Quickest Bowlers? Today or Yesteryear?

Which bowlers are quicker?

  • Today

    Votes: 25 36.8%

  • Yesteryear

    Votes: 22 32.4%

  • About the same over time

    Votes: 21 30.9%
  • Total voters
    68

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Doss said:
I do find that a bit questionable.

How can one person have bowled nigh on 20km/h faster than anyone else has managed?

Put it this way, people like Tait/Lee/Akhtar/Starc have all managed to get to 160-161, but none of them have managed to get even 2-3 faster than that and push 163-164.

And yet Thomson gave 180 a nudge? Hmm.
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Exactly. It's just a tale now that's got more elaborate the more it's told. Few old boys catching putting some genuine tax on it to get the juices flowing for the crowd.

As you say, I think the genuinely fast bowlers I've seen are Akhtar, Lee, Starc and Tait. I've seen the speedo hit 160 for all of them. I just can't believe anything at 180, nor 170 for that matter.
 
demondavey said:
I just can't believe they wore that heat without a helmet. It's unbelievable that Phillip Hughes was killed wearing a helmet, yet for decades these guys faced heat far faster than what Abbott slung down.

That second delivery was scary, he actually took his eye off it for a millisecond.
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Honestly back in the day very few guys got hit in the head. There's a wide held theory that because they didn't wear helmets, they were way batter at getting out of the way. These days players hit front foot pull shots off fast bowlers because they have the protective gear.

Also, Old Mikey "I'm cool man" Holding had a serious vicious streak. He's basically trying to kill Close and would have kept trying if the Ump hadn't stepped in.
 

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Papa G said:
Honestly back in the day very few guys got hit in the head. There's a wide held theory that because they didn't wear helmets, they were way batter at getting out of the way. These days players hit front foot pull shots off fast bowlers because they have the protective gear.

Also, Old Mikey "I'm cool man" Holding had a serious vicious streak. He's basically trying to kill Close and would have kept trying if the Ump hadn't stepped in.
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That's a good point, these days they just don't care about getting hit, they'll play it from anywhere. Maybe in the old days they were actually better at avoiding those balls.

Yeah Holding was fast, personally from looking at his action and Thompson's action, I reckon Holding was quicker. He was just smoother with beautiful rhythm.
 
Adelaide Hawk said:
The thing to remember is these days pace is measured from the hand, whereas it was measured over the full 22 yards under the old system. Today's quicks are pretty quick, anyone from 145+ is damned quick, but Thommo was the quickest. The amazing thing about Thommo was, even after he damaged his shoulder, he was still quicker than any other bowler in the world including Holding, Imran, etc. Makes you wonder how quick he was before the shoulder injury, and how quick he would have been measured under the current system. I'm guessing if the Starcs and Cummins' can get into the mid-high 150s on occasion, Thommo would have been nearing the 170s.
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170? You're actually kidding....
 
demondavey said:
Thompson was nowhere near 170km per hour...... that is just ridiculous.
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Well Thompson for North I am sure would not even touch 145 km/h.
But Jeff Thomson hit 170km/h? Do not even have a doubt given everything I seen in my life of many bowlers.

My only question in my own mind is did he go much over 170km/h? Just a pity we do not have the type of readings we do now to measure what he must have been like at his very fastest before shoulder injury in mid 70's.

Most of my live watching of Thommo was in the early 1980's and I doubt around then he was much beyond 145km/h in most games I saw for him as a veteran. But when I see pre-injury I can see it is so much quicker it is not even funny.

I did get a glimpse of what he could do though, live one day even though this well past his prime a spell still sticks in my mind decades later. I was watching some state on day game on channel 9 one day of WA v Queensland. Graeme Wood was batting. A notorious hooker of the ball that got out often that way. He had faced the might of West Indies with 4 quicks at international level but this day in one spell I never seen him look so scared. For whatever reason Thommo must have not been feeling any lingering tightness or soreness in his shoulder in this spell and he was sending down stuff I not seen before or since. Wood looked like he was fearing for his life. I'd never seen him this openly scared. This was only one quick, not 4 , and yet this was something crazy going on out there and Thommo was making ball fly past his head. Fastest stuff I seen and I know this was not even Thommo at his quickest from 5 to 6 years earlier but it did give me an insight into thinking, s**t if he can do this today, wonder how quick he was back in those days? Obviously no radar gun there but given the Tait, Akhtar and Lee stuff I saw touching 160km/h at their quickest, I am tipping Thommo must have had at least 10km/h more than these guys at minimum in this match bowling to Wood. The thing for me on detecting relative speed with eyes is could watch someone like Brett Lee as seen all his career and there were days where even before seeing speed on screen could tell his was hitting a peak speed. The day we were playing semi-final of world cup v Sri Lanka I knew this was Lee at absolute top pace. I do not need the gun to tell me but when I did look at the speed it confirmed my own sense of speed I was watching was very good. So I do trust what I watch. The quickest spell I seen ever was the McDonald's cup match that I spoke of against Wood. Holding also had a very quick spell v Australia at Gabba in about 1979. Now for mine, Holding has Lee, Akhtar and Tait covered but from what I saw Thommo was even beyond that in McDonald's Cup game.

Now the thing for me is knowing that, in itself was clearly at time well past Thommo at his quickest I have no doubt he would have been even quicker by some margin in the the 1975 to 78 stuff I was not around to see. I cannot see how him not reaching 170km/h on video highlights of small samples that we cannot even be sure was his quickest. Colin Croft a fast bowler himself that seen all the Windies quicks, clearly states what he saw in West Indies of Thommo was clearly the quickest. To me it is overwhelming that if he was clearly quicker and on tv not hard to pick up when one bowler is 10km/h quicker than others, I reckon if Holding just over 160km/h add 10 at least and we hit that mark.

Then also add in he was measured at such speeds on days he openly said we not his quickest and what guys say that know how it was measured different to now, you can add the 10% factor that some of them talk about in the measurement and 10% of 160 km/h is 16km/h.
Add 16 km/h to the 160 km/h to give ball park figure of how it might have been measured with the way they do it now and that itself says 176km/h. That is already past 170km/h.

So going by looking with my own eye in real time of many spells over the years and listening players that faced the Holding, Roberts, Lilllee's etc. and thinking about how the difference in speed measurement taken. I find 170km/h very easy to believe as likely. For me it is just a matter of how much over.


I do not believe he was 20 km/h quicker at top pace than other quicks I have seen, but everything I seen and heard points towards 10km/h quicker comfortably. Given I know for sure Holding, Tait, Lee, Akhtar and probably another half dozen would got to or past 160km/h, anything but ridiculous.

However, what each person thinks is up to their own eyes of judging pace. I know from watching cricket with others that some people for whatever reason cannot pick up the relative pace of different bowlers with their own eyes. Some can be watching what I am seeing I sense 140km/h to 145 km/h and heard a few times people think it is 158 or something and they are shocked when I say nah, and sure enough the readings not even 150km/h. Other times I am saying myself this spell is over 150km/h and tracking 155km/h and they cannot tell, and more often than not I see reading on screen of the ball I such seen in that region of pace I was thinking it looked. So I trust my own judgement even before readings were common place, that my judgement was at least as good back then too.

There are other cricket watchers I been with watching on tv and they have a decent read on speed with their own eyes too. But I am aware there are plenty that do not and think their only way of knowing for sure is what the few readings been recorded over long history can tell them. For these types only the readings of last decade and a half with measurement devices of this time do they trust. Fair enough if that is all you want to go on to make your own opinions.
 
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The radar lies a little the tall guys are rated a little slower.

Waqar and Shoaib and Lee and Donald were quick. Patterson was lightning.

But Thommo was the quickest. Marshall, Holding not far off.

Tall guys like Ambrose and Garner quicker than a radar would say.
 
footyfan78 said:
Well Thompson for North I am sure would not even touch 145 km/h.
But Jeff Thomson hit 170km/h? Do not even have a doubt given everything I seen in my life of many bowlers.

My only question in my own mind is did he go much over 170km/h? Just a pity we do not have the type of readings we do now to measure what he must have been like at his very fastest before shoulder injury in mid 70's.

Most of my live watching of Thommo was in the early 1980's and I doubt around then he was much beyond 145km/h in most games I saw for him as a veteran. But when I see pre-injury I can see it is so much quicker it is not even funny.

I did get a glimpse of what he could do though, live one day even though this well past his prime a spell still sticks in my mind decades later. I was watching some state on day game on channel 9 one day of WA v Queensland. Graeme Wood was batting. A notorious hooker of the ball that got out often that way. He had faced the might of West Indies with 4 quicks at international level but this day in one spell I never seen him look so scared. For whatever reason Thommo must have not been feeling any lingering tightness or soreness in his shoulder in this spell and he was sending down stuff I not seen before or since. Wood looked like he was fearing for his life. I'd never seen him this openly scared. This was only one quick, not 4 , and yet this was something crazy going on out there and Thommo was making ball fly past his head. Fastest stuff I seen and I know this was not even Thommo at his quickest from 5 to 6 years earlier but it did give me an insight into thinking, s**t if he can do this today, wonder how quick he was back in those days? Obviously no radar gun there but given the Tait, Akhtar and Lee stuff I saw touching 160km/h at their quickest, I am tipping Thommo must have had at least 10km/h more than these guys at minimum in this match bowling to Wood. The thing for me on detecting relative speed with eyes is could watch someone like Brett Lee as seen all his career and there were days where even before seeing speed on screen could tell his was hitting a peak speed. The day we were playing semi-final of world cup v Sri Lanka I knew this was Lee at absolute top pace. I do not need the gun to tell me but when I did look at the speed it confirmed my own sense of speed I was watching was very good. So I do trust what I watch. The quickest spell I seen ever was the McDonald's cup match that I spoke of against Wood. Holding also had a very quick spell v Australia at Gabba in about 1979. Now for mine, Holding has Lee, Akhtar and Tait covered but from what I saw Thommo was even beyond that in McDonald's Cup game.

Now the thing for me is knowing that, in itself was clearly at time well past Thommo at his quickest I have no doubt he would have been even quicker by some margin in the the 1975 to 78 stuff I was not around to see. I cannot see how him not reaching 170km/h on video highlights of small samples that we cannot even be sure was his quickest. Colin Croft a fast bowler himself that seen all the Windies quicks, clearly states what he saw in West Indies of Thommo was clearly the quickest. To me it is overwhelming that if he was clearly quicker and on tv not hard to pick up when one bowler is 10km/h quicker than others, I reckon if Holding just over 160km/h add 10 at least and we hit that mark.

Then also add in he was measured at such speeds on days he openly said we not his quickest and what guys say that know how it was measured different to now, you can add the 10% factor that some of them talk about in the measurement and 10% of 160 km/h is 16km/h.
Add 16 km/h to the 160 km/h to give ball park figure of how it might have been measured with the way they do it now and that itself says 176km/h. That is already past 170km/h.

So going by looking with my own eye in real time of many spells over the years and listening players that faced the Holding, Roberts, Lilllee's etc. and thinking about how the difference in speed measurement taken. I find 170km/h very easy to believe as likely. For me it is just a matter of how much over.


I do not believe he was 20 km/h quicker at top pace than other quicks I have seen, but everything I seen and heard points towards 10km/h quicker comfortably. Given I know for sure Holding, Tait, Lee, Akhtar and probably another half dozen would got to or past 160km/h, anything but ridiculous.

However, what each person thinks is up to their own eyes of judging pace. I know from watching cricket with others that some people for whatever reason cannot pick up the relative pace of different bowlers with their own eyes. Some can be watching what I am seeing I sense 140km/h to 145 km/h and heard a few times people think it is 158 or something and they are shocked when I say nah, and sure enough the readings not even 150km/h. Other times I am saying myself this spell is over 150km/h and tracking 155km/h and they cannot tell, and more often than not I see reading on screen of the ball I such seen in that region of pace I was thinking it looked. So I trust my own judgement even before readings were common place, that my judgement was at least as good back then too.

There are other cricket watchers I been with watching on tv and they have a decent read on speed with their own eyes too. But I am aware there are plenty that do not and think their only way of knowing for sure is what the few readings been recorded over long history can tell them. For these types only the readings of last decade and a half with measurement devices of this time do they trust. Fair enough if that is all you want to go on to make your own opinions.
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Do you know how hard it is to hit 160km per hour? It's hard. I just don't buy this 170 business, I've only seen 4 blokes clocked at that level after watching 25 years of cricket. 160 fir Thomson I'd buy, 170? It's getting a bit rich.
 
footyfan78 said:
That's right. It was off the charts compared to other very quick bowlers. He was a real outlier in true sense of express pace bowlers.
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We will never know, he wasn't clocked at 170 and I've seen him bowl via footage, I've also seen Johnson, Starc, and Lee bowl some serious pace, and I just can't see Thompson bowling quicker.
 

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Great thread, loved the Duncan Spencer footage and article.

I think I first saw that footage of Holding attempting to decapitate Close on the excellent doco 'Fire In Babylon' - ridiculously quick.

Great little story from Viv Richards about Lawrence Rowe's trepidation when facing Thomson:


Thomson I find a little harder to gauge from footage; at his quickest though the ball seems pretty express through the air but then *really* picks up once it's bounced. I did see him live, but it was in the twilight of his career and he wasn't at his best ..
 
demondavey said:
Well as you say, you've seen it first hand and apparently your eye is exceptional. It's just really fast and I do find it hard to believe if it isn't on record.
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IIRC lee or Shoaib hit 163 or 165km

Thommo was quicker than either IMO.
 
I don't think it's impossible that Thomson would have hit 170. Or maybe at the very least, 167-168.

I can't buy 180 though. I think that's getting to the point where you're simply beyond what a normal human being is capable of, considering the biomechanical restrictions that having to keep your arm basically straight in delivery (a key point of difference compared to baseball pitchers, for example) imposes.

I accept that some can stretch the bounds of what is possible, but not by that much.

And make no mistake, while 20km/h on top of 160 might not sound completely outlandish on initial inspection, when you're already bowling that fast, it is a ginormous difference.

Even 175 seems a bit much for mine.
 
Doss said:
I don't think it's impossible that Thomson would have hit 170. Or maybe at the very least, 167-168.

I can't buy 180 though. I think that's getting to the point where you're simply beyond what a normal human being is capable of, considering the biomechanical restrictions that having to keep your arm basically straight in delivery (a key point of difference compared to baseball pitchers, for example) imposes.

I accept that some can stretch the bounds of what is possible, but not by that much.

And make no mistake, while 20km/h on top of 160 might not sound completely outlandish on initial inspection, when you're already bowling that fast, it is a ginormous difference.

Even 175 seems a bit much for mine.
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I will endevour to find where it was mentioned Thommo could have nudged 180. I know it wasn't just anecdotes, there was some kind of scientific theory behind it.

I'd believe it was possible for two reasons. One, he was measured at 160km after his shoulder injury. Even the eye test on old footage shows he was clearly quicker prior to the injury. Now I don't think at that pace you'd notice a discernable unless it was reasonably substantial. Two, no one else has come close to bowling 170, let alone 180. Why would Thommo be any different? There isn't a player before or since with the slingshot action he had, combined with a great deal of natural upper body strength. He had the perfect combination to be the ultimate speedster.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not going to say without any doubt that he's bowled those top speeds. I am not prepared to rule it out though.
 
180 seems a stretch but who knows.

Do love having a few beers and the old timers talk about the first time he came to play at Waverley Oval in Sydney Grade Cricket back in the late 60's. Word had gone around about this young superstar quick bowler from Bankstown but this was before the day's of YouTube and underage representative teams. Hell in those days it was an hour and half drive to Bankstown Oval from Bondi Beach so you couldn't even get someone gee'd up to go out there and scout him out. First ball is waiting to be bowled, Thommo has about a 40 metre run up, the keeper is about the same distance behind the stumps so there is about a rugby pitch between the two of them. Everyone thinks it's a piss take until the first ball whistles past the batsmen's head and is taken above the head by the keeper. The Story varies pretty wildly from there (as they tend to from those days) - sometimes the batsmen is Bruce Francis (who would go on to play for Oz), sometimes it's Lenny Richardson (who would go on to play for NSW). Sometimes Thommo is well contained, and sometimes he run through the team with 6 or 7 wickets, there's one guy who reckons he breaks someone's jaw but others swear that happened a few years later at Bankstown Oval. The one thing everyone agrees on is they've never seen a keeper stand so far back at the ground. Lenny Pascoe (than Durtanovich) joined him in the Bankstown first grade team in the next season or so.

One infamous story involving Thommo a couple of years later - He was dropped to third (maybe even fourth) grade for disciplinary reasons. Went out surfing and missed the start of a match or something like that. Not sure who the team on the receiving end was but he took 8 or 9 for 20. If that happened today you would be looking at lawsuits.

My old man got his first taste of grade cricket playing 3's or 4's one summer during the school holidays. One of the games was against Bankstown which had Thomson and Pascoe (both about 15, the old man about 17) opening the bowling. Only 15 but still pretty quick already. When he got home his old man asked him how it went. Dad's response: It's a little bit different to school cricket.
 
Richard Pryor said:
Read in a book by Rod Marsh that Pascoe was getting smashed by Kim Hughes in a domestic game and couldn't intimidate him with the bouncer so he deliberately gave him a full pelt beamer.
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I remember that. They were at each other verbally all day. Pascoe was a nut case.
 
Papa G said:
Honestly back in the day very few guys got hit in the head. There's a wide held theory that because they didn't wear helmets, they were way batter at getting out of the way. These days players hit front foot pull shots off fast bowlers because they have the protective gear.

Also, Old Mikey "I'm cool man" Holding had a serious vicious streak. He's basically trying to kill Close and would have kept trying if the Ump hadn't stepped in.
Click to expand...

I think it was as much to do with Tony Greig’s pre-series salvo as any desire to personally hurt the batsman.

Start off with a vicious assault that makes the rest of them s**t their pants.
 
Ah yes. The infamous "make them grovel" comment.

Not the smartest thing for a South African cum Englishman to say about West Indians.
 
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