Expansion Proposals for a Truly National AFL

[Aussie in exile]

If the funding from Tasmania dries up, I suggest they'd start to struggle without AFL funding.

I would suggest if that does happen the AFL will just increase the money they give them

 

[RedV3x]

If the funding from Tasmania dries up, I suggest they'd start to struggle without AFL funding.

So they might in fact get relegated !!!

 

[Kwality]

I would suggest if that does happen the AFL will just increase the money they give them

History says you are spot on.
Its why Tas has real influence on the AFL, it will be weaker than ever, week by week.

 

[RedV3x]

In Melbourne it was passionately followed.

Only by the people who followed it, not by the general population.

 

[big_e]

Who says Subi isn’t a contender for a national club?

These are the highest WAFL crowds this year. Doesn't scream out "national club" to me....

 

[Roylion]

If the funding from Tasmania dries up, I suggest they'd start to struggle without AFL funding.

They'll find other funding.

 

[Blackas87]

These are the highest WAFL crowds this year. Doesn't scream out "national club" to me....

View attachment 1158115

Those clubs are currently playing in a state league with state league players with no chance of making it to a national league.

 

[Kwality]

They'll find other funding.

Easily found in their budget, unless the Commission took any responsibility.

 

[big_e]

Those clubs are currently playing in a state league with state league players with no chance of making it to a national league.

Yeah, I don't think that's it.

 

[Tonatopia]

Yeah, I don't think that's it.

Then why were they previously soo big?

 

[Blackas87]

Yeah, I don't think that's it.

Why don’t you think that’s it?

 

[big_e]

Then why were they previously soo big?

Because that was all we had. And when that's all you have, you have time to develop rivalries and hatred and experiences can be played out year after year.

The Foundation Day Derby between East Fremantle and South Fremantle has been played for a hundred years and is usually the biggest non-final. A Foundation / WA Day game between South Fremantle and Wagga gets a few hundred, at best.

It's nothing to do with promotion or the chance to play in the top level, because we all know that with 100+ years of history and growth, the big AFL clubs will always be the big clubs, and there is no real chance of that changing. So yeah, technically, a WAFL side might get a chance to play with the big boys, but in the real world, they don't stand a chance.

And to be frank, these clubs are on the bare bones of their arses and probably wouldn't even want to risk joining the third or fourth tier because it would probably break them.

 

[terrybull]

Difference is All those clubs had other clubs founded by fans to continue on and follow and were able to enter somewhere in the Pyramid and earn their way back to where they once were.

Can South Melbourne and Fitzroy fans see their club back to where they once were?

-Accrington Stanley fc was founded 2 years after the original Accrington Stanley fc was dissolved

-Aldershot Town was founded 1992 after Aldershot FC dissolved

-Chester FC founded 2010 after Chester City dissolved

-AFC Darwen formed 2009 replaced Darwen FC

-Gateshead FC founded 1977 replaced Gateshead United

-FC Halifax Town founded 2008 after Halifax Town FC dissolved

-Hereford FC founded 2014 replaced Hereford United

-Macclesfield FC founded oct 13 2020 replaced the original club.

-Maidstone United FC 1992 replaced the original club

-ACF Rushden and Diamonds founded 2011 replaced Rushden and Diamonds fc

-Scarborough Athletic fc founded 2007 after Scarborough FC dissolved

-AFC Wimboldon was formed in 2002 after Wimboldon Fc moved to Milton Keynes

and we want this kind of mess in the AFL?

 

[Blackas87]

and we want this kind of mess in the AFL?

it’s not a mess, it’s what the fans of those clubs wanted, they could of deflected to Man United or Chelsea or Liverpool but they want to keep following their local club dreaming of rising up the leagues.

Do we want the Fitzroy mess again? South Melbourne relocation again?

Where’s North Melbourne going again? Is the Gold Coast? Tasmania? I can’t keep up, every year the league is going to send them somewhere new. I bet the fans love hearing every year their club will be merged, relocated or folded.

Are we happy with this mess in the AFL?

 

[terrybull]

it’s not a mess, it’s what the fans of those clubs wanted, the could of deflected to Man United or Chelsea or Liverpool but they want to keep following their local club dreaming of rising up the leagues.

Do we want the Fitzroy mess again? South Melbourne relocation again?

Where’s North Melbourne going again? Is the Gold Coast? Tasmania? I can’t keep up, every year the league is going to send them somewhere new. I bet the fans love hearing every year their club will be merged, relocated or folded.

Are we happy with this mess in the AFL?

The Fitzroy case was a disgrace and could have easily been saved by the AFL. Otherwise the VFL/AFL have done well to retain all it’s clubs in over 100 years.

I rather se a closed League with best players in the country then them being scattered over 4 divions.

Add six teams to make it 24 and play each other once…

Southern Islanders (Tasmania), Darwin Crocodiles, Perth United Emu’s, Canberra Rams, Norwood-Sturt, Auckland Warriors.

 

[Blackas87]

The Fitzroy case was a disgrace and could have easily been saved by the AFL. Otherwise the VFL/AFL have done well to retain all it’s clubs in over 100 years.

I rather se a closed League with best players in the country then them being scattered over 4 divions.

Add six teams to make it 24 and play each other once…

Southern Islanders (Tasmania), Darwin Crocodiles, Perth United Emu’s, Canberra Rams, Norwood-Sturt, Auckland Warriors.

I’m not for 4 divisions of 12 but I do think other clubs and regions should have the right to earn a spot. You’d still have the best players in top league, look at Soccer in England the superstars aren’t playing in the 2nd division.

what about Newcastle or Wollongong? The Sunshine Coast? Townsville or Cairns? They’re never going to get teams?

 

[terrybull]

I’m not for 4 divisions of 12 but I do think other clubs and regions should have the right to earn a spot. You’d still have the best players in top league, look at Soccer in England the superstars aren’t playing in the 2nd division.

what about Newcastle or Wollongong? The Sunshine Coast? Townsville or Cairns? They’re never going to get teams?

sorry there is so many contradictions in this thread now.

Tonatopia argued earlier in this thread that not all superstars would be in division 1 as they be loyal to their local club and get them advancing divisions…

And by the way in Sweden which has 10 divisions, you still need to have a stable economy to be allowed to stay in the top 2 divisions or you get bundled out despite where you finish on the ladder…

 

[Blackas87]

sorry there is so many contradictions in this thread now.

Tonatopia argued earlier in this thread that not all superstars would be in division 1 as they be loyal to their local club and get them advancing divisions…

And by the way in Sweden which has 10 divisions, you still need to have a stable economy to be allowed to stay in the top 2 divisions or you get bundled out despite where you finish on the ladder…

The stars will end up in the top. Star players want to be on the big stage earning big money. Small regional towns simply couldn’t compete financially against the bigger clubs. But like in England smaller regional towns still have clubs at Lower levels where fans are excited to see their club move up.

But hypothetically if Aussie Rules grows popular in Newcastle and they build a strong club financially and develop a string playing list they should have the right to move up and earn a spot in the top league, once up the top they’d get big crowds and sponsors and they would be able to afford the star players.

Just like Tasmania now, they’re screaming out for a team but have always been told no, not a big enough population, not enough money in Tasmania ect.. with a promotion/relegation model no one can say no to them, it’s up to them to earn and prove they can have a team, and that can go for any location.

 

[Kwality]

Yeah, I don't think that's it.

The

Ok.

So you mention 12 sides out of 100 English teams competing from Div1-5. that represents about 10% death rate.

Lets not talk about all the VFA/VFL clubs that have died, due to the AFL structure, buts lets just focus on the top league.

out of 18 sides, we have had Fitzroy and South Melbourne dissapear. 11% death rate.
And we currently have 2 clubs GWS and GC living on welfare, and NMFC on shaky ground under the current model.

And as I mentioned lets not talk about the countless VFA clubs that have died as a result of this 1 dimensional system.

Basically, if a club is well managed, it will find its level in a divisional structure, without being forced to fold/relocate.

Clubs on welfare is a significantly different category to 'development'. One is yesterday, the other 20 years hence.

 

[Tonatopia]

I’m not for 4 divisions of 12 but I do think other clubs and regions should have the right to earn a spot. You’d still have the best players in top league, look at Soccer in England the superstars aren’t playing in the 2nd division.

what about Newcastle or Wollongong? The Sunshine Coast? Townsville or Cairns? They’re never going to get teams?

I appreciate the support, honestly.

But if you don't believe in 4 divisions of 12 teams, can you please propose an alternative, based on pro/rel divisional system?

 

[megadeth86]

Subi won the last WAFL flag before the Eagles were formed. Subi is a district based club not a contender for a national club.

Victoria knew it had a problem with too many clubs, it still does.

Wanting change is well & good, understanding how we got where we are is important when contemplating change.

Subi should have got that AFL spot instead of West Coast. And I'm not a Subi fan. I personally don't get the appeal of plastic franchises with zero tradition.

Can you imagine if (say) Rangers and Celtic were barred from the Scottish Premiership and a new fake mega-club was put in there (let's call it, say, Glasgow United)? Celtic and Rangers would keep 90% of their crowds and Glasgow United would have tiny crowds for at least a generation. But West Australia is not like that.

I'm old enough to remember:
1986: "Hey, guys, I'm diehard East Perth, Royals till die, mate. Black and blue forever, never miss a game, got a Royals tattoo".

1987, same guy: "Hey, guys, I'm die-hard Eagles, Eagles till die, mate. Gold and blue forever, never miss a game. ... East Perth?....Ah, don't they play WAFL or something? Are they still going?".

 

[megadeth86]

the NSL never had pro-rel. It had conferences for a very brief period, but for most of its life was a single division.

The NSL had promotion and relegation back to the state leagues for most of its life. Towards the end, it was done sporadically with a lot of exceptions.

 

[megadeth86]

Only by the people who followed it, not by the general population.

So you are defining "general population" as excluding the Greek, Italian, Macedonian, Croatian and Serbian communities? Really? That's a horrible definition of "general population". Oh, I get it, you mean the Anglos.

Your view is also very Perth-centric. 30% of the population in Western Melbourne and Geelong has Croatian heritage.

 

[The_Wookie]

The NSL had promotion and relegation back to the state leagues for most of its life. Towards the end, it was done sporadically with a lot of exceptions.

Ill stand corrected then but weirdly it seems to have been more financial than results based. The team that finished last was rarely relegated.

When South Melbourne finished last in the 1979 National Soccer League season, relegation plans were overturned for commercial reasons.

Fellow Victorian clubs Heidelberg United and Footscray – who were intense rivals on the field – as well as interstate combatants, knew that revenues would dip without the giants in the competition.

Fast forward almost 42 years and a similar dilemma besets Australia, with commercial realities and football ideologies still some way apart.

The South Melbourne example is one of many in the NSL era where finance, marketing, geography, politics or even football development reasons outweighed results, and specifically ladder placings, with regards to promotion-relegation.

Brisbane City twice finished last (1978 and ’82) but weren’t relegated, ditto West Adelaide (1981) and Brisbane Lions (1983), with Sydney Olympic and Blacktown City among the clubs relegated from second last ahead of bottom sides. Finances and geography were key drivers.

Optus Sport

sport.optus.com.au

 

[Blackas87]

I appreciate the support, honestly.

But if you don't believe in 4 divisions of 12 teams, can you please propose an alternative, based on pro/rel divisional system?

Well I haven’t thought about it in detail as much as yourself but I would have the top division between 16-20 teams and keep the top 8 finals system. Probably more towards 16 teams playing everyone home and away for a 30 game season.

Then only a 2nd division with preferably the same amount of teams as division one but doesn’t have to be.

I think a 3rd and 4th national division would lose interest so for a Third tier I’d go down to state leagues. With stronger regional teams say in Victoria Bendigo, Ballarat, Shepparton, Albury/Wadonga aiming to become state champions and earn a spot on the national stage would make the VFL more appealing to watch. Like wise in Queensland, clubs from Maroochydore, Cairns, Townsville, Rockhampton along with clubs in Brisbane (Aspley) and the Gold Coast (Southport) interest in the game will grow. Its up to those clubs to grow the game in that region if they want to be on the national stage.

I’d also keep the salary cap, I don’t think we want super clubs winning the top division every year but I wouldn’t have a salary floor. The lower leagues would abide by the same salary cap as the top division so potentially an investor could put money into a club/region and build them up.

No drafts, I’ve said this in other threads I’m not a fan of them. Players getting picked up by random clubs that they had no choice over, basically putting their career in other peoples hands.