Preview R9: Changes vs. Richmond

[hugecannon]

You’re correct that it’s not that controversial, and that we do have a problem with certain midfielders hurting our rotations because of lack of positional flexibility, however I would argue against dropping Berry. Firstly I wouldnt include Soligo in that group because when he’s fully fit and firing he can be a very damaging wingman or small forward, however Berry, Peatling and especially Edwards really can’t play anywhere except midfield. This causes real issues in executing rotations, which was perfectly demonstrated by Melbourne having Oliver and Viney not able to play elsewhere. Them being out has led to Pickett and Sparrow being able to play a lot more in the midfield, and wow how good do they both look.

I think all teams can afford 1 player that only plays mid, however 2, or 3 as we saw last week, is just going to see our best players being wasted in a forward line only getting 30-40 inside 50’s. For me Berry is that player as he has improved so much from last year. He’s always been good defensively but the leg drive from stoppage is a huge addition and well worth sticking with. Therefore to me it’s Peatling that is either under pressure, or who needs to develop his wing/forward game like Soligo.

I still think the Brisbane model of having 8-10 quality midfield/forward players rotating is the ideal in modern footy. To that end, if we can bring in Zac Bailey and Tom Sparrow as free agents then we can have a genuine A grade midfield.
Dawson, Curtin, Rankine, Rachelle, Zac Bailey, Tom Sparrow, Soligo, Draper, Berry (possibly Neale) and Peatling would stack up against anyone.

Peatling does often line up at HF then
Pushes up to the middle, and Berry did the usual apprenticeship of playing mostly HF in his first few years, so I don t agree that they can’t line up elsewhere.

Berry in particular could be handy in the F50 occasionally if he can bring the defensive pressure .

 

[hugecannon]

Are we officially binning Oscar Ryan?
I have no direct knowledge about his standard of play but I seem to recall he was some sort of defensive star

I wouldn’t - I like what he has to offer but he doesn’t seem to be in the plans at all.

I’d be playing him instead of Bond.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I mean we've all sat here saying our midfield sucks all year, and yet no one wants to make any changes to the players who are actually playing in there. If everyone is happy with the status quo, we can expect to be completely found out again the next time we go up against a quality team

This is the main point .....attitudes on players change depending on a win or loss

But if we're serious about improving that midfield, someone has to go out ..... CrowBloke looking at Berry's stats is a fundamental problem .....looking at 19 tackles as a stat is one dimensional .....we want 1st touch players in that midfield, not players who are 2nd to the ball and tackle .....how is that reflected in clearances

Curtin in the midfield IMO is critical ....we can play Dawson more off HB ....a great transitional player
The tall midfielder with the current ruck rules allows for taps to be snared, as taps are being pushed out wider, rather than dropping at midfielders feet at CBA's

 

[CrowBloke]

Given how far he is into his career i don't think it's something he will able to fix.

I'm not blind. I can see the fumbles
BUT
I think there are some mitigating issues.

Mids are around the ball often (CBA's, stoppages around the ground) and frequently in congestion.
It's hard getting clean possession if you're being hassled/bumped ==> fumbles, which applies to all players under pressure.
Dawson has clean hands, but when he's being heavily tagged, guess what? Fumbles.
Likewise I've seen Rankine/Rachele/Soligo/Milera all fumble under hard pressure.

Worrell has clean hands, Cook has been exceptional this year, Curtin when AFL-match-fit.
Players like McLeod and Edwards/ Porplyzia (before his shoulder hobbled him)/ even Greenwood whom I really liked, all come to mind. Sticky fingers.

Fwiw, I think it's been Berry's best year and he's certainly lifted in the form-losses of our real stars like
Dawson/Rankine/Soligo. He's a tough workhorse, loves to breakaway and clear lines and is a tackling machine. Not our most brilliant, but never shirks a contest.

The others are Berry, Soligo and Peatling. Which of those players are in our best midfield? How would you rank them?

Of those 3, Soligo when cherry ripe > tie-between-Berry-and-Peatling, now.
If we get all of Dawson/Rankine/Rachele/Soligo/Peatling/Draper/Curtin fit and firing we'll be spoiled for choices which might squeeze Berry out of the midfield. Then I'd try Berry at HB (covering a small forward) for his contested ball, tackling and line-breaking run.

 

[kirky]

If only only second half scoring counted or footy wasn’t played over 4 quarters.

Seriously dumb comment - it hasn’t played all year and was a key in the second half. Watch the game again.

 

[kirky]

View attachment 2599470

Hes got no legs

 

[119others]

That's how I see it. Curtin should also be our first touch mid when he's ready.
Plus in we bring in Zac Bailey over the off-season, Draper develops someone has to make way.

Berry is doing a job, but the goal to win a flag and he's not good enough to stand up against our competitors - we all saw what happened against Newcombe.
He fumbles too much, gets led to the ball far too easily, turns it over under minimal pressure ie lacks class.

We were up by 21 points all the momentum of Friday night. Berry fumbles the ball and Port get a goal out of it. Could've cost us the match. A better player in that scenario we probably go on to win by 5 goals.

so berrys 29 disposals inc 18 kicks, 700+ metres gained, 19 tackles (one off the all time record), BOG performance with 156 rating points having ONE FUMBLE here costing us a goal meant we won by a point rather than 5 goals?

seriously? strike me pink

 

[119others]

This is the main point .....attitudes on players change depending on a win or loss

But if we're serious about improving that midfield, someone has to go out ..... CrowBloke looking at Berry's stats is a fundamental problem .....looking at 19 tackles as a stat is one dimensional .....we want 1st touch players in that midfield, not players who are 2nd to the ball and tackle .....how is that reflected in clearances

Curtin in the midfield IMO is critical ....we can play Dawson more off HB ....a great transitional player
The tall midfielder with the current ruck rules allows for taps to be snared, as taps are being pushed out wider, rather than dropping at midfielders feet at CBA's

but arent you being one dimensional saying he is second to the ball leading to his 19 tackles? i thought he had a team high 29 possessions and CLEAR game high of 700+ metres gained? perhaps i am mistaken?

 

[CrowBloke]

Curtin was brought back early, everyone said it, nobody expected a 20 possie game.

Yet another poster called him "a passenger".
A passenger on an AFL field is a lazy bum who doesn't put in. That's not Curtin.
He was underdone slightly, is all, as you said.

There was no way he was going to slot in and do a great job but will be better for the run (same as he would have been had he played magoos).

Not quite.
No amount of games in the SANFL prepares any player for the extra speed and pressure of AFL. In fact, many don't find their AFL-feet until they're promoted via a teammate's injury (eg Doedee, years ago, and others).
The best prep for AFL-level players is to play AFL (which is why I'd like to have seen Edwards given a block of games at least until Hawthorn).
After that knee injury Curtin would have been tentative in spite of his best intentions eg look how long it's taken Milera to shine.

That all being the case does not detract from the part of the play of his last possession being balls out excellent stuff (contest the mark, get up, follow play, take possession and find the outside runner with a path to goal...cream always rises to the top.)

Yeah, great second effort, smart positioning, classy handball instead of blazing away under time-pressure.
Our blokes are showing great confidence in Cook these days, justifiably.

 

[cmndstab]

But if we're serious about improving that midfield, someone has to go out ..... CrowBloke looking at Berry's stats is a fundamental problem .....looking at 19 tackles as a stat is one dimensional .....we want 1st touch players in that midfield, not players who are 2nd to the ball and tackle .....how is that reflected in clearances

This might be a fair point if he had, say, 12 touches and 19 tackles. But he had 29 touches and 19 tackles. That means he was first to the ball a hell of a lot... and then when he wasn't, he was able to nullify the contest 19 times.

Are we really going to say that he should have won the ball 48 times?

 

[WaynesWorld19]

but arent you being one dimensional saying he is second to the ball leading to his 19 tackles? i thought he had a team high 29 possessions and CLEAR game high of 700+ metres gained? perhaps i am mistaken?

I'd suggest you look at the tackle counts of the elite midfielders of the comp .....also look at the effectiveness of his disposals

I'm sure not too many teams worry about Berry's disposals .....as they don't with James Worpel, who is an apt comparison

This round:
Bont - 2 tackles
Neale - 3 tackles
Bailey - 4 tackles
Holmes - 2 tackles
LDU - 5 tackles

No-one is talking about Berry as being an elite midfielder ..... not one person, other than supporters after a win

 

[cmndstab]

No-one is talking about Berry as being an elite midfielder ..... not one person, other than supporters after a win

Nobody here is talking about him being elite, either. But that's not what the discussion is about, is it? People here are talking about dropping him for next week, saying that he doesn't have a place in our midfield at all.

He's not elite, but he's pretty damn handy.

 

[BRL121]

You’re correct that it’s not that controversial, and that we do have a problem with certain midfielders hurting our rotations because of lack of positional flexibility, however I would argue against dropping Berry. Firstly I wouldnt include Soligo in that group because when he’s fully fit and firing he can be a very damaging wingman or small forward, however Berry, Peatling and especially Edwards really can’t play anywhere except midfield. This causes real issues in executing rotations, which was perfectly demonstrated by Melbourne having Oliver and Viney not able to play elsewhere. Them being out has led to Pickett and Sparrow being able to play a lot more in the midfield, and wow how good do they both look.

I think all teams can afford 1 player that only plays mid, however 2, or 3 as we saw last week, is just going to see our best players being wasted in a forward line only getting 30-40 inside 50’s. For me Berry is that player as he has improved so much from last year. He’s always been good defensively but the leg drive from stoppage is a huge addition and well worth sticking with. Therefore to me it’s Peatling that is either under pressure, or who needs to develop his wing/forward game like Soligo.

I still think the Brisbane model of having 8-10 quality midfield/forward players rotating is the ideal in modern footy. To that end, if we can bring in Zac Bailey and Tom Sparrow as free agents then we can have a genuine A grade midfield.
Dawson, Curtin, Rankine, Rachelle, Zac Bailey, Tom Sparrow, Soligo, Draper, Berry (possibly Neale) and Peatling would stack up against anyone.

I'm not arguing against your general premise, but I don't believe you're accurate in your assessment of our players. In particular, Peatling certainly can play in other positions: his GWS draft profile has him as very versatile, having played HB, wing, HF, with the potential to go into the midfield rotations, hardly someone who can only play midfield. He had only just been tried as a mid by GWS before we swooped in. He has also played forward for us.

Second, while Edwards was drafted as a mid prospect, he has also been developed to have HB versatility by us: perhaps the club has been reacting to the problems you raise?

Third, I agree that each club can afford only one midfield grunt, who can't play anywhere else. For us, that's Berry, who should stay. However, even he can play elsewhere, and has. He has played forward for us, even kicking 0.8 in a half of footy! It's probably his kicking which militates against playing forward, but he has actually won a game for us with a last quarter goal. The last guy we've had who couldn't play elsewhere was Crouch.

Anyway, I would contend that we have noone who can only play midfield. Berry should remain the grunt (I mean, who else is capable of 19 tackles?), all the others can be case-by-case rotations. Our better players should be on the outside, making the most team impact with their skills. If we have too many midfielders, Dawson should revert to the roaming flanker he was before he suggested himself to address the then midfield problems. Certainly, Curtin should be tried as a mid, but not with the end aim of making him a permanent insider, just part of the rotations.

It seems that, with this scenario, a lot will rest with the skills of the midfield coach in deciding the appropriate rotations for various match stages and opponents! On Friday, the rare occurrence of both Rachele and Rankine in the mids together worked pretty well.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

This might be a fair point if he had, say, 12 touches and 19 tackles. But he had 29 touches and 19 tackles. That means he was first to the ball a hell of a lot... and then when he wasn't, he was able to nullify the contest 19 times.

Are we really going to say that he should have won the ball 48 times?

4 clearances from 71% CBA's

Wines & JHF had 7 clearances from less CBA attendances

Soligo & Rankine more clearances than Berry

Our midfield issues have always been around clearance numbers

 

[BRL121]

This is the main point .....attitudes on players change depending on a win or loss

But if we're serious about improving that midfield, someone has to go out ..... CrowBloke looking at Berry's stats is a fundamental problem .....looking at 19 tackles as a stat is one dimensional .....we want 1st touch players in that midfield, not players who are 2nd to the ball and tackle .....how is that reflected in clearances

Curtin in the midfield IMO is critical ....we can play Dawson more off HB ....a great transitional player
The tall midfielder with the current ruck rules allows for taps to be snared, as taps are being pushed out wider, rather than dropping at midfielders feet at CBA's

The 700m gained as well as the 19 tackles, is not one-dimensional stats!

 

[hugecannon]

4 clearances from 71% CBA's

Wines & JHF had 7 clearances from less CBA attendances

Soligo & Rankine more clearances than Berry

Our midfield issues have always been around clearance numbers

And quality of clearance, it’s rare we have players who can break out of the centre square and deliver the ball forward.

It’s usually hack kicks out of packs that give defenders more time to spoil.

 

[cmndstab]

4 clearances from 71% CBA's

Wines & JHF had 7 clearances from less CBA attendances

Soligo & Rankine more clearances than Berry

Our midfield issues have always been around clearance numbers

Okay? Berry is our leading clearance player for the season. He had one fewer clearance than Soligo and Rankine on the weekend, while also providing a whole heap more.

Again, I'm not trying to say he's our best player. But the idea that he should be dropped from the side is crazy.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

And quality of clearance, it’s rare we have players who can break out of the centre square and deliver the ball forward.

It’s usually hack kicks out of packs that give defenders more time to spoil.

Just watch the replay .....Berry for the most blazes away, similar to Laird .....and when pressured, panic disposes of the ball, often to dangerous parts of the ground

He needs time to settle, takes too many steps ....won't get that luxury often from the better midfields

Just objectively study him ....it's pretty obvious

 

[119others]

I'd suggest you look at the tackle counts of the elite midfielders of the comp .....also look at the effectiveness of his disposals

I'm sure not too many teams worry about Berry's disposals .....as they don't with James Worpel, who is an apt comparison

This round:
Bont - 2 tackles
Neale - 3 tackles
Bailey - 4 tackles
Holmes - 2 tackles
LDU - 5 tackles

No-one is talking about Berry as being an elite midfielder ..... not one person, other than supporters after a win

who here is saying he is elite? answer = NOBODY

just pointing out you saying he is second to the ball, hence the near record high tackle count, is 100% WRONG as his 29 possessions and 700+ metres gained show. surely you can concede that?

 

[Hodgy]

I'm not arguing against your general premise, but I don't believe you're accurate in your assessment of our players. In particular, Peatling certainly can play in other positions: his GWS draft profile has him as very versatile, having played HB, wing, HF, with the potential to go into the midfield rotations, hardly someone who can only play midfield. He had only just been tried as a mid by GWS before we swooped in. He has also played forward for us.

Second, while Edwards was drafted as a mid prospect, he has also been developed to have HB versatility by us: perhaps the club has been reacting to the problems you raise?

Third, I agree that each club can afford only one midfield grunt, who can't play anywhere else. For us, that's Berry, who should stay. However, even he can play elsewhere, and has. He has played forward for us, even kicking 0.8 in a half of footy! It's probably his kicking which militates against playing forward, but he has actually won a game for us with a last quarter goal. The last guy we've had who couldn't play elsewhere was Crouch.

Anyway, I would contend that we have noone who can only play midfield. Berry should remain the grunt (I mean, who else is capable of 19 tackles?), all the others can be case-by-case rotations. Our better players should be on the outside, making the most team impact with their skills. If we have too many midfielders, Dawson should revert to the roaming flanker he was before he suggested himself to address the then midfield problems. Certainly, Curtin should be tried as a mid, but not with the end aim of making him a permanent insider, just part of the rotations.

It seems that, with this scenario, a lot will rest with the skills of the midfield coach in deciding the appropriate rotations for various match stages and opponents! On Friday, the rare occurrence of both Rachele and Rankine in the mids together worked pretty well.

All fair. It’s not really my assesment of our players btw, I’m going off our actually set up this year. Against Brisbane we didn’t give Rachelle any midfield time until the 4th quarter when the game was lost and we played Dawson predominantly half back. Berry and Peatling played 100% midfield and Edwards almost exclusively as well until the last quarter when he played wing and Cumming moved to half back. This led to the ridiculous scenario of most of the game being Berry, Peatling and Edwards against Neale, Dunkley and Ashcroft, with 3 of our star players in Rankine, Rachelle and Tillthorpe being starved of opportunity up forward.

If the coaches believe Berry and Peatling can be high level contributors up forward then fine, play them there and give Dawson, Rankine, Rachelle and Curtin the bulk of our midfield minutes. I would even say if Edwards can be an important defender then there is a spot for him. However, if they don’t and they keep playing them exclusively in the midfield, then we are never going to be competitive with the genuine top 3 sides.

 

[Scorpus]

I'm not arguing against your general premise, but I don't believe you're accurate in your assessment of our players. In particular, Peatling certainly can play in other positions: his GWS draft profile has him as very versatile, having played HB, wing, HF, with the potential to go into the midfield rotations, hardly someone who can only play midfield. He had only just been tried as a mid by GWS before we swooped in. He has also played forward for us.

Second, while Edwards was drafted as a mid prospect, he has also been developed to have HB versatility by us: perhaps the club has been reacting to the problems you raise?

Third, I agree that each club can afford only one midfield grunt, who can't play anywhere else. For us, that's Berry, who should stay. However, even he can play elsewhere, and has. He has played forward for us, even kicking 0.8 in a half of footy! It's probably his kicking which militates against playing forward, but he has actually won a game for us with a last quarter goal. The last guy we've had who couldn't play elsewhere was Crouch.

Anyway, I would contend that we have noone who can only play midfield. Berry should remain the grunt (I mean, who else is capable of 19 tackles?), all the others can be case-by-case rotations. Our better players should be on the outside, making the most team impact with their skills. If we have too many midfielders, Dawson should revert to the roaming flanker he was before he suggested himself to address the then midfield problems. Certainly, Curtin should be tried as a mid, but not with the end aim of making him a permanent insider, just part of the rotations.

It seems that, with this scenario, a lot will rest with the skills of the midfield coach in deciding the appropriate rotations for various match stages and opponents! On Friday, the rare occurrence of both Rachele and Rankine in the mids together worked pretty well.

Who are you dropping from this full strength forward group to play Peatling or any other midfielder forward?

Thilthorpe, Fogarty, Walker, whoever of Rankine or Rachele is not in the midfield, Keays, Neal-Bullen, Ah Chee

The idea of moving our best midfielder (Dawson) out of the midfield to the flanks to accommodate worse players on the inside is dumb. Maybe if we had amazing midfielders we could do that, but not when talking about playing guys like Soligo, Berry or Peatling over him on the ball

 

[Rory Walkerfield]

Just watch the replay .....Berry for the most blazes away, similar to Laird .....and when pressured, panic disposes of the ball, often to dangerous parts of the ground

He needs time to settle, takes too many steps ....won't get that luxury often from the better midfields

Just objectively study him ....it's pretty obvious

The positive is Berry just turned 24. Watch the presser after the game and he says he is just starting to have the confidence that he belongs at afl level

 

[Scorpus]

It basically seems like people are advocating for us to use the same midfield that has been smashed in the majority of our games this year

 

[1990crow]

so berrys 29 disposals inc 18 kicks, 700+ metres gained, 19 tackles (one off the all time record), BOG performance with 156 rating points having ONE FUMBLE here costing us a goal meant we won by a point rather than 5 goals?

seriously? strike me pink

He wasn't BOG. That was Milera or Aliir Aliir.
He had many fumbles, i just highlighted an example. If you're being genuine you know there were many fumbles, and many turnovers.

And yes - that's how momentum works.

 

[1990crow]

who here is saying he is elite? answer = NOBODY

just pointing out you saying he is second to the ball, hence the near record high tackle count, is 100% WRONG as his 29 possessions and 700+ metres gained show. surely you can concede that?

Watch him. He is regularly second to the ball. Not that I would like to pushing the same opinion as Waynker.