Preview R6: Carlton v Bulldogs Sun 12th July 6.45PM @ Metricon - Team - Post #937

[james Dean]

Newnes needs to go, he offered little the first few games, tonight he was a liability. Fisher can come in for him

If JSOS is fit then he can take the spot of McGovern who is just coasting and needs a kick in the arse.

I wouldn't drop Philp who kept trying the whole game.

A huge lift is needed from SPS, Walsh, McKay and Murphy

 

[Gethelred]

In: Fisher, O'Brien, Stocker

Out: Murphy, Simpson, Newnes

We need to replace Murphy's possessions; Fish accomplishes that. Stocker takes SPS's place on the HBF, and SPS goes to midfield, Fish and O'Brien to the wings, Walsh to the centre. We need the next gen to come in and to seize the initiative; we need to move past needing leaders over Cripps and Doc.

Sydney have played some awful footy this year. We need to clamp down on Papley; if we manage to keep him down, they'll struggle to score. Course, given how things went tonight, Heeney will have 35+ and kick six himself after being terrible all season.

Bit down tonight. Probably have more to say over the next week.

 

[Jimmae]

Newnes needs to go, he offered little the first few games, tonight he was a liability. Fisher can come in for him

If JSOS is fit then he can take the spot of McGovern who is just coasting and needs a kick in the arse.

I wouldn't drop Philp who kept trying the whole game.

A huge lift is needed from SPS, Walsh, McKay and Murphy

In: Fisher, O'Brien, Stocker

Out: Murphy, Simpson, Newnes

We need to replace Murphy's possessions; Fish accomplishes that. Stocker takes SPS's place on the HBF, and SPS goes to midfield, Fish and O'Brien to the wings, Walsh to the centre. We need the next gen to come in and to seize the initiative; we need to move past needing leaders over Cripps and Doc.

Sydney have played some awful footy this year. We need to clamp down on Papley; if we manage to keep him down, they'll struggle to score. Course, given how things went tonight, Heeney will have 35+ and kick six himself after being terrible all season.

Bit down tonight. Probably have more to say over the next week.

You guys are looking at this a bit backwards.

We were down on uncontested possession on the night, so these guys weren't getting much football. You then need to look at who was covering ground out there in midfield to get to position and assist or pressure, and what they did when they were in a position to do something. So let's try grading that a little bit (A to F):

Player	Making position	Making play
Gibbons	B	E
Newnes	C	E
Murphy	B	B
Simpson	B	B
Walsh	B	B
Setterfield	C	A
Philp	D	C
Cuningham	C	A
Cripps	C	A
Docherty	B	A
Williamson	C	A
E.Curnow	A	C
Martin	B	A

Away from that, Murphy didn't have a single contested possession on the night, but I'm not sure he was even used at the centre bounce, at all, nor that regularly at the stoppage. I don't understand what the coaches were doing with him tonight, but from my perspective they basically took him out of the game.

So from where I sit, most players were fantastic, and should hold their heads high. One is young and green, and needs more time to develop if he's going to come into a team that doesn't quite have their roles locked down. Then there's two players who just kept ruining opportunities for the team, and left everyone running ragged to clean up the mistake.

Between the three of them, and McGovern, Jones, Simpson and Cripps looking a bit laboured, they sapped quite a bit from the rest of the side, and everything just snowballed in that first quarter, and everything after that was anchored by their impact on our ability to respond.

 

[jooce8891]

philp, newnes out
fish, lob in
need a massive response, blues by 30+

 

[TerryWallet]

You guys are looking at this a bit backwards.

We were down on uncontested possession on the night, so these guys weren't getting much football. You then need to look at who was covering ground out there in midfield to get to position and assist or pressure, and what they did when they were in a position to do something. So let's try grading that a little bit (A to F):

Player	Making position	Making play
Gibbons	B	E
Newnes	C	E
Murphy	B	B
Simpson	B	B
Walsh	B	B
Setterfield	C	A
Philp	D	C
Cuningham	C	A
Cripps	C	A
Docherty	B	A
Williamson	C	A
E.Curnow	A	C
Martin	B	A

Away from that, Murphy didn't have a single contested possession on the night, but I'm not sure he was even used at the centre bounce, at all, nor that regularly at the stoppage. I don't understand what the coaches were doing with him tonight, but from my perspective they basically took him out of the game.

So from where I sit, most players were fantastic, and should hold their heads high. One is young and green, and needs more time to develop if he's going to come into a team that doesn't quite have their roles locked down. Then there's two players who just kept ruining opportunities for the team, and left everyone running ragged to clean up the mistake.

Between the three of them, and McGovern, Jones, Simpson and Cripps looking a bit laboured, they sapped quite a bit from the rest of the side, and everything just snowballed in that first quarter, and everything after that was anchored by their impact on our ability to respond.

On the bolded bit Jimmae, i think exactly what the coaches did with Murphy was "hide him" because they knew it would be a strong contest. At best they would have been hoping for him to cheat/use his experience to get some kicks to advantage if we were still in the game later on.

He is dusted. If we keep playing him he will cheat/use his experience here and there til the end of the year. If we say enough is enough and that we have enough ready talent now and replace him, we can start on our journey to respect by the rest of the AFL teams, players, coaches and analysts.

 

[Arr0w]

SPS had one bad quarter in round 2, and had to contend with midfield support that spent the first half doing a great impersonation of tissue paper.

Is he an ideal small defender? No. Is he holding his own, and offers intelligent use of possession? Yes.

I don't think he'll be put to better use in the midfield, because he won't tear up a wing, and he won't rip it out of a stoppage. His weaknesses remain the same from the day he was drafted, in that his speed/endurance mix doesn't feel very impactful through the middle of the ground. Florent or Simpkin might have been the pick in hindsight, but I have faith the conditioning staff can do work on him if the coaches engage their brains and seek to project who he can be as a footballer.


Take a closer at Kennedy's highlights from those matches, and while he looks improved, he still looks like he's running on slower turf than most players around him. Happy to see progress from him, but he's not ready yet, certainly not as a midfielder.


"Not good enough right now, and that's ok."


Scott Clayton called, he wanted to know how you stole all of his football knowledge...

By all means, let's get some speed into the stoppages if they can actually contest, but they were being beaten down by a strength/speed combination in there, with the Saints rotating Ross, Steele and Marsh.

Did you know that tonight we had both an age and experience advantage? Over a year older and some 25 games more experienced on average, but those numbers were padded a bit by Newnes and Betts. Then there's the issue of the execution of a tactical system where Marc Murphy doesn't get to kick the ball inside 50 once, and Gibbons is allowed to do it 3 times.

The real difference between the teams was us placing people with bog average decision making and physical attributes - at least in terms of the competition - in a position where they have to make a critical play for their team. It happened for years under other coaches, and we lamented the list, and now the maturing talent is sitting in the reserves while Plodder 1 and Plodder 2 'play a role'.

If you think their physical maturity outweighs their peanut brain decisions and execution, you're completely missing the point of what maturation is supposed to be for. They're almost certainly not taking feedback properly, so they must be dropped, they must be given further and better feedback on what needs to improve, and they must work on that.

If I'd known what the club had planned for Dow, O'Brien, Stocker and Walsh, I wouldn't have just been writing some paragraphs in here on their merits and alternatives, I probably would have been yelling and gesturing directly at club staff for even thinking of drafting them only to be left to languish in the reserves or in defensive roles after 2 or more pre-seasons, while VFL stars show everyone why they're VFL stars. It's a slap in the face to the 19-23 bracket that have come into the club, clearly of excellent character, and are being weighed down by the coaches' perceived weaknesses from our football departments' analysis.

Data-driven recruitment is wonderful, in that it can highlight perceived biases and reveal new opportunities, along with the ability to more objectively analyse what you have and what you need, but Mr '50/50 dispute winner' and Mr 'Metres Gained' are not working, because they mostly nail metrics, not spoils, tackles or critical passes.

I'm done with watching the crap those two are dishing up because we're 'delighted with their pressure and example'.

You guys are looking at this a bit backwards.

We were down on uncontested possession on the night, so these guys weren't getting much football. You then need to look at who was covering ground out there in midfield to get to position and assist or pressure, and what they did when they were in a position to do something. So let's try grading that a little bit (A to F):

Player	Making position	Making play
Gibbons	B	E
Newnes	C	E
Murphy	B	B
Simpson	B	B
Walsh	B	B
Setterfield	C	A
Philp	D	C
Cuningham	C	A
Cripps	C	A
Docherty	B	A
Williamson	C	A
E.Curnow	A	C
Martin	B	A

Away from that, Murphy didn't have a single contested possession on the night, but I'm not sure he was even used at the centre bounce, at all, nor that regularly at the stoppage. I don't understand what the coaches were doing with him tonight, but from my perspective they basically took him out of the game.

So from where I sit, most players were fantastic, and should hold their heads high. One is young and green, and needs more time to develop if he's going to come into a team that doesn't quite have their roles locked down. Then there's two players who just kept ruining opportunities for the team, and left everyone running ragged to clean up the mistake.

Between the three of them, and McGovern, Jones, Simpson and Cripps looking a bit laboured, they sapped quite a bit from the rest of the side, and everything just snowballed in that first quarter, and everything after that was anchored by their impact on our ability to respond.

Your biase has you blinded

If you think 2 players were the catalyst for how we played tonight you are delusional

Direct your angst towards the coaches box for that 1st half gameplan/tactics, trying to go head to head, rather than the balance of tempo footy when needed

We got hurt on the spread with a lack of numbers to the outside, as players were drawn in too far

Bringing extra numbers to the fall of the ball is what helped us over the last 2 weeks, yet this week, we didn't impact the contest, allowing easy passage for the opposition to the outside once they released

 

[Accidental genius]

philp got his hands on the ball a bit more. i think he should stay in the side. its a real good learning curve for him. give him one more week. whether he is in or out of the team will not affect whether we win.

 

[smashbox gill]

Harry needs to pull his finger out and want it more. Has all the talent in the world but doesn’t look hungry for it at this time

 

[LanceRomance]

Lots of idealistic proposed outs lol

Guys like Murph and McKay aren't getting dropped unless they are injured.

 

[bigm386]

SPS had one bad quarter in round 2, and had to contend with midfield support that spent the first half doing a great impersonation of tissue paper.

Is he an ideal small defender? No. Is he holding his own, and offers intelligent use of possession? Yes.

I just don't think he is going to make it as a running HB. It isn't just one quarter, he isn't a defender. His disposal off half back has been average and he doesn't break lines or take the game on.

I am struggling to see why he seems to be bullet proof but Stocker, LoB and even Polson could fill that role but haven't been given a go.

SPS has been out of form since the return in my opinion.

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Looks like this game will be in Sydney if we are shunted up there to join a hub next week. No biggy we won at SCG last year

 

[Ald Gardiner]

Harry needs to pull his finger out and want it more. Has all the talent in the world but doesn’t look hungry for it at this time

He is in real trouble when Charlie is back next year

 

[El Topo]

Do we have a ressies game this week? Kennedy and LOB have to be close after some of last night's performances.

 

[The Blue Weirdo]

If Fish comes in, some skinny-body has to be dropped. And does anyone else release a nervous groan when the ball's in Ed or Simmo's hands, when looking for a target by foot?

 

[ETET]

We know Hewett will go to Cripps as usual and he stops him. We have 10 days to come up with a Plan B.

If the presser involves Cripps statements around “he needs to work his way through it”. “He was well held” then that will be on the coaches.

Don’t get beaten by what you know.

 

[JustaBattler]

Teaguey was outcoached last night simple as that.

Where it was most obvious was in defence - St Kilda kept our best kicks out of the game - King was just given a mission to run Weitering away, Butler was just told to run Plowman and Williamson up and down the sidelines and Docherty lost his one on ones against their Captain - which was the most surprising aspect of it all. SPS/Simpson and Jones are the blokes you want with ball in hand if you are an opposition coach and St Kilda ensured that their forward defensive structure and spread achieved just that.

The reason this worked was because Pittonet was soundly beaten and our on ball brigade including Cripps were also beaten the only time Carlton looked to be able to match St Kilda was when Levi rucked and Setterfield/Cuningham and martin went on ball - that seemed to put St Kilda off their pre-prepared nullify Cripps routine.

This week also saw the glaring weakness of Carlton's lack of quality outside run on display - All of Gibson/Newnes and Murphy were to be kind - ineffective but what does anyone really expect from these blokes anyway? What Murphy gives in field kicking he takes away in poor defence, what Gibson gives in endeavour he loses in poor execution and slow decision making, what Newnes provides in experience he gives away in lack of penetration ....this will be repeated week in week out every week.

Cripps instincts kicked when he was relieved of on ball duties- and that was telling to me - he manufactured a way to get the ball into Martin's hands at every opportunity - Martin is who Cripps trusts to play well - and for good reason.

The forward line was starved by poor entries and not enough of them. Our three talls were made to look hopeless - and Harry was.


Sydney is a different proposition - they won't have the firepower to execute what Rattens side did, the umps won't be as one-sided and Fisher will add spark and smarts to the midfield rotations.

nothing else will change until Teagues changes more than one or two players out.

 

[james Dean]

We know Hewett will go to Cripps as usual and he stops him. We have 10 days to come up with a Plan B.

If the presser involves Cripps statements around “he needs to work his way through it”. “He was well held” then that will be on the coaches.

Don’t get beaten by what you know.

He needs to start taking his tagger to the goal square. No midfielder can defend him as a forward, he worked his way into the game when he became a half forward last night

 

[LanceRomance]

Teaguey was outcoached last night simple as that.

Where it was most obvious was in defence - St Kilda kept our best kicks out of the game - King was just given a mission to run Weitering away, Butler was just told to run Plowman and Williamson up and down the sidelines and Docherty lost his one on ones against their Captain - which was the most surprising aspect of it all. SPS/Simpson and Jones are the blokes you want with ball in hand if you are an opposition coach and St Kilda ensured that their forward defensive structure and spread achieved just that.

The reason this worked was because Pittonet was soundly beaten and our on ball brigade including Cripps were also beaten the only time Carlton looked to be able to match St Kilda was when Levi rucked and Setterfield/Cuningham and martin went on ball - that seemed to put St Kilda off their pre-prepared nullify Cripps routine.

This week also saw the glaring weakness of Carlton's lack of quality outside run on display - All of Gibson/Newnes and Murphy were to be kind - ineffective but what does anyone really expect from these blokes anyway? What Murphy gives in field kicking he takes away in poor defence, what Gibson gives in endeavour he loses in poor execution and slow decision making, what Newnes provides in experience he gives away in lack of penetration ....this will be repeated week in week out every week.

Cripps instincts kicked when he was relieved of on ball duties- and that was telling to me - he manufactured a way to get the ball into Martin's hands at every opportunity - Martin is who Cripps trusts to play well - and for good reason.

The forward line was starved by poor entries and not enough of them. Our three talls were made to look hopeless - and Harry was.


Sydney is a different proposition - they won't have the firepower to execute what Rattens side did, the umps won't be as one-sided and Fisher will add spark and smarts to the midfield rotations.

nothing else will change until Teagues changes more than one or two players out.

Meh, I agree he was out coached but that game plan is unsustainable as if a couple of things went our way on the second half we could have won.

Do you remember how many times we would take a 5 or 6 goal lead in the 3rd quarter under ratts only to be beaten.

The effort stats were well down yesterday, would be good to know why. If we stick our tackles, the outcome would likely have been different.

I like teague, but the slow first quarters are an issue and I think it's on him.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

It's Sydney btw. Makes me think this game will be rescheduled and played up there for sure.

So it's likely we have a different opponent this week.

 

[DirtyLeeds]

Agree that Teague was out coached, but he too is learning the caper. I think he needs an experienced ex coach in the box on match days, someone not afraid to call out positional moves, that's where we lost it last night, everyone without the coronavirsus knew that Geary would go to Doc, and that Steele would tag Cripps (has done in the last 5 games). What was missing was the unexpected aggressive counter move. Doc to the wing from the get go, and Cripps in the goal square for the first quarter. An experienced AFL coach who's mandate is only the opposition is needed asap. Doesn't have to be a Premiership coach, someone like Brad Scott, Rocket Eade, Alan Richardson who's only job is match day, other than homework on the next taem during the previous week.

 

[JustaBattler]

Meh, I agree he was out coached but that game plan is unsustainable as if a couple of things went our way on the second half we could have won.

Do you remember how many times we would take a 5 or 6 goal lead in the 3rd quarter under ratts only to be beaten.

The effort stats were well down yesterday, would be good to know why. If we stick our tackles, the outcome would likely have been different.

I like teague, but the slow first quarters are an issue and I think it's on him.

St Kilda did get the rub of the game a lot- especially with quite a few dodgy umpiring calls but they didn't win because they played an unsustainable brand - they outplayed us man on man AND strategically canceled out our strengths.

Ratten did what he could do with what he had to compete against - Docherty losing one on ones against their Captain and whatever his name is actually kicking two crucial first-quarter goals was a bad start. Simpson creating turnovers is no accident he does it every week. SPS playing scared and kicking sideways isn't an accident it happens every week. King matching Weitering and beating him was never entertained and there was no plan B for King...Butler decoy running Williamson out of play and then outrunning him back to goal was a Ratten strategy. Jones being a receiver was created by St Kilda. They allowed exits on their terms - and the players we had doing the job are our weak links in doing those jobs.

Our on-ball brigade getting done wasn't an accident either - they went in harder and smarter simple as that and when we did get some ball to link players they produced exactly what they are capable of - not much - Ed/Gibson and Newnes are D grade disposers - everyone knows it and yet Newnes /Gibson and Ed were precisely the blokes that ended up with it in hand - thats is on Teague and team selection.

The so-called first quarter bad starts are OUTCOMES not INPUTS.

If you lose center bounces you open up corridor entries to leading talls - you have to halve center bounce results to be in the game and our on-ball setups are atrocious. The only effective players we have are Cripps who you can put a line through for the first two quarters in any game as he is unmercifully tagged out and Martin. - because he is class but we only have one of him - last night he rotated through HBF/on ball and HFF - what an indictment on how many players on the field for us was that?

But against different sides we could get different results with same set ups - we beat EssenDONE and Geelong with same. But last night was a telling loss in my books. We can kid ourselves but if we are serious about building sustainable finals competitiveness - I cant see Murphy/Simpson/Ed /Gibson/Newnes in that equation - for starters.

We need SOJ/Fisher/DOW/Stocker on-field and performing.

oh and as for the Kreuzer knockers - no way does Kreuzer get comprehensively outplayed and beaten up by a kid.

 

[Gethelred]

Agree that Teague was out coached, but he too is learning the caper. I think he needs an experienced ex coach in the box on match days, someone not afraid to call out positional moves, that's where we lost it last night, everyone without the coronavirsus knew that Geary would go to Doc, and that Steele would tag Cripps (has done in the last 5 games). What was missing was the unexpected aggressive counter move. Doc to the wing from the get go, and Cripps in the goal square for the first quarter. An experienced AFL coach who's mandate is only the opposition is needed asap. Doesn't have to be a Premiership coach, someone like Brad Scott, Rocket Eade, Alan Richardson who's only job is match day, other than homework on the next taem during the previous week.

This is something I've seen written on here a bit, and I don't understand it.

Most coaches in the AFL don't change their plans midgame, most back their systems to turn the game around. Teague is one of the rare exceptions to this, in that he's perfectly able to come up with plans on the fly that work to bring the game around onto our terms. Take, for example, how we exited back 50 early versus how we did later; we had more penetration early, but upon turnovers on our HFF they slingshoted their way back within forward 50 to pure one on ones. After we reset, our game shifted to creating a stoppage on our HBF or wing by seeing the ball out, which allowed us to remain set up behind the ball in case we lost the clearance, and meant that if we won the play we could get it out to the front half through the corridor.

This was a change that was done completely on the fly between the first half and the second. We don't need a senior assistant to call out positional changes, we have a head coach for that. What we need is someone to ensure our player's heads are wired correctly, for some players to take personal responsibility for the team's trajectory, and for someone to find within them a bit of sniper.

 

[SurreyBlue]

Harry needs to pull his finger out and want it more. Has all the talent in the world but doesn’t look hungry for it at this time

This statement covers 45 of our playing list.

 

[Iwishicouldplay4themoney]

The driver of T train needs to stop and drop some passengers off at retirement village and at Bunnings to get some cement. And some screw in boots for willo.
Ins. Fish, kennedy, lob and stocker
Outs. Simmo, Murphy, Sps and newnes

 

[DirtyLeeds]

You're right, he does react and most of the time does it very successfully, my point is that a more seasoned "coach" could influence the timing, the horse had bolted when he reset the game plan, I contend that last night it may not have been necessary if we'd been more unpredictable. That's where another set of eyes would be useful. I like the fact that Teague is prepared to back his team in, but he sets the tone pregame, and he needs some help.