Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Kappa]

Some questions for Roylion and any other Fitzroy and Lions fans.


1. Do you think that the Brisbane Lions have done/are doing enough to maintain and promote the heritage and history of Fitzroy?


2. In 1996, there were other merger options being put to Fitzroy other than Brisbane and North Melbourne.

Whilst obviously being preferable for Fitzroy to continue in its own right in the AFL, if you had the time again and had to choose a merger option, would you choose Brisbane or another club’s proposal?


3. Someone in the doco I mentioned above said - might have been Kevin Murray - that the Lions winning the flag in 2001 (and then three-peating) helped heal the wound of the merger for some Fitzroy supporters.

Was that your experience, or do you still feel angry about what happened?


4. The actions of the AFL are well documented. Clearly they could and should have done more to help Fitzroy. However do you hold any resentment towards anyone at the club at the time for anything they did, or for not doing enough?

Why “should” the afl have done more? Do u think the afl nationally would be better if we still had south Melbourne and Fitzroy?

 

[PhatBoy]

Timing was fitzroys biggest crime and I’m very very sad that it happened that way. Sport isn’t sport without battlers or in the case of a club like Fitzroy (who for much of their existence weren’t battlers but were never a power club as such).

Rugby league doesn’t survive without teams like the Bulldogs - perennially backs against the wall - Penrith, the bogans from out west, the Knights, country boys outside of Sydney.

The NBA - the Pistons cultivated a legion of support from that whole ‘bad boy’ identity that broke away from the glamour sides like LA and Boston.

In the EPL every year there’s a side that threatens even if they don’t break into, the top four. Twice they’ve even won it through Blackburn and Leicester.

Cricket’s West Indies era would have been so much harder to take if it wasn’t for the fact that they were from a group of little tiny islands that totalled about 3-4 million in population.

Even now NZ aren’t a threat to world cricket domination but the sport is so much richer for having them as the battler side that regularly competes with better resourced teams.

Now Fitzroy weren’t the only ‘battler’ in the afl and a competition can only sustain so many of them but at THAT particular time they were the biggest battler of them all and they got nothing. No help, no offers of a window, and they had actually a based on what we know now - done enough to sustain themselves.

Would the actual game and competition have been better off? Who the hell knows. Port were coming in anyway come hell or high water from memory and GCS and the Giants would have eventually anyway: I don’t think it would have made a lick of difference aside from maybe impacting on Brisbane’s flags

All their demise really did ultimately was write another chapter in the boo of extinct sporting clubs, but a regrettable one and one that could have been avoided

 

[terrybull]

It'd be nice, but I think somewhat unrealistic.


And the AFL own the IP associated with the Brisbane Lions.

What the AFL don't own is the FFC logo. That is trademarked by the Fitzroy Football Club.


View attachment 1585967

What do supporters shout out today at games?

‘Roy’s? Maroons? Gorillas? Or still use Lions?

 

[Roylion]

What do supporters shout out today at games?

‘Roy’s? Maroons? Gorillas? Or still use Lions?

Which games? In the VAFA?

 

[terrybull]

Which games? In the VAFA?

Yes of course.

Do they play anywhere else?

 

[My Tilly]

Another interesting thing is that in the early years of the VFL, Fitzroy were a powerhouse.

They won lots of premierships and were quite successful.

Geographically, they were wedged between Collingwood and Carlton - two clubs that started in the VFL along with Fitzroy and who both went on to have huge supporter bases whilst Fitzroy did not, despite their early successes.

Footscray were faced with a similar crisis around the late 80's and they successfully raised millions of dollars which inevitably saved the club.

It really comes down to smart business decisions. Geelong were in serious financial hardship by the late 90's. I shudder to think what might have been had we not had Frank Costa or Brian Cook at the helm. They were pivotal in changing the clubs fortunes.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Yes I understand those who are older will bemoan the death of Fitzroy but what has their absence actually cost the league as a whole? Nuffin. Most of their fans would've followed the Lions or picked another team a suburb over. Not a big deal.

You really do have zero understanding of the footy scene in Melbourne. So if Essendon or North Melbourne ever go bust, their former fans will support Carlton instead? A silly point really, you have no appreciation of the tribal loyalties that are part of supporting our clubs.

We've lost Fitzroy, and yet we have clubs like Gold Coast Suns and the GWS Giants in the competition. It doesn't matter how many clubs the AFL start up in Queensland and New South Wales, those states are rugby league territory. Always were and always will be.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Another interesting thing is that in the early years of the VFL, Fitzroy were a powerhouse.

They won lots of premierships and were quite successful.

Geographically, they were wedged between Collingwood and Carlton - two clubs that started in the VFL along with Fitzroy and who both went on to have huge supporter bases whilst Fitzroy did not, despite their early successes.

When Fitzroy won their 1922 flag, it made them the most successful club in the competition until Collingwood overtook them in 1929.

I think Fitzroy were Collingwoods original rivals before Carlton as well. Maybe any Collingwood/Fitzroy historians on here can elaborate further on it.

 

[terrybull]

Footscray were faced with a similar crisis around the late 80's and they successfully raised millions of dollars which inevitably saved the club.

It really comes down to smart business decisions. Geelong were in serious financial hardship by the late 90's. I shudder to think what might have been had we not had Frank Costa or Brian Cook at the helm. They were pivotal in changing the clubs fortunes.

I’m not sure. But I remember reading weeks or maybe months before the demise that the Fitzroy board went out that they are not as bad off as the media says. Which made me feel relieved. Then next thing disaster!

Did the fans get enough time to react to rally like the Bulldogs did?

 

[terrybull]

When Fitzroy won their 1922 flag, it made them the most successful club in the competition until Collingwood overtook them in 1929.

I think Fitzroy were Collingwoods original rivals before Carlton as well. Maybe any Collingwood/Fitzroy historians on here can elaborate further on it.

Between 1898 to 1927 no team had more Premierships than Fitzroy.

 

[CrowToon]

You really do have zero understanding of the footy scene in Melbourne. So if Essendon or North Melbourne ever go bust, their former fans will support Carlton instead? A silly point really, you have no appreciation of the tribal loyalties that are part of supporting our clubs.

We've lost Fitzroy, and yet we have clubs like Gold Coast Suns and the GWS Giants in the competition. It doesn't matter how many clubs the AFL start up in Queensland and New South Wales, those states are rugby league territory. Always were and always will be.

Their former fans can do whatever the hell they like. They can switch teams, they can leave forever, perhaps they can follow whatever is left of the club as it joins a smalller league. If they are too proud to follow a new team then that is on them. It may seem an impossible situation but again, Fitzroy fans faced that same choice and guess what? The sky didn't fall in and the league didnt falter. Support has grown over time so don't give me your romanticised crap about tribal loyalties. That only exists so long as there is a tribe to be loyal to. My point is backed up by actual history, yours is what you imagine would happen at a time when no club is facing the axe. How dare someone like you take a seat on such a high pedestal when you have such an unrealistic and romanticised view of something.

Further, the Victorian market is tapped out. There are 10 teams and anyone who wanted to find a team could and would have chosen one. So why in the hell would they feel the need to bring back or create a new Victorian team? They wouldn't, it doesn't make sense.

So of course they will attack the high growth corridors in New South Wales and Queensland. There is money to be found and they will find it.

Check your arrogance at the door, your ability to form a logical argument doesn't back up your confidence in your own overinflated ability to do so.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Their former fans can do whatever the hell they like. They can switch teams, they can leave forever, perhaps they can follow whatever is left of the club as it joins a smalller league. If they are too proud to follow a new team then that is on them. It may seem an impossible situation but again, Fitzroy fans faced that same choice and guess what? The sky didn't fall in and the league didnt falter. Support has grown over time so don't give me your romanticised crap about tribal loyalties. That only exists so long as there is a tribe to be loyal to. My point is backed up by actual history, yours is what you imagine would happen at a time when no club is facing the axe. How dare someone like you take a seat on such a high pedestal when you have such an unrealistic and romanticised view of something.

Further, the Victorian market is tapped out. There are 10 teams and anyone who wanted to find a team could and would have chosen one. So why in the hell would they feel the need to bring back or create a new Victorian team? They wouldn't, it doesn't make sense.

So of course they will attack the high growth corridors in New South Wales and Queensland. There is money to be found and they will find it.

Check your arrogance at the door, your ability to form a logical argument doesn't back up your confidence in your own overinflated ability to do so.

I don't think it's arrogance, to think that Fitzroy were more deserving of a place in the AFL than the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants. I don't think the demand is there in Queensland and NSW to justify a second AFL club imo. It's not arrogance to have respect for things like history, heritage and tradition. btw The only person that seems to be sitting on the pedestal here is your good self!

 

[Roylion]

But I remember reading weeks or maybe months before the demise that the Fitzroy board went out that they are not as bad off as the media says.

Fitzroy were $2.7 million in debt in 1996 - a number which has since been dwarfed by the debt levels of some other clubs. It would equate to about a $4.83 million debt now.

$1.25 million of that was owed to one secured creditor, which was being serviced and wasn't due to be paid back until 2001

Did the fans get enough time to react to rally like the Bulldogs did?

Possibly not. Below is how it all panned out.

Fitzroy was actually profitable between 1993-1995. They were meeting their repayments to Nauru (debt wasn't due to be repaid in full until 2001) and paying their players. There were cash flow problems still, but the club was keeping its head above water. However poor onfield performances, due mainly to the fact that so many of their better players had gone elsewhere, really meant that Fitzroy needed to generate more income so that they could remain competitive with other AFL clubs. Not helping the situation was the fact the AFL's official policy was to remove a small Melbourne club so it could keep the competition at 16 teams, once Port Adelaide joined in 1997.

Fitzroy's offer to play seven home games in Canberra and generate extra income that way had been rejected by the AFL.

I posted the timeline for that earlier, but here it is again..

1995 - 27th May - Fitzroy played their Round 9 home game in Canberra against West Coast
1995 - 15th June - Ian Collins publicly supported Fitzroy's application to play four home games in Canberra in 1996, after application by Fitzroy was submitted (Malcolm Conn: The Australian)
1995 - 25th August - AFL commission rejected Fitzroy's application to play four home games in Canberra in Season 1996
1995 - 28th August - AFL Commissioner Ron Evans told Dyson Hore-Lacy that if Fitzroy were prepared to play the majority of its home games in Canberra, the Commission might look at it. Fitzroy had eleven home games, means that the "majority" was seven.
1995 - September - North Melbourne made a formal written merger proposal to Fitzroy
1995 - October - "AFL for Canberra" endeavours to meet with Fitzroy Football Club, the Ainslee Football Club, the ACT Chief Minister and the AFL commission to discuss a deal where Fitzroy (who had agreed to do so) might play up to seven home games in Canberra. Request for meeting was rejected by the AFL.
1996 - 21st February - Ross Oakley informs Dyson Hore-Lacy that the AFL would not support any initiative for Fitzroy to play any home games in Canberra. Oakley publicly calls Fitzroy their "weakest product" and that the Canberra initiative would not be "creditable".
1996 – March 6. Fitzroy board authorised board members Dyson Hore-Lacy, Elaine Findlay and Robert Johnstone to enter non-binding merger agreements with other AFL clubs.

So as you can see Fitzroy in early 1996 sought a merger with another Melbourne based club because they couldn't secure that extra $1 million in funding - $0.5 million to return to the Brunswick Street Oval and upgrade the facilities (agreed deal already successfully negotiated with the existing Fitzroy local council with $250,000 of that earmarked for stadium upgrade and a new gym built above the community rooms) and $0.5 million to attract players to make the club more competitive onfield, which in turn would hopefully generate more revenue.

To help get that $1 million the Nauru Insurance Company had originally agreed to lend a further $500,000 on top of their $1.25 million loan (which was to be secured by a floating charge over Fitzroy assets), but when the government of Nauru was changed at the end of November 1995, that offer was withdrawn. Had that offer gone ahead, Fitzroy would have moved to the Brunswick Street Oval as their official training base and developed a training base that would match those of other AFL clubs, thereby hopefully making the club a more attractive prospect to potential players as well as retaining their existing ones.

So after some fruitless attempts to find alternative sponsorship to make up for that loss, the Fitzroy board from March 1996 entered into merger discussions with a few clubs, (Adelaide, Geelong, Melbourne, Hawthorn, Richmond, Collingwood, Brisbane Bears, Footscray, Norwood, Port Adelaide) but North Melbourne was where the merger talks progressed the most.

Many of the Fitzroy faithful were coming to the conclusion that a merger was inevitable and that North Melbourne was probably the best merger partner to form what was going to be the "North Fitzroy Kangaroos". The AFL's preferred position, regularly articulated by the likes of Mike Sheahan in the media was that Fitzroy merge with the Brisbane Bears for "strategic reasons' or another interstate club such as Port Adelaide.

The AFL actually put a proposal for a joint venture between Fitzroy and Port Adelaide for the "Port Power Lions" to Fitzroy, so that the new entry would have a chance of a Melbourne supporter base.

"PPFC (Port Power Football Club) and FFC (Fitzroy Football Club) would enter into a joint venture agreement under which:

1. FFC would surrrender its licence to play in the AFL competition subject to "The Port Power Lions" being granted a new licence by the AFL.

2. PPFC and FFC would continue as independent entities with their own members and their own board of directors. However all members of the PPFC and FFC would automatically become members of the Port Power Lions. PPFC and FFC would retain their social clubs but they would carry the banners of the Port Power Lions. The net profit of each social club would be contributed to the 'Port Power Lions'."

Fitzroy rejected it outright. As Dyson Hore-Lacy said, "we weren't greatly interested in becoming the 'power lines'."

So over the course of the period April - June 1996, what the AFL did was manipulate the situation by refusing to guarantee Nauru (Fitzroy's only secured creditor) would be paid from the merger monies that were either going to be gifted to the Brisbane Bears, or to the new "North Fitzroy Kangaroos".

This is the important part as to why the administrator was finally appointed to Fitzroy.

North Melbourne (at the instigation of the AFL) refused to release any more than $550,000 of the $1.25 million owed to Nauru from the merger monies of the $6 million that the AFL had promised in the event of two clubs merging into a new club. The AFL were telling North Melbourne that if they held out, they wouldn't have to pay Fitzroy creditors at all and would receive all of the financial package ($6 million) for completion of this deal themselves,

This forced Fitzroy's only secured creditor the Nauru Insurance Company to take their own actions to try to recover the money owed to them. (not dure to be paid back by Fitzroy until 2001 remember)

So on the 28th June 1996 the Nauru Insurance Company appointed an administrator to Fitzroy pursuant to Part 5.3A (436C) of the Corporations Act. [Note this Act is dated to 2001 as it was updated from previous legislation which existed in 1996]

5.3A 436A of the Corporations Act states that a Company may appoint an administrator if the board of that company thinks it is or will become insolvent. Part 5.3A 436B states that a Liquidator may appoint an administrator while Part 5.3A 436C states that a secured party may appoint an administrator.

Note the bold of the last section, because this is what happened to Fitzroy.

"A person who is entitled to enforce a security interest in the whole, or substantially the whole, of a company's property may by writing appoint an administrator of the company if the security interest has become, and is still, enforceable."

On 25 July 1996, the creditors of the company (Fitzroy Football Club) resolved that Fitzroy should enter a Deed of Company Arrangement (instead of the creditor's other two choices permissable by the Corporations Act 2001 which was liquidation or ending the administration).

On 4 August 1996 a deed was executed by Fitzroy (controlled by Michael Brennan as administrator) and the Brisbane Bears Football Club Ltd. In consideration of Brisbane Bears Football Club Ltd. agreeing to pay or procure the payment of various amounts mentioned in the deed (such as paying Nauru's loan), and to provide certain indemnities, the administrator agreed to transfer all Fitzroy's operations and activities as an AFL club (including its football operations) to the Brisbane Bears with effect from 1 November 1996.

So in effect the Brisbane Bears purchased Fitzroy's AFL assets as pertaining to its Club Operations and the AFL added on some other bonuses such as priority (pre draft) access to eight players from Fitzroy's 1996 list, some AFL money (an AFL grant to aid its purchasing of Fitzroy's assets.)

As part of the deal, the administrator relinquished (voluntarily surrendered) Fitzroy Football Club's licence to compete in the AFL competition, effectively expelling them.

The AFL also gave permission for all its AFL owned trademarks (pertaining to Fitzroy) to be used by the Brisbane Bears Football Club from Season 1997 onwards and this was ratified by 14 of the 16 clubs on July 4th 1996 to come into effect on November 1st 1996. The Brisbane Bears subseqently re-branded their club identity and continued in the AFL as the "Brisbane Lions". Fitzroy Football Club left the VFL-AFL competition after 100 years of participation.

Only after the "merger" announcement on July 4th were Fitzroy fans sufficiently aggrieved to try and mount some opposition to the proposal. By then it was too late. Before then, they were relatively accepting of a North Melbourne merger, given that North in many ways was similar to Fitzroy in outlook and also geographically. The Fitzroy board and shareholders were supportive as well. That may or may not have continued once the branding of the new "North Fitzroy Kangaroos" had been unveiled.

 

[CrowToon]

I don't think it's arrogance, to think that Fitzroy were more deserving of a place in the AFL than the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants. I don't think the demand is there in Queensland and NSW to justify a second AFL club imo. It's not arrogance to have respect for things like history, heritage and tradition. btw The only person that seems to be sitting on the pedestal here is your good self!

A pedestal well deserved too. Now run along.

 

[Rob]

I don't think it's arrogance, to think that Fitzroy were more deserving of a place in the AFL than the Gold Coast Suns and GWS Giants. I don't think the demand is there in Queensland and NSW to justify a second AFL club imo. It's not arrogance to have respect for things like history, heritage and tradition. btw The only person that seems to be sitting on the pedestal here is your good self!

What about clubs like East Fremantle or Norwood though? Do you think Fitzroy deserved a spot in the national competition more than them?

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

What about clubs like East Fremantle or Norwood though? Do you think Fitzroy deserved a spot in the national competition more than them?

I have no issues with those clubs, or other clubs in the WAFL and SANFL either.

I certainly wouldn't be of the opinion, that the clubs you named deserved a spot in the AFL more than Fitzroy, but at least both Western and South Australia are genuine footy states imo.

 

[Deadly Darcy]

Their former fans can do whatever the hell they like. They can switch teams, they can leave forever, perhaps they can follow whatever is left of the club as it joins a smalller league. If they are too proud to follow a new team then that is on them. It may seem an impossible situation but again, Fitzroy fans faced that same choice and guess what? The sky didn't fall in and the league didnt falter. Support has grown over time so don't give me your romanticised crap about tribal loyalties. That only exists so long as there is a tribe to be loyal to. My point is backed up by actual history, yours is what you imagine would happen at a time when no club is facing the axe. How dare someone like you take a seat on such a high pedestal when you have such an unrealistic and romanticised view of something.

Further, the Victorian market is tapped out. There are 10 teams and anyone who wanted to find a team could and would have chosen one. So why in the hell would they feel the need to bring back or create a new Victorian team? They wouldn't, it doesn't make sense.

So of course they will attack the high growth corridors in New South Wales and Queensland. There is money to be found and they will find it.

Check your arrogance at the door, your ability to form a logical argument doesn't back up your confidence in your own overinflated ability to do so.

So if Adelaide were forced to fold you’d be ok to follow Port Adelaide?

It’s a massive shame that the AFL wasn’t mature enough as an entity to look to equalisation back when Fitzroy folded. It’s a huge part of history that was wiped and I feel aweful for supporters who may have supported them for 50 years and never got the chance to see a flag as the bigger clubs just dominated by buying players from the smaller ones. The modern system is so much better for supporters of all clubs who can genuinely believe they’ll get a shot if their club is well run and they have good recruiters. Essendon is a case in point where poor management, an entitled (and average recruiter) and a desire to fast-track a flag has overridden the advantages of a big supporter base. If Fitzroy had made it through to today they would have as good a chance as anyone to see a flag. I’m glad Brisbane got their 3 peat though as I know some of the old Royboys got some solace out of that.

 

[Rob]

I have no issues with those clubs, or other clubs in the WAFL and SANFL either.

I certainly wouldn't be of the opinion, that the clubs you named deserved a spot in the AFL more than Fitzroy, but at least both Western and South Australia are genuine footy states imo.

Then i'd have to ask - why not? What is your criteria for being deserving of a spot?

Is it just by historical accident that by being part of the VFL a club therefore deserves a spot in the AFL?

 

[Roylion]

So if Adelaide were forced to fold you’d be ok to follow Port Adelaide?

Adelaide actually offered to merge with Fitzroy.

 

[Roylion]

Yes of course.

I wasn't sure if you meant Lions supporters or Fitzroy supporters

Usually it's 'Roys' or 'Reds.'

 

[CrowToon]

So if Adelaide were forced to fold you’d be ok to follow Port Adelaide?

It’s a massive shame that the AFL wasn’t mature enough as an entity to look to equalisation back when Fitzroy folded. It’s a huge part of history that was wiped and I feel aweful for supporters who may have supported them for 50 years and never got the chance to see a flag as the bigger clubs just dominated by buying players from the smaller ones. The modern system is so much better for supporters of all clubs who can genuinely believe they’ll get a shot if their club is well run and they have good recruiters. Essendon is a case in point where poor management, an entitled (and average recruiter) and a desire to fast-track a flag has overridden the advantages of a big supporter base. If Fitzroy had made it through to today they would have as good a chance as anyone to see a flag. I’m glad Brisbane got their 3 peat though as I know some of the old Royboys got some solace out of that.

I don't have to automatically follow Port Adelaide. I could support any other club or not at all.

 

[terrybull]

I wasn't sure if you meant Lions supporters or Fitzroy supporters

Usually it's 'Roys' or 'Reds.'

Yeah I forgot that there was a merger with University Reds. Or was it a take over?

How is the Red’s history treated?

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

A pedestal well deserved too. Now run along.

Hmm is silly one liners all you have to offer to the debate? Dare i say it, but i get the impression that you're on the wind up here.

 

[Irish BlueBagger]

Then i'd have to ask - why not? What is your criteria for being deserving of a spot?

Is it just by historical accident that by being part of the VFL a club therefore deserves a spot in the AFL?

I'm not in favour of Victoria losing anymore clubs. I just think Fitzroy could have been saved if the AFL wanted to save them, it's blatantly obvious that the AFL didn't want to save them though. They were desperate to kill Fitzroy off.

I just think clubs like GWS Giants and the Gold Coast Suns, should have been located in the Northern Territory and Tasmania instead imo.

One club is enough i think for both Queensland and New South Wales. Western Australia and South Australia are different, they are fully fledged footy states so two clubs per state is fine there. I don't think you could claim that the AFL is a national competition, until we have a team in every state imo.

 

[CrowToon]

Hmm is silly one liners all you have to offer to the debate? Dare i say it, but i get the impression that you're on the wind up here.

No, it is clear that I made my point and nothing you offered in return said anything at all except to espouse the value of tradition as if we need to carry dead weight because they had a good run in the first half of last century. Wow.