Racing RACING FUTURES

[mcnulty]

The Japan Cup was utter dogshit when BLU won it - Horlicks won it the year before FFS - would be like Melody Belle going over there and winning it now - he wouldn't run a drum these days with a similar performance.

Yes and no. The Japanese horses are much improved now but in BLUs race there were international G1 winning Euros like Cacoethes, Petite Ile, Ibn Bey
etc. Not Europe’s best perhaps but nowadays second rate Euro imports flog our best to the point you hardly see locals in 2400m open age races here.

Naturalism ran a close second, Saintly was one of the favourites from memory before he went amiss before the race, and they were desperate to get M&P there but the owner squibbed it.

Couldnt fathom sending one of “ours“ over there now.

 

[iluvparis]

We have done this 100 times. That was the championship race of the world at the time. and if you go on about the Arc Strawberry road ran a place and he was about the 5th best horse at the time. WE were better by miles.

That comment alone is enough to discredit anything you have to say on the matter. At Talaq couldn't get near a win in Europe as an older horse before coming down here and cleaning up

 

[iluvparis]

Yes and no. The Japanese horses are much improved now but in BLUs race there were international G1 winning Euros like Cacoethes, Petite Ile, Ibn Bey
etc. Not Europe’s best perhaps but nowadays second rate Euro imports flog our best to the point you hardly see locals in 2400m open age races here.

Naturalism ran a close second, Saintly was one of the favourites from memory before he went amiss before the race, and they were desperate to get M&P there but the owner squibbed it.

Couldnt fathom sending one of “ours“ over there now.

Europe has rarely ever sent their best and Japanese horses have come on a furlong -therefore... it is a much tougher race now than it was back then - thanks for agreeing with me

 

[HeathySure]

That comment alone is enough to discredit anything you have to say on the matter. At Talaq couldn't get near a win in Europe as an older horse before coming down here and cleaning up

the statement is correct. Do some research

 

[FallingLiefs]

Say we had the best horses for a 5 year period it would be a complete fluke. There were no stallions to back it up out of that era. Our best stallions have always been sprinters since Star Kingdom in the 50s. The horses of that era were drugged up geldings.

In essence what we are arguing here is that breeders went away from it and devalued the product. I can’t see it. You couldn’t possibly ignore the rise of Danehill in that era.

Also to complete blow up a racing product in 10 years seems illogical. Can’t go from the worlds best horses to C graders winning the cup in 1 generation of horse breeding.

 

[iluvparis]

the statement is correct. Do some research

Lol it is utterly false. Total world champions of the turf ever present amongst this lot

 

[mcnulty]

I actually reckon the real drop off in quality of our middle distance/staying horses has happened even more recently. Hard to imagine one of ours winning a Duty Free like Elvestroem or even a Singapore Cup like Mummify (ok it was Singapore, but the Euros he beat, Phoenix Reach and Alexander Goldrun had solid international form). And those two were top horses here but not superstars.

We were never as good as the top Euros but we were a damn sight better than we are now.

And before anyone mentions her, Winx is what I’d call a statistical outlier.

 

[HeathySure]

Say we had the best horses for a 5 year period it would be a complete fluke. There were no stallions to back it up out of that era. Our best stallions have always been sprinters since Star Kingdom in the 50s. The horses of that era were drugged up geldings.

In essence what we are arguing here is that breeders went away from it and devalued the product. I can’t see it. You couldn’t possibly ignore the rise of Danehill in that era.

Also to complete blow up a racing product in 10 years seems illogical. Can’t go from the worlds best horses to C graders winning the cup in 1 generation of horse breeding.

I am not discounting the possibility of drugs. They were all on steroids but i cant remember what year they stopped that. I also am not sure if overseas horses were on steroids as well. I cant be stuffed doing the research on it. Dont discount the legacy of Sir Tristram and Zabeel, they would have been the best sires in the world in any country. Breeders ABSOLUTELY went away from breeding good horses for quick bucks.
I remember the uproar when Red Anchor and Best Western were retired early. Bletchingly retired early but i think was not able to be raced anymore. We brought in Galileo and Montjeu and the like and they were failures... i dont know why...

 

[HeathySure]

I actually reckon the real drop off in quality of our middle distance/staying horses has happened even more recently. Hard to imagine one of ours winning a Duty Free like Elvestroem or even a Singapore Cup like Mummify (ok it was Singapore, but the Euros he beat, Phoenix Reach and Alexander Goldrun had solid international form). And those two were top horses here but not superstars.

We were never as good as the top Euros but we were a damn sight better than we are now.

And before anyone mentions her, Winx is what I’d call a statistical outlier.

I cant say if we were as good as the Euros or not but the ones we raced against we beat easily. There was not the overseas travel that there is now.
Winx is untested. i have no idea how good she is. she has beaten nothing. Could be the best. could be over rated. we will never know

 

[HeathySure]

Lol it is utterly false. Total world champions of the turf ever present amongst this lot

View attachment 812089

wheres the proof that they werent the best?

 

[iluvparis]

wheres the proof that they werent the best?

Where's the proof that they were

 

[iluvparis]

I cant say if we were as good as the Euros or not but the ones we raced against we beat easily. There was not the overseas travel that there is now.
Winx is untested. i have no idea how good she is. she has beaten nothing. Could be the best. could be over rated. we will never know

And here the town fool proves himself for all time he has NFI

She has beaten nothing except 50+ other individual G1 winners

There is no point continuing the debate.

 

[mcnulty]

No doubting Winx‘s quality but her staying here was like equivalent Ben Simmons hanging around for the NBL. A real shame. Just like with Moraitis, connections squibbed it.

 

[AvantGardener]

Honkers, Japan, the USA, England

In the space of an hour you say Yes Yes Yes is a cat, then say English sprinters are in the convo for best sprinters. Has that English 3yo in the Everest finished yet???

 

[mcnulty]

I am not discounting the possibility of drugs. They were all on steroids but i cant remember what year they stopped that. I also am not sure if overseas horses were on steroids as well. I cant be stuffed doing the research on it. Dont discount the legacy of Sir Tristram and Zabeel, they would have been the best sires in the world in any country. Breeders ABSOLUTELY went away from breeding good horses for quick bucks.
I remember the uproar when Red Anchor and Best Western were retired early. Bletchingly retired early but i think was not able to be raced anymore. We brought in Galileo and Montjeu and the like and they were failures... i dont know why...

Wrt Galileo’s and Montjeu, I think about what happened when Australian trainers got hold of the likes of Protectionist and Americain. Horses that took 2800m to get warm and were kicking them off over 1400.

I think our racing schedule and trading methods don’t suit the modern stayer. O’Brien had the right idea with Vow and Declare (possibly the worst name for a good horse in history, except for every horse racing in Hong Kong), and it paid dividends.

 

[HeathySure]

And here the town fool proves himself for all time he has NFI

She has beaten nothing except 50+ other individual G1 winners

There is no point continuing the debate.

and Avilius won group 1 races in sydney and was legless when it met better opposition in Melbourne. Australian group 1 winners are meaningless.

 

[AvantGardener]

Wrt Galileo’s and Montjeu, I think about what happened when Australian trainers got hold of the likes of Protectionist and Americain. Horses that took 2800m to get warm and were kicking them off over 1400.

I think our racing schedule and trading methods don’t suit the modern stayer. O’Brien had the right idea with Vow and Declare (possibly the worst name for a good horse in history, except for every horse racing in Hong Kong), and it paid dividends.

Let's not create a narrative V&D is better than any other stayer in Aust over the past decade though. Absolutely everything went right.

 

[HeathySure]

Wrt Galileo’s and Montjeu, I think about what happened when Australian trainers got hold of the likes of Protectionist and Americain. Horses that took 2800m to get warm and were kicking them off over 1400.

I think our racing schedule and trading methods don’t suit the modern stayer. O’Brien had the right idea with Vow and Declare (possibly the worst name for a good horse in history, except for every horse racing in Hong Kong), and it paid dividends.

totally agree about Vow and Declares name. Its a shocker!! i think we put the wrong mares to those sires, but there is also an argument that Galileo and Montjeus horses go better on softer tracks. As for Protectionist and Americain? not a fan of Lees or Hayes but Hayes did train Harlem to win 2 Australian cups. Think that says more about our horses than training.
James Cummings is the new David Hayes btw. He is worse than O'shea and runs them in totally unsuitable races all the time.

 

[mcnulty]

Let's not create a narrative V&D is better than any other stayer in Aust over the past decade though. Absolutely everything went right.

No doubt everything went right but you barely see Oz breds in the MC these days, let alone win them. His run in the CC Cup was terrific too. So on that alone (low bar I know) I’m struggling to think of too many better locals over the trip.

 

[iluvparis]

In the space of an hour you say Yes Yes Yes is a cat, then say English sprinters are in the convo for best sprinters. Has that English 3yo in the Everest finished yet???

First part was tongue in cheek - second part -when did we last win at Royal Ascot?

 

[mcnulty]

and Avilius won group 1 races in sydney and was legless when it met better opposition in Melbourne. Australian group 1 winners are meaningless.

I think if he got a bog in Melbourne he’d be competitive Avilius, but he’d need it. Happy Clapper another that failed consistently down south. Sydney is distillation of our racing generally- great at producing young, fast horses up but beyond a mile the racing up there is dismal.

 

[iluvparis]

To be fair - Australian racing beyond a mile is dismal in all states. And they did produce Winx

 

[mcnulty]

Yes but the international presence gives the Melbourne Spring some semblance of credibility. It’s just much harder to win, as Avilius and HC demonstrate.

 

[Gavin Excell]

Dont follow the OS scene but imagine comparisons with US would be hard with so much dirt racing and different drug rules

US racing is awful

 

[Gavin Excell]

Yes but the international presence gives the Melbourne Spring some semblance of credibility. It’s just much harder to win, as Avilius and HC demonstrate.

I like our spring now compared to 20 years ago
The Cup is a far better product now than when Shocking and Brew were saluting and Lys Graciuex experience hopefully means Cox Plate can become genuinely international