Certified Legendary Thread Q: Why did Freeman Leave St Kilda? (A: He was delisted)

[Gone Critical]

We can't complain about Freeman in one breath then extol like Aish and Treloar in the next. The whole thing worked out well for everyone. Freeman decision is understandable and not indicative of a pea heart. Love that accusation coming off the internet. Sure would have loved to have him and see what he could be. But then we might not have ended with Aish and there is no argument which of those 2 you would choose.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Yes it is that simple. Teams look to new players or players taking on hew roles each year to improve.

Pendles is the extreme on the scale and there is no pint using his name.

But again. There's 22 spots to fill. Throughout a typical NAB Challenge series, you'll use almost your entire list. But most teams go to about 25 players deep on their list for regular senior spots.

So, if there isn't a pecking order, how do you turn 25 into 22? Especially given that 12 of the 22 spots are taken by forward and backs? That gives only 10 spots at best for mids. At BEST. Of those 10 spots, many of those mids will need to be versatile, which means they'll need to be able to play forward or back on a whim.

So please explain to me, how a 20 year old mid, who is yet to play senior football, with a lack in confidence in his body, was supposed to crack into this midfield by Round 1 next season? What, with some good training and decent NAB form? Mind you, his NAB Form before he did his hammy wasn't mind blowing as it was.

Again, I'm not trying to put the kid down, if we were willing to give up pick 10 for him, then he had to have shown them SOMETHING (not that it's always a guarantee), but given all that's transpired, even if Freeman somehow managed to get his body right (which was looking very unlikely while he was with us), there was simply no way known he was cracking into our midfield in 2016. It just wasn't going to happen.

He was starting behind:

- Pendlebury
- Swan
- Sidebottom
- Adams
- Treloar
- Aish
- De Goey
- Greenwood
- Crisp

At a minimum. So he's already at least 10th in the pecking order. That's also forgetting pinch hitting from Blair, Elliott, Fasolo, Broomhead and a couple of others. His form, would somehow have to have been absolutely STELLAR to be ahead of any of those. Assuming his body could even hold up, which it hadn't at Collingwood thus far.

To truly believe there's no such thing as a pecking order in football sides is ludicrous. Naivety of the highest order. EVERY football side has a pecking order and it takes outstanding and more importantly consistent form to jump ahead in the queue. Why do you think Seedsman and Kennedy are no longer at Collingwood? Yeah, they both showed flashes, but they weren't CONSISTENTLY showing that form. Hence, they were way down the pecking order and were the first to go.

Which is exactly what Freeman would have been referring to in that interview. He knew what had happened to Seedsman and Kennedy and knew he was most likely next in the next couple of years.

 

[Adam H]

But again. There's 22 spots to fill. Throughout a typical NAB Challenge series, you'll use almost your entire list. But most teams go to about 25 players deep on their list for regular senior spots.

So, if there isn't a pecking order, how do you turn 25 into 22? Especially given that 12 of the 22 spots are taken by forward and backs? That gives only 10 spots at best for mids. At BEST. Of those 10 spots, many of those mids will need to be versatile, which means they'll need to be able to play forward or back on a whim.

So please explain to me, how a 20 year old mid, who is yet to play senior football, with a lack in confidence in his body, was supposed to crack into this midfield by Round 1 next season? What, with some good training and decent NAB form? Mind you, his NAB Form before he did his hammy wasn't mind blowing as it was.

Again, I'm not trying to put the kid down, if we were willing to give up pick 10 for him, then he had to have shown them SOMETHING (not that it's always a guarantee), but given all that's transpired, even if Freeman somehow managed to get his body right (which was looking very unlikely while he was with us), there was simply no way known he was cracking into our midfield in 2016. It just wasn't going to happen.

He was starting behind:

- Pendlebury
- Swan
- Sidebottom
- Adams
- Treloar
- Aish
- De Goey
- Greenwood
- Crisp

At a minimum. So he's already at least 10th in the pecking order. That's also forgetting pinch hitting from Blair, Elliott, Fasolo, Broomhead and a couple of others. His form, would somehow have to have been absolutely STELLAR to be ahead of any of those. Assuming his body could even hold up, which it hadn't at Collingwood thus far.

To truly believe there's no such thing as a pecking order in football sides is ludicrous. Naivety of the highest order. EVERY football side has a pecking order and it takes outstanding and more importantly consistent form to jump ahead in the queue. Why do you think Seedsman and Kennedy are no longer at Collingwood? Yeah, they both showed flashes, but they weren't CONSISTENTLY showing that form. Hence, they were way down the pecking order and were the first to go.

Which is exactly what Freeman would have been referring to in that interview. He knew what had happened to Seedsman and Kennedy and knew he was most likely next in the next couple of years.

If he played well in the pre season he would have been in the side its just wrong to suggest otherwise. The mid field would just be deeper and players like Blair Greenwood or even a Crisp DeGoey or Aish would be left out or moved to other positions.

You use Seedsman and Kennedy as an example but that just proves my point. They played well they got picked its that simple.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

If he played well in the pre season he would have been in the side its just wrong to suggest otherwise. The mid field would just be deeper and players like Blair Greenwood or even a Crisp DeGoey or Aish would be left out or moved to other positions.

You use Seedsman and Kennedy as an example but that just proves my point. They played well they got picked its that simple.

Yeah, they got picked here and there. But they've now been traded. Because the consistency wasn't there. Freeman said he was worried he'd be out of the system within 2 years. This is why. He didn't have the confidence to think he could consistently crack into this side. Now, whether that was due to his body or belief in his own abilities, that's another discussion and we'll most likely never know. Hopefully, his body holds up for him.

 

[Adam H]

Yeah, they got picked here and there. But they've now been traded. Because the consistency wasn't there. Freeman said he was worried he'd be out of the system within 2 years. This is why. He didn't have the confidence to think he could consistently crack into this side. Now, whether that was due to his body or belief in his own abilities, that's another discussion and we'll most likely never know. Hopefully, his body holds up for him.

Thats the point though isnt it? If you play well you get picked. When your starting off you may not get as many poor performances before being dropped but you get your games. Now on potential and if he played to it you would agree he should add more to Collingwood than Greenwood Crisp even Adams and offers the outside pace that Aish won't have. Im sure if the bloke Collingwood rated as the next Dangerfield was up and going he would play.

 

[nahnah]

Thats the point though isnt it? If you play well you get picked. When your starting off you may not get as many poor performances before being dropped but you get your games. Now on potential and if he played to it you would agree he should add more to Collingwood than Greenwood Crisp even Adams and offers the outside pace that Aish won't have. Im sure if the bloke Collingwood rated as the next Dangerfield was up and going he would play.

Crisp + Adams are a lot better than Freeman and offer a lot more, Greenwood right now would also. Aish is debatable.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Thats the point though isnt it? If you play well you get picked. When your starting off you may not get as many poor performances before being dropped but you get your games. Now on potential and if he played to it you would agree he should add more to Collingwood than Greenwood Crisp even Adams and offers the outside pace that Aish won't have. Im sure if the bloke Collingwood rated as the next Dangerfield was up and going he would play.

So your qualifier was just him playing a game or two?

Well, yeah, he was most likely going to get a game or two, but I doubt that's what Freeman had in mind when he wanted to "crack into" the team. But again, that's also assuming he fulfils his talent.

 

[Adam H]

So your qualifier was just him playing a game or two?

Well, yeah, he was most likely going to get a game or two, but I doubt that's what Freeman had in mind when he wanted to "crack into" the team. But again, that's also assuming he fulfils his talent.

No he will have to play well as all new players coming into a side have to. Do you think if Aish DeGoey or Crisp stink it up they will play 22 games?

 

[1892]

If he played well in the pre season he would have been in the side its just wrong to suggest otherwise. The mid field would just be deeper and players like Blair Greenwood or even a Crisp DeGoey or Aish would be left out or moved to other positions.

You use Seedsman and Kennedy as an example but that just proves my point. They played well they got picked its that simple.

Kennedy belted the door down weeks on end with bogs in the vfl, yet could only break in for a game here or there through injuries to others, he couldn't push Blair out let alone our midfielders. Freeman offered something different in pace and this point of difference may have seen him get games after consistent good form, but he was starting a long way back and who knows when this opportunity would have presented.

 

[nahnah]

No he will have to play well as all new players coming into a side have to. Do you think if Aish DeGoey or Crisp stink it up they will play 22 games?

Crisp is a God around these parts of bigfooty.. Watch your mouth.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

No he will have to play well as all new players coming into a side have to. Do you think if Aish DeGoey or Crisp stink it up they will play 22 games?

No of course not, because they're lower down the pecking order than say Swan, who played an ENTIRE HORRIBLE SEASON in 2014 and didn't get dropped.

But Crisp and De Goey (more so Crisp) showed consistency in his form.

 

[Adam H]

No of course not, because they're lower down the pecking order than say Swan, who played an ENTIRE HORRIBLE SEASON in 2014 and didn't get dropped.

But Crisp and De Goey (more so Crisp) showed consistency in his form.

Exactly and do you think Crisp came thinking he would play 22 games or even more so do you think Collingwoods coaching staff thought he would? He earned his spot and kept it and he kept others out that were perhaps rated higher thats all Im saying.

 

[Royal Flash]

No of course not, because they're lower down the pecking order than say Swan, who played an ENTIRE HORRIBLE SEASON in 2014 and didn't get dropped.

But Crisp and De Goey (more so Crisp) showed consistency in his form.

In Swans horrible 2014 he still averaged 25 possessions a game.

Horrible Swan>>>>>>>The best of Ben Kennedy.

There may be a pecking order but it is based on output, ability and benefit to the team not on what their name is imo.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Exactly and do you think Crisp came thinking he would play 22 games or even more so do you think Collingwoods coaching staff thought he would? He earned his spot and kept it and he kept others out that were perhaps rated higher thats all Im saying.

Honestly? I'd say they probably wanted close to 22. I mean, we lost Beams, so yeah, I'd say the player that came as part of that trade needed to play quite a few games. Collingwood has openly said he's exceeded their expectations. But that doesn't necessarily mean they expected him not to play at all, or to only play a few games.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

In Swans horrible 2014 he still averaged 25 possessions a game.

Horrible Swan>>>>>>>The best of Ben Kennedy.

There may be a pecking order but it is based on output, ability and benefit to the team not on what their name is imo.

Who said it was name based? I kept talking about consistency. IT just so happens Swan's consistency has been built over a decade.

 

[Adam H]

Honestly? I'd say they probably wanted close to 22. I mean, we lost Beams, so yeah, I'd say the player that came as part of that trade needed to play quite a few games. Collingwood has openly said he's exceeded their expectations. But that doesn't necessarily mean they expected him not to play at all, or to only play a few games.

Other than a few youngsters all players are recruited or traded in to play seniors.

 

[Royal Flash]

Who said it was name based? I kept talking about consistency. IT just so happens Swan's consistency has been built over a decade.

Yes it has but he also didn't deserve to be dropped in 2014 either.

His form whilst well down due to injury was still best 22 every day of the week and certainly better than any other alternative playing in the VFL that we had on our books that year.

AFL clubs are a meritocracy pure and simple. If your form merits selection and retention in the side then you'll get it, if it doesn't you won't. It's why guns and once first selected players often finish their careers in the seconds simply because they've been superseded by another player that's now more beneficial to the side.

The challenge for young up and comers is to want to EARN their place in the starting line up even if that is at the expense of a "name" player. It's how sides improve but it seems to me that young Freeman didn't want to even try to do that and chose the path of least resistance by going to a side where it will supposedly be easier to get that place. That's his choice and good luck to him, but it does raise questions about his mental makeup in regards to self belief.

 

[pablo disco bar]

What did the flog say on SEN

 

[domin8tors]

the Kid will never be an elite player as highlighted by his own comments. " that he may not be around in 2 years " the Elite players of the game. Pendles, Judd, Ablett etc have all been injured and all come in needing to break into a side. so they train hard and set the bar high. Freeman has already accepted defeat. we haven't lost much at all.

 

[TW Sherrin]

we have been crying out for a Freeman type so if he was 100% he'd be a massive chance to play.

 

[noideaatall]

...
The challenge for young up and comers is to want to EARN their place in the starting line up even if that is at the expense of a "name" player. It's how sides improve but it seems to me that young Freeman didn't want to even try to do that and chose the path of least resistance by going to a side where it will supposedly be easier to get that place. That's his choice and good luck to him, but it does raise questions about his mental makeup in regards to self belief.

Why would he be motivated to do anything else?

 

[Apex36]

To be honest we could've made him feel more secure. Given the money he was after and told him the opportunity is there but we gave him a hand out the door.

If we'd given him the money he wanted you'd be on here bitching about how we're overpaying a guy that's been in rehab for two years.

 

[Apex36]

No of course not, because they're lower down the pecking order than say Swan, who played an ENTIRE HORRIBLE SEASON in 2014 and didn't get dropped.

But Crisp and De Goey (more so Crisp) showed consistency in his form.

An entire horrible season from Swan is still a much better one than that of Blair and the likes. We just hold Swanny to a much, much higher standard.

 

[TheWing121]

Some of the attacks on Freeman on this board are terrible and shows that some of the posters on here really have no idea about life in general

I don't have a problem with what Freeman did, while he isn't showing great confidence / arrogance it makes perfect sense. Look at Josh Kennedy wasn't good enough early to generate games at Hawthorn, but had more time at Sydney. Also someone who has had 2 years of hamstring injuries do people blame his confidence being low about even getting back to playing? let alone trying to make it in a deep midfield

If Freeman stayed at Collingwood, he would have 2 years to break into the team and show he was good enough, but also show he was over his injury. By going to St Kilda he has 3 years to show he is up to it and over injury. Plus a bigger pay check

He is on a modified pre season program which means he is unlikely to be fully fit in pre season and I would be surprised if he would be risked to early. Meaning he would most likely be in the VFL for an extended period of time once he gets up and running. Not to mention he then needs to break into a deep midfield

Look at Collingwood's list and see who is goes in ahead of. Round 1 2015 we played around 8 midfielders (Swan, Adams, Pendles, Blair, Sidebottom, Varcoe, Crisp, De Goey) or players who might spend a small amount of time in the middle

Assuming that means their is around 8 midfield rotating spots in 2016 who is he going to go in front of? without having very strong performances in VFL other a number of weeks

Their is at least 10 who start in front of him Pendles, Swan, Adams, Treloar, Sidebottom, Crisp, Greenwood, Blair, Varcoe, De Goey

Not to mention the arguable ones like Caff, Broomhead or those who are looking for more midfield minutes like Elliot & Williams

Whereas at St Kilda it is highly likely he would need less time to get a game being a younger team with less secured spots.

All in all I wish the kid the best and hope he has a successful career

 

[BLS World Wide]

Behind, Swan, Pendlebury, Sidebottom, Crisp, Treloar, Aish, Adams and De Goey.

He wasnt wrong.

lets be honest he was probably even behind Dwyer.