Quarter of a century without Fitzroy: Is the AFL better or worse off?

[Coolangatta]

All the Commission can do is encourage. Any club not owned by the AFL cannot be forced to merge or relocate against their will.

Yes, and I think they should encourage, should we find ourselves some clubs that are not in a good position going forward. That goes for the Suns and Giants give but them another ten years at the very least.

I wouldn't fold anyone, what happened to Fitzroy is sad. But I'd be looking at say, moving the Suns to NQLD or the Giants to Canberra if they aren't doing well. But just like North they can refuse if they want to and keep battling where they want.

 

[Kwality]

Maybe. That doesn't the change the fact that the AFL cannot force any club it does not own to merge or relocate.

As we stand its true.
As I said ' the VFL with bandaids' & it will continue to limit the competition.

 

[Kwality]

No problem when we have 20 teams.

P.S. Expansion grows the talent pool, I doubt Vics will always be producing half the games players in the future.

Grows the numbers only, not the talent pool.

 

[Coolangatta]

Grows the numbers only, not the talent pool.

Dunno. It seems like the players aren't as skilled anymore but there's been more drafting of athletes rather than natural footballers and they don't have as much time to execute skills as in the past. Talent seems to be breaking even, at least.

Even players are buying into the great AFL expansion myth. This is why they’re wrong

The BIG problem with AFL’s great expansion myth

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Kwality]

Dunno. It seems like the players aren't as skilled anymore but there's been more drafting of athletes rather than natural footballers and they don't have as much time to execute skills as in the past. Talent seems to be breaking even, at least.

Even players are buying into the great AFL expansion myth. This is why they’re wrong

The BIG problem with AFL’s great expansion myth

www.foxsports.com.au

The top 1000 aren't more talented than the next 500, as an example ?

 

[Dirty Bird]

AFL? I dont know
But Adelaide's worse off

 

[Kwality]

AFL? I dont know
But Adelaide's worse off

You wouldn't want to have lived through using 47 players in one season as the Eagles did last year.

Not an excuse, its fact.

 

[Coolangatta]

AFL? I dont know
But Adelaide's worse off

The WAFL and SANFL are.

The VFL is still going fine.

 

[Dirty Bird]

You wouldn't want to have lived through using 47 players in one season as the Eagles did last year.

Not an excuse, its fact.

You missed my point.

My point was that without Fitzroy, the AFL put Port Adelaide into the league.

Therefore 70% of Adelaide has to suffer.

 

[Coolangatta]

Maybe. That doesn't the change the fact that the AFL cannot force any club it does not own to merge or relocate.

Do the AFL own the Suns and Giants?

 

[jarrod_island_doggies]

The point of mentioning being a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club, is that I was a shareholder of the Fitzroy Football Club in 1996 and I am a shareholder of the very same club in 2023.

At no point have I been a shareholder of the Brisbane Lions. No serving director of the Fitzroy Football Club has ever served on the Brisbane Lions board. The Brisbane Bears took the chairman and the vice chairman of the Fitzroy Football Club to court at the end of 1996 (which the Bears lost) and went so far as to place a registered charge against the Fitzroy Football Club (who they had supposedly 'merged' with) for the Nauru debt, which wasn't removed until 1999.

It's clear from that alone there was no merger.

And I say that as a supporter of the Brisbane Lions since 1997. Been a member every year up to now. Went to all four Grand Finals between 2001-2004. Bought thousands of dollars (maybe tens of thousands) worth of Brisbane Lions merchandise since then. Watch them on TV every weekend. Attend their matches in Melbourne. Even flown to Tasmania to watch them down there.

That still doesn't make it a merger.



The Deed of Arrangement is very clear.

From the Deed definitions. "Merged Club" means Brisbane Bears.."

The Bears rebranding and acquiring some pieces of memorabilia and some football equipment ("Club Operations") is not a merger. Fitzroy had no "Club Operations" after their licence to compete in the AFL was surrendered by the administrator. Everything that was transferred to the Bears was acquired by the Bears with the connivance of the Adminstrator. AFL owned intellectual property pertaining to Fitzroy was allocated to the Brisbane Bears by the AFL.




I'm very happy to go over all this again, if you like.

 

[Toump Ass]

...

What a massive load of crap that wall of text is, just look at it.

"At no point have I been a shareholder of the Brisbane Lions... It's clear from that alone there was no merger"

Amazing that people swallow that up, honestly.

 

[Roylion]

What a massive load of crap that wall of text is, just look at it.

"At no point have I been a shareholder of the Brisbane Lions... It's clear from that alone there was no merger"

Amazing that people swallow that up, honestly.

Proves categorically that the Brisbane Lions and the Fitzroy Football Club were - and remain to this day - different football clubs.

 

[Toump Ass]

Proves categorically that the Brisbane Lions and the Fitzroy Football Club were - and remain to this day - different football clubs.

Fitzroy Football Club statement describing it as a merger suggests otherwise, but "you do you!" as my mum says.

 

[Coolangatta]

In any case, the Lions are certainly Fitzroy inspired. I was just a kid when they were the Bears and never really cared for them until they became the Lions.

Fitzroy aren’t coming back, what’s done is done. There’s not going to be a repeat of that unless a club agrees to a relocation.

Can’t see a merger ever happening. Only one that’d have a chance is the Roodogs (North-WB) because of the colours and mascots can mesh together quite well. Even then the fans would probably hate it.

 

[Roylion]

Fitzroy Football Club statement describing it as a merger suggests otherwise, but "you do you!" as my mum says.

So you're suggesting that the Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy Football Clubs are the one club?

despite the

• ASIC records that prove they are both seperate operating current entities with different corporate structures
• the 1996 Deed of Arrangement stating that the "merged club" is in fact the Brisbane Bears
• the court case of 2010 Brisbane Lions vs. Fitzroy FC confirming they are separate clubs
• the Brisbane Lions themselves arguing the clubs were separate in that the Fitzroy Football Club was a club with a "shrinking if not vanishing supporter base that sought to meddle in the business of a current AFL club". (Brisbane Lions' barrister, Rodney Garratt QC, March 2nd 2010) and then went on to "wish the Fitzroy Football Club all the best in the VAFA." at the conclusion of the mediation talks.
• No Fitzroy director from 1996 supports the notion that there was an actual merger.
• The AFL doesn't even include Fitzroy's VFL-AFL records as part of their Brisbane Lions official AFL records. Yet the Brisbane Bears records are included as part of the Brisbane Lions records and the AFL regards the club as having started in 1987.

If you're happy to go along with what AFL marketing wants you to believe, then good luck to you. The Brisbane Lions of course, as an AFL entity and also to continue to foster a Melbourne supporter base, market it as a merger as well.

 

[Roylion]

In any case, the Lions are certainly Fitzroy inspired.

That they are. I've never disputed that. Hence my support for them.

2023 Brisbane Lions member.

 

[Dirty Bird]

In any case, the Lions are certainly Fitzroy inspired. I was just a kid when they were the Bears and never really cared for them until they became the Lions.

Fitzroy aren’t coming back, what’s done is done. There’s not going to be a repeat of that unless a club agrees to a relocation.

Can’t see a merger ever happening. Only one that’d have a chance is the Roodogs (North-WB) because of the colours and mascots can mesh together quite well. Even then the fans would probably hate it.

What I learnt is that it's bs to merge interstate teams. Especially in a growing league.

If there's to be a merge, it almost exclusively needs to be among North/Bulldogs/Melbourne/Saints. Keep them together at the bare minimum so the fans of both clubs can see them at least the 11 home games. BS how Fitzroy fans were screwed (from both perspectives)

 

[Coolangatta]

That they are. I've never disputed that. Hence my support for them.

2023 Brisbane Lions member.

Good lad. Got a good feeling we’ll get that flag by season’s end.

Which probably means we’ll miss top four and bomb out week one.

 

[Toump Ass]

So you're suggesting that the Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy Football Clubs are the one club?

I'm not suggesting anything Roy. Just pointing out that the Fitzroy Football Club and the Brisbane Lions released a statement in 2010 which said:

"The two clubs have agreed that the side-on Fitzroy-style Lion symbolically represents the historic merger between the Bears and Fitzroy and the first 13 years of the Brisbane Lions competing in the AFL."

"Since the 1996 merger..."

If you're happy to go along with what AFL marketing wants you to believe

Who are we to argue with the Fitzroy Football Club themselves?
Of course if you're happy to believe fairy tales then be my guest. That's fine Roy, people believe all sorts of imaginary things.

Edit: added some nice extra formatting just to make things nice and clear

 

[Coolangatta]

What I learnt is that it's bs to merge interstate teams. Especially in a growing league.

If there's to be a merge, it almost exclusively needs to be among North/Bulldogs/Melbourne/Saints. Keep them together at the bare minimum so the fans of both clubs can see them at least the 11 home games. BS how Fitzroy fans were screwed (from both perspectives)

Yeah, like I said, North-Dogs is the only one I think could work. Things get messy over colours and mascots and club songs/names, it isn’t just location. But things have to go wrong for both of them to make the offer even contemplative.

Giants to Canberra is about the only interstate move that could due to affiliation. Again, depends on how they go.

Suns to North Queensland a possibility too but would need a rebranding as the Sharks imo.

Or just go a little up north to reboot as the Sunshine Coast Suns should they fail.

 

[Roylion]

I'm not suggesting anything Roy. Just pointing out that the Fitzroy Football Club and the Brisbane Lions released a statement in 2010 which said:

"The two clubs have agreed that the side-on Fitzroy-style Lion symbolically represents the historic merger between the Bears and Fitzroy and the first 13 years of the Brisbane Lions competing in the AFL."

"Since the 1996 merger..."

That is a Brisbane Lions statement.


From the AFL site.
Brisbane Lions settle logo dispute with Fitzroy


And here from the Brisbane Lions site

Brisbane Lions and Fitzroy reach settlement

Marketing.

I was in fairly constant contact with members of the Fitzroy Football Club board in 2010 (and who were taking the Brisbane Lions to court) when the court case was happening and none of them regarded the events of 1996 as a "merger".

They still don't.

That's fine Roy, people believe all sorts of imaginary things.

That you do. Marketing works very well on some.

 

[Toump Ass]

That is a Brisbane Lions statement.

Same same.

 

[Roylion]

Same same.

THe Brisbane Lions (established 1987) and the Fitzroy Football Club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) are different clubs.

As I've proven over and over again.

 

[Toump Ass]

The Brisbane Lions (established 1987) and the Fitzroy Football Club (established 1883 - 140 years old this year) are different clubs

Brisbane Lions call it a merger, AFL call it a merger, the vast majority of AFL supporters call it a merger, hell. Even a lot of Fitzroy and Brisbane supporters do too.

Whether it's technically a merger or an acquisition or something else entirely, irrelevant to all but a very insignificant few.

It's a shame we won't be here to bicker over the minor details of the merger document forever.