Society/Culture Psuedoscientific nonsense

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ShanDog said:
Oh cool. Let him know I'm a big fan - it's hard to find good comedians these days.
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Talk about cognitive dissonance - won't let his wife put on sunscreen because of foreign nano-particles invading her body BUT is quite happy with her breast implants. Its beyond satire
 
Contra Mundum said:
Talk about cognitive dissonance - won't let his wife put on sunscreen because of foreign nano-particles invading her body BUT is quite happy with her breast implants. Its beyond satire
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True. But, in his defence for that particular (and only) example, dem boobies...
 

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kickazz said:
Proper drug trials account pretty easily for the placebo effect via the double blind process.
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This may well be true. But take prozac for example. I'm reasonably confident drugs such as that are routinely given out regardless of clinical need. Is that the placebo effect, patient whingeing or GPs getting kick backs?

Is overprescription not a major problem?
 
medusala said:
This may well be true. But take prozac for example. I'm reasonably confident drugs such as that are routinely given out regardless of clinical need. Is that the placebo effect, patient whingeing or GPs getting kick backs?

Is overprescription not a major problem?
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Certainly is.

Chemical intervention is often the only way to go if you are well and truly off the rails, but the latest evidence on lower levels of mental illness suggest any number of things, including diet, exercise, CBT to be more effective.
 
kickazz said:
Certainly is.

Chemical intervention is often the only way to go if you are well and truly off the rails, but the latest evidence on lower levels of mental illness suggest any number of things, including diet, exercise, CBT to be more effective.
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For me, I need medical intervention.
I eat a mostly plant based diet, hardly eat sugar, exercise regulary and am being treated by a psychologist doing CBT.
But without the brain chemistry being rectified by medicine I just fall into a vicious cycle. I was also against anti depressants and lithium to begin with because I thought it would numb me but I am on a good mix that is having a positive effect on me.
 
Cager Macleod said:
For me, I need medical intervention.
I eat a mostly plant based diet, hardly eat sugar, exercise regulary and am being treated by a psychologist doing CBT.
But without the brain chemistry being rectified by medicine I just fall into a vicious cycle. I was also against anti depressants and lithium to begin with because I thought it would numb me but I am on a good mix that is having a positive effect on me.
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Same boat here. I think most mild cases of mental illness could be cured with exercise and/or talking therapies, but severe illnesses need to be attacked from every angle, often including medication.

Unfortunately medication is often used as a first resort by GPs even for mild mental illness, from what I've been told.
 
FireKrakouer said:
Same boat here. I think most mild cases of mental illness could be cured with exercise and/or talking therapies, but severe illnesses need to be attacked from every angle, often including medication.

Unfortunately medication is often used as a first resort by GPs even for mild mental illness, from what I've been told.
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Yeah, I think it's just easier to give some pills and say you'll be right for some GP's. "Here you're feeling bad. Here's some Zoloft." But I think some people also expect that they get anti depressants because I think they think they work like antibiotics.

But my GP's didn't try to force any pills on me until I said that I knew I needed them.
 
kickazz said:
Certainly is.

Chemical intervention is often the only way to go if you are well and truly off the rails, but the latest evidence on lower levels of mental illness suggest any number of things, including diet, exercise, CBT to be more effective.
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The chemical imbalance theory is paid scientific nonsense.

It's been admitted to as a marketing strategy to sell prozac. All the marketing gurus from the other companies followed.

There is no test for what they claim about chemical imbalance hence why placebo works better than the real thing

A select few off the rails need chemical intervention. But the majority don't. These drugs causing carnage
 
Cager Macleod said:
Yeah, I think it's just easier to give some pills and say you'll be right for some GP's. "Here you're feeling bad. Here's some Zoloft." But I think some people also expect that they get anti depressants because I think they think they work like antibiotics.

But my GP's didn't try to force any pills on me until I said that I knew I needed them.
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Yup, much easier to take a pill than to get to the gym 3 times a week or cook your own healthy dinner each night. But you can't blame people for trying, when depression or anxiety may have drained their energy levels to the point that getting out of bed feels impossible, let alone exercising.

Glad to hear your experience with GPs were positive.


Thegibbsgamble said:
The chemical imbalance theory is paid scientific nonsense.

It's been admitted to as a marketing strategy to sell prozac. All the marketing gurus from the other companies followed.

There is no test for what they claim about chemical imbalance hence why placebo works better than the real thing

A select few off the rails need chemical intervention. But the majority don't. These drugs causing carnage
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I think there is merit to the imbalance theory, the environmental theory and any other theories. I know I have been on around 15 psychiatric drugs, and many made my condition worse. I had such bad ocd and anxiety that I was house-bound for a while, Howard Hughes style.

However, when I changed from an SSRI to an SNRI (in addition to an anti psychotic I was already taking), I slowly felt my anxiety melt away over about 3 months of increasing the dosage and letting it take effect, to the point where I was 50% cured and could actually escape the house and engage in lifestyle changes to fix about 40% more (I will never be 100% symptom free). It was certainly no placebo effect, as I had fully given up on the idea that meds would actually help and had tried all the ones marketed for my condition already.

So the sudden change occuring due to a drug that effects noradrenaline in addition to serotonin suggested to me that my noradrenaline levels were extremely "imbalanced", and that there is merit to the chemical imbalance theory. But it took 2 years to find the right meds, and they only did half the job, so I certainly wouldn't argue in favour of psych meds being the sole solution for anyone.
 
Thegibbsgamble said:
The chemical imbalance theory is paid scientific nonsense.

It's been admitted to as a marketing strategy to sell prozac. All the marketing gurus from the other companies followed.

There is no test for what they claim about chemical imbalance hence why placebo works better than the real thing

A select few off the rails need chemical intervention. But the majority don't. These drugs causing carnage
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welcome back little graham. to your credit, your posts under the new name don't seem nearly as combative.

for what it's worth, there isn't really a "theory" of chemical imbalance; that's simply the way complexities of brain chemistry are explained to dumb people. the reason being that by changing the way serotonin or dopamine work in the brain a person's mood can be changed (improved). if you deny that these chemicals have a role to play in mood then you haven't taken enough ecstasy.

obviously, this doesn't mean that depression is caused only or solely by a "chemical imbalance"- the amount of serotonin being re-absorbed in any given person might be completely natural and normal for them. however, if decreasing the rate it's being re-absorbed improves a person's mood, then that person's brain chemistry is being altered in a way that benefits them. hence the post-hoc "chemical balance" explanation (and as you note, likely marketing angle). serotonin's reuptake may not be causing the depression, but slowing that uptake may improve mood.

i've taken SSRIs, SNRIs and tricyclics and im also a long-term recreational drug user (though less since im all old now). antidepressants might not work for all people and i accept there are some reputable studies that question SSRI efficacy in particualr re lower-severity depression, but people who says these drugs don't work at all are about as convincing as someone arguing MDMA or THC only work via the placebo effect.
 
It's a difficult subject to speak on when you have people with addictions to these drugs saying they work. Were inna thread about pseudo scientific nonsense and people with brain damage defending that very thing for very personal reasons.

This is long but it's actually real science.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?311149-1/bad-pharma
 

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Thegibbsgamble said:
It's a difficult subject to speak on when you have people with addictions to these drugs saying they work. Were inna thread about pseudo scientific nonsense and people with brain damage defending that very thing for very personal reasons.

This is long but it's actually real science.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?311149-1/bad-pharma
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So Goldacre is dropping truth bombs when he critiques the pharmaceutical industry - what of his critique of alternative medicine? Is that on point too? Or does your affinity for his work end where he disagrees with you?
 
This is an actual product

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Thegibbsgamble said:
It's a difficult subject to speak on when you have people with addictions to these drugs saying they work.

Were inna thread about pseudo scientific nonsense and people with brain damage defending that very thing for very personal reasons.
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you're a simpleton who preaches ideology over anything. you have zero understanding in any scientific discipline you try and lecture us about and i have destroyed you on multiple topics over the journey. that vaccine "debate" and your child-like conception of statistics was a real treat :tearsofjoy:

i am in no way addicted to these drugs; i regularly went off them for weeks before a big dance party because their method of action ruins the effects of party drugs. i know for a fact that they have an effect, and you've got no experience at all. indeed, you likely know less about brain chemistry than any pill-popper of the last 3 decades. i know SSRIs work for the same reason i know the amino acid 5-htp works- many years of experimentation.

Thegibbsgamble said:
but it's actually real science.
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how would you know? you haven't read/understood a published study in your whole life.
 
ShanDog said:
So Goldacre is dropping truth bombs when he critiques the pharmaceutical industry - what of his critique of alternative medicine? Is that on point too? Or does your affinity for his work end where he disagrees with you?
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Can you post those critiques of alternative medicine?

I would like to read them
 
Snake_Baker said:
Did that come from a Scientology website?
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This guy wrote the regulations concerning use of anti depressants by airline pilots

When he gives evidence in American courts on the pseudo scientific nonsense that are psych drugs. The courts listen

What you say about ray hadlee is true of you in what you're attempting to do with this post
 
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