their AFL 'first division" place back by now.

 

[megadeth86]

Outside of soccer, are there any other professional sports leagues in the world that use promotion and relegation?

British rugby league and I believe union.

 

[megadeth86]

I bet you were an Andrews voter.

And that comment he/she made about the AFL being authentic - beyond laughable.

 

[megadeth86]

Yeah I reckon Browny is a legend winning 3 national titles playing in a big market 2000km from Warrnambool.

I reckon the best you could look at is how they do it in Soccer. They have the State premier leagues (Victorian Premier league) with the champions of each state then playing off in the National premier league to then be regarded as national champions at a semi pro level (one level below the A league)

local rivals still get to play each other in local leagues such as Melbourne Knights vs South Melbourne Hellas while also competing for a national title. There is promotion relegation through to lower league just no promotion to the A league

Good post and both those clubs you mention - Hellas and Croatia - should have a chance to play in the A-League if they are good enough (same applies for Hume City and other fast-risers).