Preview R6: Carlton v Bulldogs Sun 12th July 6.45PM @ Metricon - Team - Post #937

[Coops93]

I think Plow's errors are magnified too muuch and that makes him a whipping boy. He is worthy of being in our best 22-25 every week. He is serviceable (at worst) and can do a great defensive job at best
Can we find him a secondary position if he is getting beaten? (and I don't mean playing ressies)

I think it's just how glaring those couple of mistakes are. I must admit at least once a game I go "FFS PLOWMAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING" which I don't really do with others. 90% of his game is solid, but 1 or 2 times a game he has a glaringly bad moment.

Also given the close games we've been having lately I've noticed those brain explosions seems to happen in the tight moments at important times. I don't think he handles high pressure situations well, which isn't ideal for a defender. That said, he is good for most of the game.

It's what makes him so hard to evaluate, in total he had a good game outside of 1 or 2 moments, but those 1 or 2 moments are so bad it makes you think he needs to be dropped.

 

[HARKER]

I think some of the ideas i've seen about replacing him with JSOS/Gov down back though are pretty crazy...neither have played much of their careers as defenders...there's really no reason to think they'd be any good down there and certainly not as good as Plowman.

Plowman's main asset seems to be being able to play small and tall...he always takes the medium sized guys and takes Dangerfield/Martin types when they rest forward. JSOS & Gov wouldn't be able to do this. Gov in particular was actually pretty bad as a defender at Adelaide and he was good up front for half the Melbourne game and in the Geelong & Essendon games...one of his best assets is his goal kicking. We're also starting to use him to get up the ground to provide a link from defensive 50 to forward 50. No way is he to play anywhere but the forward line.

I don't think it's crazy but I also don't think that JSilvagni would make for the role that's often given to Plowman.
The CFC like Marchbank and I wouldn't be surprised in time the balance of our starting backline changes to something like -

Docherty Jones Marchbank
Williamson Weitering xxxxxx - Someone with speed, good hands and a good kick.

I feel that makes for a better balanced group than for what we're currently employing.

 

[Coops93]

I wonder how inconsequential Woosha thought he was a fortnight ago when playing on McDonald-Tipungwuti.

My guess is nowhere near as much as supporters who think he 'should' be doing better.

What else has he done?

 

[Blue__Balls]

I also get annoyed at some of Plow's glaring errors but can acknowledge he does a lot of good work...and obviously the coaches really rate him given his consistently high B&F finishes.

I think some of the ideas i've seen about replacing him with JSOS/Gov down back though are pretty crazy...neither have played much of their careers as defenders...there's really no reason to think they'd be any good down there and certainly not as good as Plowman.

Plowman's main asset seems to be being able to play small and tall...he always takes the medium sized guys and takes Dangerfield/Martin types when they rest forward. JSOS & Gov wouldn't be able to do this. Gov in particular was actually pretty bad as a defender at Adelaide and he was good up front for half the Melbourne game and in the Geelong & Essendon games...one of his best assets is his goal kicking. We're also starting to use him to get up the ground to provide a link from defensive 50 to forward 50. No way is he to play anywhere but the forward line.

Hate the idea of Gov as a defender.

JSOS on the other hand, seems perfect. His repeat efforts are top notch, his game sense is very good, his disposal is typically pretty good, and the area of his game that usually lets him down (contested marks above his head) is less a problem down back where he'd be expected to spoil more than mark.

If Jack can go with Fyfe in the middle, he can take a third tall/resting mid as a defender.

 

[Jeremias]

What else has he done?

I'd say he has been inconsistent but he's not having anywhere near as poor a season as you and a few others have suggested.

Very good against Richmond in the opening game of the season.
Poor early against Melbourne but I thought he improved significantly as the game went on.
Quiet against the Cats though I can't recall who his direct opponent was on the night nor what they did.
Very good against Essendon.
Poor against St Kilda, but the whole team was, and he was far from our worst.

Judge him on what he is doing, not on what you think he should be doing. Because ultimately you have no idea what he should be doing and whether he is fulfilling that role.

 

[Coops93]

I'd say he has been inconsistent but he's not having anywhere near as poor a season as you and a few others have suggested.

Could you point to where I said he has been poor? I don't believe I have suggested that. As far as I'm aware I've just said he's not playing as well as perhaps he should be at this point in his career.

Very good against Richmond in the opening game of the season.
Poor early against Melbourne but I thought he improved significantly as the game went on.
Quiet against the Cats though I can't recall who his direct opponent was on the night nor what they did.
Very good against Essendon.
Poor against St Kilda, but the whole team was, and he was far from our worst.

Judge him on what he is doing, not on what you think he should be doing. Because ultimately you have no idea what he should be doing and whether he is fulfilling that role.

I think you're being fairly generous with him. I think his man marking is good, hence his game against Anthony, but when it comes to those contested moments he leaves a lot to be desired which isn't a good trait in a defender. He gets pushed off the ball or out of the way far to easily.

His so called excellent skill is a myth as far as I'm concerned. Lots of 20-30m kicks. Great, especially out of defense when you need an outlet, but that's not "elite" skill that changes the game.

He's not at the level he should be by now. He's not bad, but he's not really good either. He is treading water and we need more from him. He's not the only one, he's one of a few in that category.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I think it's just how glaring those couple of mistakes are. I must admit at least once a game I go "FFS PLOWMAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING" which I don't really do with others.

Surely you said it twice about Jones during the Saints game? I know I did. I was incredulous it would do the same thing a second time.

Mostly, Plowman's 'errors' are about trying to cut off a pass and over committing, allowing a player to run inside 50, or getting outbodied in a one on one. Not too much in the way of breaking fundamental football rules.

 

[Bluesome]

Spot on - he plays in a position on field where his errors can lead to instant opposition goals - magnifies his clangers more than others and no-one in our defense is immune from these errors. Even Doc who we rave about has a clanger leading to opposition shot on goal almost every other game.

I think Plow could push up onto a wing if we needed to move him around.

I don't think Plow gets the credit he deserves - not often in our best but very rarely in our worst...

Not averse to trying him on a wing as I reckon he looks his best when setting up in the 'wall' outside our 50 to keep the ball in our forward half...often finds a central target to allow us to reload, and can do that from a wing position...

Having said that, I think we would struggle to replicate what he brings down back with any other player on our list right now...wouldn't trust Gov down back and JSOS for mine is best as a forward pitch hitting in the mid...

 

[Coops93]

Surely you said it twice about Jones during the Saints game? I know I did. I was incredulous it would do the same thing a second time.

Mostly, Plowman's 'errors' are about trying to cut off a pass and over committing, allowing a player to run inside 50, or getting outbodied in a one on one. Not too much in the way of breaking fundamental football rules.

Yes and no, I've posted in the top 5 kicking thread responding to people putting Jones in the top 5 saying the problem with Jones isn't his kicking, which is good, but rather that thing between the ears and choosing whom he should kick to. Whenever he gets it I'm half expecting it to happen so when it does I'm not really shocked.

Plowmans mistakes that I'm referring to are inexplicable things that make no sense. A good example off the top of my head is vs Geelong late in the game running onto the loose ball ahead of the Geelong ruckman for some unknown reason he dives and tries to knock the ball for a behind or out of bounds... from about 12m away... so even it worked it's deliberate one way or the other, but instead he doesn't make contact and Geelong get it uncontested despite Plowman initially being in position 1A. Nothing about what he did made any sense whatsoever. He does something random like that way too often in tight moments and that's what I refer to.

I'm not too hard on him for losing contests etc because it's football, that happens. My grievances are when he does things like I described. Outside of those moments I like him, but those moments are why people always call for him to be dropped - at least that's my take on why they want him to be dropped. I'm not in that camp but so I'm just guessing.

 

[ajb72]

Plow and SPS are so far down the list of issues that they aren't even worth mentioning. Heck if I did votes in the St Kilda game, Plowman wouldve gotten in the votes. SPS is doing a role and doing it fine.

 

[Coops93]

Plow and SPS are so far down the list of issues that they aren't even worth mentioning. Heck if I did votes in the St Kilda game, Plowman wouldve gotten in the votes. SPS is doing a role and doing it fine.

I don't think Plowman is an issue but SPS is a little one. He wasn't picked at no.6 to be a role player. It's not SPS specifically but the totality of the kids not stepping up, of which he's one.

 

[Chookaradley]

Gov must be on his last chance. An inform and fit Kennedy can play forward and also give us another midfield rotation, allowing Cripps to play more forward.

I think our defence is pretty settled and not likely to change anytime soon, can't see Gov going back there.

 

[Curnivore]

Gov must be on his last chance. An inform and fit Kennedy can play forward and also give us another midfield rotation, allowing Cripps to play more forward.

I think our defence is pretty settled and not likely to change anytime soon, can't see Gov going back there.

Setterfield really coming on I think. I really like Kennedy but Cripps, Setterfield, Ed Curnow and Bam Bam I worry is a bit too much muscle not enough speed?

 

[SurreyBlue]

Gov must be on his last chance. An inform and fit Kennedy can play forward and also give us another midfield rotation, allowing Cripps to play more forward.

I think our defence is pretty settled and not likely to change anytime soon, can't see Gov going back there.

JSoS to replace McGovern
Kennedy to come in and replace Ed. Along with Crippa & Setterfield as the inside mids, these 3 can cause havok on the opposition if we use them wisely. Just get the ball out to the outriders like Murphy, Walsh, Fisher, Cuningham, Martin, SpS, Dow, O'Brien, etc. and let them break the lines.
BTW - not saying the outsiders or the insiders can't do both set of work but....

 

[Accidental genius]

I think it's just how glaring those couple of mistakes are. I must admit at least once a game I go "FFS PLOWMAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING" which I don't really do with others. 90% of his game is solid, but 1 or 2 times a game he has a glaringly bad moment.

Also given the close games we've been having lately I've noticed those brain explosions seems to happen in the tight moments at important times. I don't think he handles high pressure situations well, which isn't ideal for a defender. That said, he is good for most of the game.

It's what makes him so hard to evaluate, in total he had a good game outside of 1 or 2 moments, but those 1 or 2 moments are so bad it makes you think he needs to be dropped.

I think you hit the nail on the head. He does not handle pressure well but as a defender it’s an essential attribute.

 

[Arr0w]

I don't think it's about being bad, it's that he should be better than he is, which I think is a pretty fair point. He's pretty inconsequential to games outcomes right now.

I suspect that be due to playing in a role that is not natural to him

 

[Coops93]

I suspect that be due to playing in a role that is not natural to him

I agree it's not the right role for him, based on last year though his impact is similar.

I'd still like to see him in a spot better suited to him though so we can get a better idea of how he's actually going. Halfback isn't his spot.

 

[Arr0w]

Yeap, same whipping boys and now, we are looking to increase that list

 

[Blue Pulse]

I want to jump on the Plow whipping boy band wagon. For a guy who takes on the Dustin Martins and Dangerfields when resting forward, I am over the fact that he never gets paid a free kick when he gets pushed in the back or scragged in a marking contest or the umpires pay a mark after the siren even when he is already in the shower. I'm over him.
FFS Plow get a free kick.

 

[Bobmonkey]

Plow and SPS are so far down the list of issues that they aren't even worth mentioning. Heck if I did votes in the St Kilda game, Plowman wouldve gotten in the votes. SPS is doing a role and doing it fine.

It's so easy for people to s**t on backmen, because when they make mistakes the consequences can be immediate / apparent.

You rarely hear people focus on our forward line not putting enough pressure leading to the opposition easily getting rebound 50's and great drive from their half backers.

You rarely hear people focus on our midfield not two way running leading to our defenders being out-manned and as a result under pressure leading to a blind kick or handball to the wrong position.

Being a backman in the AFL can be the most thankless position, where people will use you as a whipping boy and focus on your mistakes instead of the good you do, while also ignoring the situations up field the lead to the ball being in defence in the first place.

A backman doesn't get the glory of scoring, they for the most part don't rack up the possession count of a midfielder, and due to the fact that they play a negating role they don't have the luxury of focusing on their own game, and because of that people blame them whenever anything goes wrong. Because that's the basic bitch answer to what went wrong in a game.

There's a reason the likes of Plowman finish high in a B+F, people just don't focus on them.

 

[Coops93]

I want to jump on the Plow whipping boy band wagon. For a guy who takes on the Dustin Martins and Dangerfields when resting forward, I am over the fact that he never gets paid a free kick when he gets pushed in the back or scragged in a marking contest or the umpires pay a mark after the siren even when he is already in the shower. I'm over him.
FFS Plow get a free kick.

That's a good observation, he does always seem to get those frees against him when both guys are holding. Somehow the umpires are always in a position where they only see his hold and not that they're also holding him. Very frustrating

 

[SOSforPM]

View attachment 908166

One more good game here or there and we may have had Plowman as our 2019 B&F winner.

That shouldn't amount to too much, but clearly the club sees something in him, beyond most here do.
I don't even think Plowman is the problem, but I also think it's not too bad of an idea you have there.

Somes up where we were as a club last year. I know Plowman has some staunch defenders on here but as bad as it sounds, the day that plowman is squeezed out the side is the day we turn this ship around...IMO

 

[Coops93]

You rarely hear people focus on our midfield not two way running leading to our defenders being out-manned and as a result under pressure leading to a blind kick or handball to the wrong position.

I think in general that's right, but I feel like it does get brought up a fair bit by us on here. For example people talk often about Dow and Kennedy having poor defensive efforts for example.

The rest of the comment is fair. I played CHB growing up and thought I was quite good (at least, that's why Mum said). I moved clubs when I was 16 and got put forward and there's way more plaudits for those blokes. It's the same in every sport in the world, though. People pay to watch goals/tries/touchdowns, not defenders, so it makes sense.

 

[Macca43]

Must win game so we rest Betts, I don't think so. Betts will get a rest if we end up either 7-2 or 2-7 not when we could finish the weekend 3-3.

Fisher to take Newnes spot on the wing, JSOS to take Philp's role up forward - both an upgrade.

 

[F_therest]

Gov must be on his last chance. An inform and fit Kennedy can play forward and also give us another midfield rotation, allowing Cripps to play more forward.

I think our defence is pretty settled and not likely to change anytime soon, can't see Gov going back there.

Um what? He was really good in the Geelong & Essendon games and the last half of the Melbourne game.

Down last week but so was pretty much the whole team with fellow forwards Casboult & McKay being no better.