Questions about Pro Cycling - Tactics, rules and so forth

[Dipper]

I've always followed most sports but the Tour is something that I never really understood too well, over the last few years I've started taking an interest and have a built up a basic understanding of how it works, the tactics and some of the main portagonists.

I often read the comments on here and it seems that there are a fair few of you with a good knowledge and I find it pretty helpful to read the comments that are made on each stage.

The one thing that I'm still not entirely sure of is the effect of having a team around you on the mountain stages, somebody posted yesterday about Wiggins (who I understand isn't thought of as the best of climbers) being able to have his team drag him up the mountains and this was what would make it tough for Evans to take much time out of him.

When we talk about being dragged up a mountain by your team is there actually any energy saving going on being behind your teammates like there is on the flat or is it more of a support/psychological/pacing thing that we're talking about.

My assumption was that it's in the mountains that you're exposed and there' s a limit to what your team can do to help you.

Any answers would be much appreciated.

 

[no1bankteller]

The one thing that I'm still not entirely sure of is the effect of having a team around you on the mountain stages, somebody posted yesterday about Wiggins (who I understand isn't thought of as the best of climbers) being able to have his team drag him up the mountains and this was what would make it tough for Evans to take much time out of him.

The way I look at the assistance is three fold:

1) It allows you the ability to set the tempo in hope that it can be high enough for some of direct competitors are not able to withstand prolonged effort and would make them "punch drunk" come the moutains.

2) Allows them to send a solid climber into the break to provide a respite to the main GC contender in the last say 20 or so km by allowing him to have someone help them out, and

3) Probably the most significant assistance is if you have two serious contenders in your team than they can beat up on the competition by constantly attacking until the competition breaks and one of them manages to escape. This is what Andy and Frank used to do and what team CSC did with Frank and Carlos Sastre to Evans in 2008 with great success.

 

[Buzzasto DaSilva]

Another benefit, is if your main GC contender is having a bad day, then a strong team-mate can help drag them up the mountain and limit time losses. Last night was a very good example of this, when Schleck got dropped fairly early and he had Haimar Zubeldia drop off the main group and pace him up most of the climb- or at least until Frank started feeling a bit better. Considering how early he got dropped, he did a pretty good job to limit his losses and I think Zubeldia was instrumental in this.

 

[blue gunslinger]

always amazes me when they say so and so from team whatever now holding up the peleton. I know why they do it but perplexes me that it works

 

[monty1104]

When talking about teamwork in mountains, I always think of Liquigas. Ivan Basso is a really strong climber, but he struggles to match any big accelerations. If someone attacks him, he just keeps up his pace and claws his way back. This is where his team helps. His team mates will bury themselves to keep a high, constant pace for Basso. They cant do it for as long as Basso can, but if 3 of them can do it for 1km each (or longer), then that is a big chunk of a climb where Basso has kept the pace of the peleton at a speed that he is comfortable with. Hopefully it will have been too high for some riders and he has managed to get rid of some of his rivals. Same goes with Wiggins. He is a good climber that struggles to match accelerations, so Sky will keep the pace at a pace that Wiggins likes, but is high enough to discourage accelerations, and shell weaker riders out the back.

 

[Wallaby]

If you haven't done much riding in the mountains, you don't realise how valuable it is having someone set a (slightly) faster pace for you. There is a definite advantage in having someone just in front of you setting a solid tempo (and wind resistance is negligible below about 20ks).

As a MAMIL (Middle-aged-man-in-lycra) weekend warrior in the Dandenongs I am always doing the slow solo grind uphill - until someone passes me, and provided they are not t-o-o-o-o fast, I always latch on for a tow. It's surprising how how much you really have in reserve.

So if you have a team of climbers, they can take it in turns to gice you a tow - when one fails, the next takes over.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Also helfpful to kick someone off their bike should you snap a chain or puncture a tyre

 

[Dipper]

Thanks for all your answers, much appreciated.

 

[blue gunslinger]

always wonder what happens in the tunnels- if any riders are smart asses and do wolf whistles train sounds boogie mans etc? I know I think too much

 

[blackcat]

always wonder what happens in the tunnels- if any riders are smart asses and do wolf whistles train sounds boogie mans etc? I know I think too much

1. psychological relief.

you still need the legs.

Biggest advantage, is they set the speed according to YOUR tactics. Good day, ramp it up, try to drom themz sob's.
Bad day, pull back, and try and close down dangerous moves, while you do the metronome thingie.

Two types (glib generality) go uphill. And it has been alluded to.
1. The metronomes, who can put out a reasonable wattage, but cannot handle the accelerations.
2. The guys that dance on their pedals. Think Ricco. And siwtch the tempo like a lightbulb.

I lost a much longer post, but we are thereabouts. And most of the cats above, contributed, and were somprehensive before my (redundant) effort.

cheers

 

[yeah_nah_yeah]

OK, so Cadel currently is almost 4 minutes behind the lead, can someone explain the tactics of him getting back into the lead (i gather it is really not possible at this stage).
What I don't get is this; Wiggins was just at the back of the peleton, why doesn't Cadel and his team see this and then make a break? Would the break be too hard to contain?
Also, most of the time, the peleton looks as though they are ambling along with Wiggins and his team holding the pace, i would have thought that if you want to win the tour, you would need to make wiggins and his team work harder. It just looks like everyone has given up already!

Sorry for my noob cycling knowledge.

 

[monty1104]

OK, so Cadel currently is almost 4 minutes behind the lead, can someone explain the tactics of him getting back into the lead (i gather it is really not possible at this stage).
What I don't get is this; Wiggins was just at the back of the peleton, why doesn't Cadel and his team see this and then make a break? Would the break be too hard to contain?
Also, most of the time, the peleton looks as though they are ambling along with Wiggins and his team holding the pace, i would have thought that if you want to win the tour, you would need to make wiggins and his team work harder. It just looks like everyone has given up already!

Sorry for my noob cycling knowledge.

Theoretically, Cadel will always lose time to Wiggins on timetrials, so he needs to try to attack on climbs. This doesn't look like it will work however due to lack of form on Cadel's part, and Team Sky looking unbeatable.

As for Evans not attacking, it is just a gentleman's agreement kind of thing. You don't attack when an opponent has a flat, has a fall, has a mechanical, needs to take a piss etc.

 

[chargers 09]

When talking about teamwork in mountains, I always think of Liquigas. Ivan Basso is a really strong climber, but he struggles to match any big accelerations. If someone attacks him, he just keeps up his pace and claws his way back. This is where his team helps. His team mates will bury themselves to keep a high, constant pace for Basso. They cant do it for as long as Basso can, but if 3 of them can do it for 1km each (or longer), then that is a big chunk of a climb where Basso has kept the pace of the peleton at a speed that he is comfortable with. Hopefully it will have been too high for some riders and he has managed to get rid of some of his rivals. Same goes with Wiggins. He is a good climber that struggles to match accelerations, so Sky will keep the pace at a pace that Wiggins likes, but is high enough to discourage accelerations, and shell weaker riders out the back.

Evans is somewhat similar in that he isn't a great accelerator.

 

[monty1104]

Evans is somewhat similar in that he isn't a great accelerator.

Compared to Basso and Wiggins, Evans is very attacking. He is somewhat middle of the pack when it comes to attacking. For example he isn't as attacking as Nibali, Schlecks, Contador or Van den Broeck.

 

[blackcat]

OK, so Cadel currently is almost 4 minutes behind the lead, can someone explain the tactics of him getting back into the lead (i gather it is really not possible at this stage).
What I don't get is this; Wiggins was just at the back of the peleton, why doesn't Cadel and his team see this and then make a break? Would the break be too hard to contain?
Also, most of the time, the peleton looks as though they are ambling along with Wiggins and his team holding the pace, i would have thought that if you want to win the tour, you would need to make wiggins and his team work harder. It just looks like everyone has given up already!

Sorry for my noob cycling knowledge.

slipstream slipstream slipstream
only certain "parcours" or the topography of the route, are possible to get "time" when you are riding against a strong team. Think "nose in the wind, fighting the aerodynamics and profile of the single body breaking the air at the front of the peloton". Make sense, not really. Just means, about 6 riders from Sky, swapping off on the front of a flat or rolling stage (small little climbs) will always have the "slipstream" advantages of being able to pull back individual riders who pose a threat on GC. So, opportunities restricted to steepish HC (hors category - hardest categorised climbs) ascents, or the final ascent (be it Alpe d'Huez or just a 3rd or 4th category etc) and the Queen Stage, with multiple HC climbs and descents, where the slipstream advantages are nullified.

If you wanna attack on a downhill, best the finish is within 10 kms of the descent, or at most, 20 kms, otherwise the attack, or descent will be neutralised. Think Paolo Savoldelli, but he never attacked on a descent that was 30km out, unless he had someone like Cancellara, to swap off with ath the front, so he did not have to doa 30km tt on a road bike, solo, to the finish.

I could go on an on, and bore you silly

 

[blackcat]

w

Theoretically, Cadel will always lose time to Wiggins on timetrials, so he needs to try to attack on climbs. This doesn't look like it will work however due to lack of form on Cadel's part, and Team Sky looking unbeatable.

As for Evans not attacking, it is just a gentleman's agreement kind of thing. You don't attack when an opponent has a flat, has a fall, has a mechanical, needs to take a piss etc.

apart from Dauphine before this year, Evans would never lose out to Wiggins in the chrono.

#father time

 

[blackcat]

always wonder what happens in the tunnels- if any riders are smart asses and do wolf whistles train sounds boogie mans etc? I know I think too much

banal Freud reference to tunnel travel. Think, Darren Millane, little Bourke Street, The Tunnel :d

 

[blue gunslinger]

banal Freud reference to tunnel travel. Think, Darren Millane, little Bourke Street, The Tunnel :d

more prankster than Freud. I just would not be able to stop myself but sometimes a train IS a cigar

 

[yeah_nah_yeah]

Thanks for the posts, clears things up somewhat. I guess this year is not the year for Cadel.
It's funny that the tour is run over 3 weeks and Cadel cant make up a lousy 4 minutes.

 

[blue gunslinger]

wonder if there will be any "visits" to any teams on this rest day

 

[blackcat]

more prankster than Freud. I just would not be able to stop myself but sometimes a train IS a cigar

and Blue Velvet and Hopper and amyl nitrate, and Lewinsky, I mean rosselini

how kind and omnipresent foresight to don an suit of azzure velvet ML

 

[blackcat]

Thanks for the posts, clears things up somewhat. I guess this year is not the year for Cadel.
It's funny that the tour is run over 3 weeks and Cadel cant make up a lousy 4 minutes.

Its a race course rigged to Sky.

But father time catches up to all. And Evans now has a young family.

priorities.

the only thing remaining that could top his career, is a LBL win. Perhaps an Aus title in a few years, if he joins greenedge and commits to domestique duties. Would not be hard to rig that race with the weight on numbers on his side. Phenomenal career. Considering the size of the sport, if takes on Bradmanesque proportions.

 

[chargers 09]

Thanks for the posts, clears things up somewhat. I guess this year is not the year for Cadel.
It's funny that the tour is run over 3 weeks and Cadel cant make up a lousy 4 minutes.

Plus the Tour is only a small portion of the cycling season, just the only tour the media pays any serious attention too.

 

[bunky]

Plus the Tour is only a small portion of the cycling season, just the only tour the media pays any serious attention too.

It's also an Olympic year. from memory - Cadel came 11th or something in the road race at Beijing (Mick Rogers finished 5th). This could be one thing that he has on the Agenda, having never given it a real shake. But then again the course for London is picture perfect for Cav.

The issue in my mind with Cadel's tour this year is the timing of his attacks. The attack BMC orchestrated with TJ going up the road and Cadel not long after was perfect. Cadel didn't have the legs in him to follow TJ's wheel and evidently failed to gap the sky train before the top of the Glandon. I think if he had waited until the second to last climb - pulled off the same attack but say 3km's from the summit, then he could have gapped the sky train (15-20 seconds) and increased the lead on the descent.

Agree that Cadel in comparison to Wiggo is an attacking Machine - but generally Cadel doesn't attack more so follow the wheels of Contador and Schleck. I'm hoping Cadel goes all out tonight, makes the most of the downhill finish and pulls back a minute or so - and makes Sky spend some biscuits to limit the time loss!

 

[blackcat]

It's also an Olympic year. from memory - Cadel came 11th or something in the road race at Beijing (Mick Rogers finished 5th). This could be one thing that he has on the Agenda, having never given it a real shake. But then again the course for London is picture perfect for Cav.

For Aus, London is too flat for anyone other than a chancer.

Gerrans could get in a lucky move. So could Goss.

Sagan or Cav or Canc will win the rr, maybe Boonen