Review R10: The Good, Bad and the Ugly vs. Collingwood

[jenny61_99]

Actually it’s 7 P’s

Proper prior preparation prevents piss poor performance

Too true! Forgot the proper!

 

[mick500]

I know they missed a few, but I suspect we had the easier shots.

Wasnt the reason we lost in any case.

Doesn't matter what the end margin was, we never looked likely and Collingwood were never threatened. It wouldn't have taken much to roll them but it was asking too much for us.

 

[Cromulant]

Doesn't matter what the end margin was, we never looked likely and Collingwood were never threatened. It wouldn't have taken much to roll them but it was asking too much for us.

I think they were threatened, we never went away

 

[SellarStardom]

Oppositions have worked out who some of our least damaging ball users are. Teams used to let Kelly alone in the back pocket knowing once he got it he'd nest it until eventually kicking it down the line.

I'd avoid Laird as an outlet too...Whilst he does look for infield options, he doesn't have enough of a pentrating kick to challenge defenses when he eventually kicks it long.

This is why we should have Cumming and Edwards at HB, both penetrating kicks.

Hinge up on ball and rotating on HB or wing, with Max freed up with Bond in the side.

2 ins would change the style of our play.

 

[Bob Neil]

Saints - 2.0
Essendon - 0.0
North - 0.0
Suns - 1.2
Geelong - 0.1
GWS - 1.0
Freo - 0.0
Carlton - 0.0
Port - 1.0
Collingwood - 0.1

So not a big first quarter scorer at all. Only once scored multiples, 3 games with 1 and 6 games (out of 10) without a goal on the first.

Not horrendous - I was at both the Suns and the Pies games so maybe that skewed my opinion.

 

[maxlilly]

Yep, at the game it was quite apparent that their shots were from much tighter angles and I think we rushed 6 behinds too. I'd say that was a good part of our game in that we were able to force them wide. The 3 ootf's and Rachele's miss exacerbated all of this. Biggest let-down for me was being unable to control the likes of Josh Daicos. Both ANB and Keays were terribly loose, and weren't even able to punish him the other way when we did manage to get the ball back.

That's 2 weeks in a row now, HBF have been BOG against us
If this keeps up, it wont be long and Murphy will be back in the team

 

[davos44]

How about Berry not getting a kick away when running towards goal?

Ahh yeah, that too. Collingwood are a good side.

 

[BRL121]

Ahh yeah, that too. Collingwood are a good side.

That is unrelated, nothing to do with Collingwood. The fact is that this is Berry's MO. He always thinks the oppo disappear when he is running with the ball.

 

[Cromulant]

That is unrelated, nothing to do with Collingwood. The fact is that this is Berry's MO. He always thinks the oppo disappear when he is running with the ball.

You dont see him get tackled that often.

 

[ftmch]

Nicks worries, panics and blames.

Do you reckon Nicks is getting over to Rankine and Curtin supporting them after those poor shots, or is he jumping into his press conference and blaming the players for a lack of composure?

The players have the occasion in their mind because they know it's a big moment and they know they'll be blamed personally if they fail. So they shrink and perform worse.

Extra pressure is piled on because Nicks goes around being nervous about these games.

“There are so many hard match-ups, there’s so many things they do well, which is why they are rated as one of the best teams in the competition at the moment,” Nicks said.

“That’s the challenge that faces us this week, and the group is itching to get over there and have a crack at Collingwood and get a win over a team that has had the wood on us for a while.”

Twice in the presser before the match he brings up how tough they are and how poor we are against them. Of course that rubs off on the players.

So when they're taking those shots they're under the pressure of the big game, knowing it's against a tough opponent we have a poor record against, and knowing they will be blamed if they fail. That's the Nicks way

This is the is the most 2025 thing ever.
The players missing absolutely gimme shots on goals is the fault of the coach for something he said in a press conference before the game!

You talk about blame culture, this is it right here. God forbid the players actually take some accountability.

Fmd

 

[feenix67]

This is the is the most 2025 thing ever.
The players missing absolutely gimme shots on goals is the fault of the coach for something he said in a press conference before the game!

You talk about blame culture, this is it right here. God forbid the players actually take some accountability.

Fmd

“Stereotype threat” is the idea that when a negative image becomes associated with a group, it takes on a life of its own, and the outcome and behaviours are more likely to be repeated. In a classic study on this subject from 1999, scientists asked men and women to take an arithmetic test. Some students were told that men and women performed equally well on the test; the others were told that men performed better. When the scientists told the women that women performed just as well as men, they subsequently performed as well as the men on the test. When women were told that women tended to perform worse, they performed worse than men on the test. Being made aware of the stereotype seemed to affect whether participants would adhere to it or not.

Stereotype threat can permeate sport, too. It can affect “any situation where you have the possibility or worry that people might judge you based on your actions or inclusion in a certain group – that could be race, that could be gender, that could be the team you play on,” said Sian Beilock, the cognitive scientist and author of Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To.

In sport and life, past failure can make future failure more likely. Since 1999, South African cricketers have lugged stereotype threat around with them, like an unwanted piece of oversized baggage, from one major tournament to the next. South Africa’s head coach between 2011 and 2013, Gary Kirsten, called the legacy of previous failures “a dark mist that hangs over South African cricket in knockout events”.

 

[davos44]

That is unrelated, nothing to do with Collingwood. The fact is that this is Berry's MO. He always thinks the oppo disappear when he is running with the ball.

Does he? Never noticed that, he tends to try to fend off/break a tackle in my book. It was a little bit to do with Collingwood defending hard and laying a good tackle or he would have had a kick at goal.

 

[BRL121]

Does he? Never noticed that, he tends to try to fend off/break a tackle in my book. It was a little bit to do with Collingwood defending hard and laying a good tackle or he would have had a kick at goal.

I didn't notice it in his first AFL games, where his value was in great tackling power in tight.
I watched a fair bit of him in the twos after he went out of favour. There, he continually tried to power through oppo tackles to get the ball out, no bad thing, but he got pulled down often, not unexpectedly. Then, on the occasions when he broke free, he had a tendency to think he had all day to look around and decide what to do, but he got caught from behind much more often than he should have.

He's not that fast as a runner, but his bigger problem is a lack of awareness/slowness of mind in these situations. He needs to play within his capabilities and get rid of the ball! On Saturday, I knew well in advance that he would be tackled unnecessarily rather than having a hack at goal. This was based on my experience of him in the SANFL.

 

[davos44]

I didn't notice it in his first AFL games, where his value was in great tackling power in tight.
I watched a fair bit of him in the twos after he went out of favour. There, he continually tried to power through oppo tackles to get the ball out, no bad thing, but he got pulled down often, not unexpectedly. Then, on the occasions when he broke free, he had a tendency to think he had all day to look around and decide what to do, but he got caught from behind much more often than he should have.

He's not that fast as a runner, but his bigger problem is a lack of awareness/slowness of mind in these situations. He needs to play within his capabilities and get rid of the ball! On Saturday, I knew well in advance that he would be tackled unnecessarily rather than having a hack at goal. This was based on my experience of him in the SANFL.

Ill keep an eye out for that, its an interesting point!

 

[ftmch]

“Stereotype threat” is the idea that when a negative image becomes associated with a group, it takes on a life of its own, and the outcome and behaviours are more likely to be repeated. In a classic study on this subject from 1999, scientists asked men and women to take an arithmetic test. Some students were told that men and women performed equally well on the test; the others were told that men performed better. When the scientists told the women that women performed just as well as men, they subsequently performed as well as the men on the test. When women were told that women tended to perform worse, they performed worse than men on the test. Being made aware of the stereotype seemed to affect whether participants would adhere to it or not.

Stereotype threat can permeate sport, too. It can affect “any situation where you have the possibility or worry that people might judge you based on your actions or inclusion in a certain group – that could be race, that could be gender, that could be the team you play on,” said Sian Beilock, the cognitive scientist and author of Choke: What the Secrets of the Brain Reveal About Getting It Right When You Have To.

In sport and life, past failure can make future failure more likely. Since 1999, South African cricketers have lugged stereotype threat around with them, like an unwanted piece of oversized baggage, from one major tournament to the next. South Africa’s head coach between 2011 and 2013, Gary Kirsten, called the legacy of previous failures “a dark mist that hangs over South African cricket in knockout events”.

Honestly, there are so many holes in this theory in the context of this conversation that it's hard to know where to start.

So essentially the reason players like Fog, Keays, Tex etc.. have continued to kick accurately this year is not to do with their skills or ability to master their craft, but rather their psychological capacity to overcome the crushing weight all of our players are carrying from 'worrying that people might judge them based on your actions or inclusion in a certain group'.

Truly, I've now heard it all.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

It’s been a feature of the Nicks era Crows that we collectively switch off when an opponent is lining up for goal. We are prone to: (a) short passes to free players in much better positions, (b) better kicks wheeling around the back and getting a handball receive, (c) giving up easy marks in what should be pack situations when the kicker goes to the top of the square instead of having a shot.

Two more of these (at least) on the weekend. Houston kicking the first goal wheeling around the back and getting a short kick from Membrey. Elliott taking a chest mark from a long kick to the hotspot.

Add that to Burton in the Showdown last week.

A constant issue.

 

[Elder van Berlo]

I find myself in half agreement with a lot of this thread. Selection is a mess. The queue at half back is a big list management issue and it’s compounded by shoehorning better/ more damaging players out of position so we can play zero impact players off half back.

This game (really the last month) also shows the importance of proactive management of Tex. Shouldn’t have gone to Gold Coast and/or Freo.

But I don’t agree we lost this game the same way we always lose to Collingwood. Generally they have got out to a match winning lead, taken the foot off the pedal, and we have free wheeled our way back in to give them a big scare.

This time we went toe to toe with them. Q1 was a good game of footy - we were a bit sloppy letting them kick 2 goals late. Q2 they got on top but were wasteful, we hung in by being efficient. Q3 we got on top but were wasteful, they got away from us by being efficient. Q4 we dominated but largely because they let us and could keep us at arm's length - but I suspect if they are honest with themselves they would have been uneasy about the end of that game the same way we were in the showdown.

Ultimately 4 mistakes each compounded by umpiring decisions that were somewhere between questionable and flagrantly wrong took the game away from us.

1. Curtin gets in Rankine’s way, Rankine has to change his mind mid kick and drops the ball. McCreery tackles him well after he has already dropped the ball - should have been a free kick for Rankine for holding on. Certainly was not holding the ball. He didn't have possession when tackled. Wrong decision.

2. Cameron marks (arguably a push out but meh), Fogarty does something stupid by grabbing him. I have not yet seen an angle of this that convinces me Fogarty knocked the ball out of his hands. Questionable decision.

3. Milera clearly gives a clean handball and is called for a throw by an umpire behind the disposal who could only have been guessing. Flagrantly awful decision. We let Elliott take an uncontested chest mark at the top of the square from the resulting kick.

4. Worrell has trouble gathering the ball in the defensive goal square and, the moment he picks it up, is tackled and he tries to sway out of the way of it. He holds his head but I didn't see any high contact. Nor did I see any prior opportunity. Questionable decision.

We largely got the rub of the green with umpires for most of the game - but they had a massive impact on the crucial 15 minutes where we lost the game. But also, it's not like we were blameless for any of those four goals.

To the eye, we look better than in previous years. To the eye, that was a game where we took it up to Collingwood rather than caught them by surprise. But at some point we just have to start winning these games.

 

[GreyCrow]

Two more of these (at least) on the weekend. Houston kicking the first goal wheeling around the back and getting a short kick from Membrey. Elliott taking a chest mark from a long kick to the hotspot.

Add that to Burton in the Showdown last week.

A constant issue.

Hmm hadnt noticed

I have to think on how this evolves . My initial thought is its a general discussion around mental resting ie '' the best time to relax the brain is when the oppo are kicking at goal '' - fine in isolation but as above has consequences

But once it happens a few times someone should jump on it

I wonder how much on-field leadership we actually have

 

[1990crow]

Honestly, there are so many holes in this theory in the context of this conversation that it's hard to know where to start.

So essentially the reason players like Fog, Keays, Tex etc.. have continued to kick accurately this year is not to do with their skills or ability to master their craft, but rather their psychological capacity to overcome the crushing weight all of our players are carrying from 'worrying that people might judge them based on your actions or inclusion in a certain group'.

Truly, I've now heard it all.

If you don't believe it makes a difference you've got your head in the sand.

Conversely, good teams like Geelong, Hawks and Sydney use their past successes to drive their current successs.
Our failures compound - I fundamentally believe we lost on the weekend with some influence of our past.

We don't believe completely.

 

[feenix67]

Honestly, there are so many holes in this theory in the context of this conversation that it's hard to know where to start.

So essentially the reason players like Fog, Keays, Tex etc.. have continued to kick accurately this year is not to do with their skills or ability to master their craft, but rather their psychological capacity to overcome the crushing weight all of our players are carrying from 'worrying that people might judge them based on your actions or inclusion in a certain group'.

Truly, I've now heard it all.

Interesting, considering that was a direct copy/paste from a sports psychologist.

I mean, if you cant see the broader context, let me spell it out for you.

If you think succeeding in big moments is purely down to skill, you have no idea about sports psychology. Pro Golfers hit a gazillion balls in practice in their careers yet many choke under pressure - thats not a lack of skill, thats mindset. Anecdotally, I myself (a rank B grader) have choked up a 5up at the turn lead in a golf thing all because I started worrying about the "what ifs". As soon as you start worrying about mechanics instead of focussing on a successful outcome, unconscious actions become conscious. If you've ever heard of "getting in the way of yourself" or have any understanding of flow state, you'll understand what I mean.

In team sport, club culture and coaching have a lot to do with setting a players ability to execute in big moments. The difference between seeing a shot to win the match as an opportunity to succeed v an opportunity to fail. You notice it with the way Collingwood and Geelong go about their work. For many years Sydney too. Port Adelaide Magpies in the SANFL heyday.

Imagine hearing Nicks say in his pre match address "now we're up against a good side this week, so we can't afford to make any mistakes" and then lining up for a clutch shot on goal in the heat of battle. And if you think Matty wouldn't say that, he said exactly that in his post match presser. Imagine the alternative - "we have a great opportunity this week and we wont leave anything on the table to achieve that. We're ready to take the next step and look forward to the opportunity". And then getting a set shot and viewing it as an opportunity to succeed instead of fail.

Do yourself a favour and do some reading on the subject.

 

[beartoo]

Too true! Forgot the proper!

Need to fit pineapple in there somewhere.

 

[MRB37]

One underrated thing that I think was a big issue for us too was how often we had to drag Thilthorpe out of the F50 line. We just went to bombing it fairly often, which meant we were pulling Thilthorpe trying to get the contested mark. Look at his heat map from the game, it's mostly all red on down the line kicks, either in the back half (long to the right, our favourite) or pulling him up to half forward.



Just not going to get much goal scoring from him when that's where he's getting the ball.

 

[feenix67]

One underrated thing that I think was a big issue for us too was how often we had to drag Thilthorpe out of the F50 line. We just went to bombing it fairly often, which meant we were pulling Thilthorpe trying to get the contested mark. Look at his heat map from the game, it's mostly all red on down the line kicks, either in the back half (long to the right, our favourite) or pulling him up to half forward.

View attachment 2319928

Just not going to get much goal scoring from him when that's where he's getting the ball.

It's a really good observation, especially when you consider that the Pies had Cameron and Cox as targets during their "down the line" chains. More than once we had O'Brien and RT competing against each other too, sometimes even Dawson.

If you couple this with Ranks map (centre and high half forward mostly) and Rash's map (mostly wing and high half forward) you can see that all our scoring power was drawn away from the goal face because our up and down the line crap resulted in shallow entries.

Good spot mate

 

[Brasher]

One underrated thing that I think was a big issue for us too was how often we had to drag Thilthorpe out of the F50 line. We just went to bombing it fairly often, which meant we were pulling Thilthorpe trying to get the contested mark. Look at his heat map from the game, it's mostly all red on down the line kicks, either in the back half (long to the right, our favourite) or pulling him up to half forward.

View attachment 2319928

Just not going to get much goal scoring from him when that's where he's getting the ball.

Imagine if he dragged Frampton into the middle, you'd back Thilthorpe 9 times out of 10 in the air or on the ground.

It's the same as a golfer struggling to putt. Their mindset is hoping to make a putt not expecting to make one.

We don't take the game on when the opposition steps up.

 

[George CantStandYa]

This is the is the most 2025 thing ever.
The players missing absolutely gimme shots on goals is the fault of the coach for something he said in a press conference before the game!

You talk about blame culture, this is it right here. God forbid the players actually take some accountability.

Fmd

So you’d expect he’d drop players who continually underperform right?

Would you have gone in with Tex?