Social Science Racism

[Gough]

I guess a lot of white people hold on to the acievements of others personally the same way that a lot of blacks hold on to injustices perperatrated on others personally.

Given that Apartheid was dismantled in the early 90's, the Civil Rights Act was signed into law in 1964, not to mention the the continuing issues within indigenous, the injustice that you suggest black people "hold onto", whatever that means is still fresh and may have happened to them or their family directly.

 

[gazzas army]

Given that Apartheid was dismantled in the early 90's, the Civil Rights Act was signed into law in 1964, not to mention the the continuing issues within indigenous, the injustice that you suggest black people "hold onto", whatever that means is still fresh and may have happened to them or their family directly.

In a lot of cases I dont dispute that, and I didnt mean to sound as though I did. But reality is, in todays society, with the growth of social awreness and political correctness, other peoples misfortunes can be drawn upon based on no other connection than skin color or ethnicity. Am I wrong?

 

[Messenger]

I guess a lot of white people hold on to the acievements of others personally the same way that a lot of blacks hold on to injustices perperatrated on others personally.

Really?

The achievements of the former are based on individual talents.

The injustices against the latter were perpetrated based on a common trait.

I can be proud of Howard Florey for being one of the discoverers of penicillin, but his race and nationality are not material to the work he did.

Blacks that "hold onto injustices" such as segregation in the US or apartheid in South Africa even if they have no personal experience of those times do so because it derived from part of their identity.

I'm staggered so many here are playing the "White Pride means I like being white" line. You know groups like this have a political agenda. Spare us all the disingenuous bullshit.

 

[gazzas army]

Really?

The achievements of the former are based on individual talents.

The injustices against the latter were perpetrated based on a common trait.

I can be proud of Howard Florey for being one of the discoverers of penicillin, but his race and nationality are not material to the work he did.

Blacks that "hold onto injustices" such as segregation in the US or apartheid in South Africa even if they have no personal experience of those times do so because it derived from part of their identity.

I'm staggered so many here are playing the "White Pride means I like being white" line. You know groups like this have a political agenda. Spare us all the disingenuous bullshit.

I fail to see how one thing has to do with another. I think you should stop drawing all your arguments and logic from wikipedia, and get over yourself a little. I dont for one minute think that white pride, or proud of being white is in any way being anti anything. That includes sex, color, ethnicity.

 

[Messenger]

I fail to see how one thing has to do with another. I think you should stop drawing all your arguments and logic from wikipedia, and get over yourself a little. I dont for one minute think that white pride, or proud of being white is in any way being anti anything. That includes sex, color, ethnicity.

Fine contribution.

 

[LouisCK]

Nope ....not at all. But when particular sub sections of community align themselves with other members of the community, sometimes, rightly and wrongly, they over identify and confuse the similarities. Does that make sense?

I actually can't work out what you're saying, no, so to me it doesn't make sense.

Not trying to be smart either, but I can't figure out what you meant. It might be right, or logical, I just can't figure it out.

Care to elaborate? Maybe give me an example.

 

[LouisCK]

I fail to see how one thing has to do with another. I think you should stop drawing all your arguments and logic from wikipedia, and get over yourself a little. I dont for one minute think that white pride, or proud of being white is in any way being anti anything. That includes sex, color, ethnicity.

Well please try and win me over to your way of thinking.

What is it about being white that makes you proud?

 

[J_Moore]

Blacks didn't really invent it. Without doubt blacks were the first bluesmen but even still they didn't invent the I, IV, V progression. Nor did they invent the minor pentatonic scale (or a six tone with the added flat 5t or flat 7th). They didn't invent dominant 7th chords, the fifth interval or the shuffle rhythm. All of those things went into blues and early rock, but they were all invented by white people. So who is borrowing from whom?

Guys like Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino - on and on - have all pointed their fingers at Elvis and said he started it all. And Elvis never wrote a single song....

But there sure have been some great black rockers and blues players. Not much anymore though.

Pfft, Black culture produced almost every major innovation in US (and consequently international) popular music. Blues, jazz, funk and hip hop are all essentially black artforms, with jazz bring the most significant.

It's interesting that the two most important parts of 20th century American culture - Hollywood and pop music - were essentially the products of two groups on the margins of American society: Jews and Blacks.

Saying that the blues/rock aren't really black because they didn't invent modern musical theory is an absurd historical reduction. It's like saying Impressionism wasn't an essentially French artistic movement because they didn't invent paint.

 

[J_Moore]

Ok, on reflection, that last analogy is terrible by virtue of the Chauvet cave paintings, so replace France/Impressionism with Italy/Renaissance Photorealism.

 

[Mooster7]

Pfft, Black culture produced almost every major innovation in US (and consequently international) popular music. Blues, jazz, funk and hip hop are all essentially black artforms, with jazz bring the most significant.

It's interesting that the two most important parts of 20th century American culture - Hollywood and pop music - were essentially the products of two groups on the margins of American society: Jews and Blacks.

Saying that the blues/rock aren't really black because they didn't invent modern musical theory is an absurd historical reduction. It's like saying Impressionism wasn't an essentially French artistic movement because they didn't invent paint.

If hip hop is an artform, then so is dogshit on a front lawn. Don't get me wrong, I'm willing to concede that dogshit is an artform.

"Modern" music theory isn't modern. Not as it relates to rock & blues music. those forms are basically reworked, simplified classical music. Jazz is more technically complicated (good jazz anyway) than blues, but it's reworked classical music as well. Not very reworked at that. From a guitarists viewpoint (mine) classical, jazz, blues, country, rock and metal are really the same thing played with slight difference. And it all stems from classical. This is undeniable.

There's no clear precise moment in time when rock and roll was "invented." It evolved relatively slowly and there were black bluesmen and white country pickers both doing pretty much the same thing at the same time. Scotty Moore was playing what would become "Elvis style" rock while Chuck Berry was beginning to do his thing.

I don't know how many times I've heard that the white man stole blues from the black man to make rock, but that's no more true than saying Robert Johnson inventeted his own chord progressions and the relative scale tones he played against them. Blues is it's own distinct thing for the most part, but placing A minor tones (for instance) against the chords A, D & E were being done by the classical composers. BTW I love Robert Johnson's music and I mean absolutely no disrespect.

Blacks didn't invent rock. Several musicians both black & white did over a span of years and in different locations. I was going to use your art analogy to my own benefit, but then I realized it wasn't appropriate to begin with.

 

[J_Moore]

I'm certainly not running a "white people stole the blues!!!" argument, and I'm not denying there are a bunch of important white blues, jazz and rock musicians who've all contributed to the developments of the form.

But I'm struggling to see your point. The western melodic system is as old as the ancient Greeks (probably older) the harmonic system is about 450 years old, most of our instruments developed somewhere between those periods, and everything has been developed around that. it predates most "classical" by hundreds to thousands of years.

That doesn't preclude particular countries or communities using those tools to develop their own musical styles and traditions.

Would you argue that flamenco isn't essentially Spanish gypsy music?

You seem hung up on the concept of "invention" as some sort of eureka moment, but I don't think that is what anyone else is arguing.

 

[edgie]

But whitties invented metal, right?

 

[Messenger]

If hip hop is an artform, then so is dogshit on a front lawn.

Sig worthy.

 

[Eddie Dingle]

But whitties invented metal, right?

No it was Ice-T and Bodycount.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

I guess a lot of white people hold on to the acievements of others personally the same way that a lot of blacks hold on to injustices perperatrated on others personally.

Strong post.

 

[LouisCK]

But whitties invented metal, right?

Jimi Hendrix.

 

[Old Skool]

So much fuss over melanin.

But whitties invented metal, right?

Sabbath

 

[Old Skool]

Blacks didn't really invent it. Without doubt blacks were the first bluesmen but even still they didn't invent the I, IV, V progression. Nor did they invent the minor pentatonic scale (or a six tone with the added flat 5t or flat 7th). They didn't invent dominant 7th chords, the fifth interval or the shuffle rhythm. All of those things went into blues and early rock, but they were all invented by white people. So who is borrowing from whom?

Guys like Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino - on and on - have all pointed their fingers at Elvis and said he started it all. And Elvis never wrote a single song....

But there sure have been some great black rockers and blues players. Not much anymore though.

Quite possibly the biggest load of frog shit I have ever read at BF.

Elvis started out as a crooner and a gospel singer.

Who is he trying to sound like here, Pat Boone?

[youtube]e1s-E1WWipc[/youtube]

[youtube]uxHQUvCkV20[/youtube]

Early band members "Scotty" Moore and Bill Black made a large impact on Elvis's rock and roll progression.

Chuck Berry's style (and therefore rock and rolls primary influence) can be traced back to black musician T-Bone Walker.

 

[gazzas army]

Quite possibly the biggest load of frog shit I have ever read at BF.

wow....you really OWNED him!

 

[LouisCK]

Strong post.

Except the injustices perpetrated against black people, were perpetrated against them as a group (and continue to be).

Where as the achievements of individual white people, were achievements of individuals and not reflective of the ability of the group.

Anyone read 'Guns, Germs and Steel'? It backs up that most major breakthroughs and inventions were made in Eurasia (Basically from Persia to Scotland) but by far the vast majority occurred in Arab and Persian areas.

If the 'proud to be white' crew on this thread think pride only comes from the achievements of people who share an ethnic background with themselves - would you be prepared to admit that white people are clearly number 3?

And do you deduct points for things like colonialism, genocide, slavery, exploitation of third world people for their natural resources, capitalism etc? Cause if so, we'd probably get bumped even further down the list.

Maybe your new slogan should be something like "White Pride: We're slightly better than Bangladeshi's and slightly worse than Eskimos"

 

[gazzas army]

Except the injustices perpetrated against black people, were perpetrated against them as a group (and continue to be).

Where as the achievements of individual white people, were achievements of individuals and not reflective of the ability of the group.

Anyone read 'Guns, Germs and Steel'? It backs up that most major breakthroughs and inventions were made in Eurasia (Basically from Persia to Scotland) but by far the vast majority occurred in Arab and Persian areas.

If the 'proud to be white' crew on this thread think pride only comes from the achievements of people who share an ethnic background with themselves - would you be prepared to admit that white people are clearly number 3?

And do you deduct points for things like colonialism, genocide, slavery, exploitation of third world people for their natural resources, capitalism etc? Cause if so, we'd probably get bumped even further down the list.

Maybe your new slogan should be something like "White Pride: We're slightly better than Bangladeshi's and slightly worse than Eskimos"

And right there is your Hypocrisy on display. Your arguments are more divisive and seperative than anyone elses on this thread

 

[LouisCK]

[/B]
And right there is your Hypocrisy on display. Your arguments are more divisive and seperative than anyone elses on this thread

That's not an argument, that's me taking the piss out of the whole concept of White Pride. It's simply one of the dumbest things anyone could be proud of. It's not hypocritical for me to suggest that White Pride is stupid and anyone who expresses any kind of support for it is also stupid. I'm pretty clear on that stance. I'm not worried about dividing the stupid white people who believe in white pride, from the rest of us normal, informed, logical, rational people. I don't care about correcting racism because its divisive, I care about it because its evil and stupid. I couldn't give a shit if a bunch of dumbass, cornfed, pussy rejects get offended because coloured folks get rights now.

Again, I'm not sure exactly what your argument before was because I literally couldn't understand what you were trying to say - so it wasn't a shot at you. I just think your initial analogy about blacks being upset about behaviour that used to be put on blacks is wrong, because it was:

A. Put against on them as a group of people, whereas white achievements were made by individuals - care to argue against that?

B. It still happens, therefore they aren't grabbing onto prejudice against a group that used to be persecuted, they still ARE persecuted now.

 

[gazzas army]

That's not an argument, that's me taking the piss out of the whole concept of White Pride. It's simply one of the dumbest things anyone could be proud of. It's not hypocritical for me to suggest that White Pride is stupid and anyone who expresses any kind of support for it is also stupid. I'm pretty clear on that stance.

Again, I'm not sure exactly what your argument before was because I literally couldn't understand what you were trying to say - so it wasn't a shot at you. I just think your initial analogy about blacks being upset about behaviour that used to be put on blacks is wrong, because it was:

A. Put against on them as a group of people, whereas white achievements were made by individuals - care to argue against that?

B. It still happens, therefore they aren't grabbing onto prejudice against a group that used to be persecuted, they still ARE persecuted now.

ny argument is that i hate the way ALL ethnic groups (yes including whites) have a pre disposition to alignining themselves to members of their own race religion and color. Perceptions can sometimes become reality and this is how stereotypes are formed. This topic maybe a little over my head, and im probably out of my depth here, but I know what I am saying. Racism is Racism and should not be tolerated by anyone. It can be perpertrated by anyone, including so called minorities. If someone is proud to be gay, doesnt make them anti hetro, if someone is proud to be a catholic, doesnt make them anti Muslim, if someone is proud to be white, doesnt make them anti black. When I say that I am proud to be white, I really mean I am proud of my heritage. I am caucasian, with obvious english bloodline. I am here today because of pre deterrmined circumsatnce, as we all are. The minute I boast of my heritage I am considered a racist in your eyes it seems

 

[Gough]

I hang my hat on the achievements of great white men like Benito Mussolini , Hendrik Vorwoerd and George W. Bush.
All fine examples of what white men can do when they put their minds to it.

 

[gazzas army]

I hang my hat on the achievements of great white men like Benito Mussolini , Hendrik Vorwoerd and George W. Bush.
All fine examples of what white men can do when they put their minds to it.

Thats because youre an idealogist. Me personally, Im an Idi Amin fan myself. If anyone thinks racism doesnt exist within so called minority communities maybe they should look back to the Cowen Heights riots of 1991, or read up on the Aztlan movement. All sections of the community are capable of racism, its a HUMAN predisposition. Some communities just seem to martyr in it a little deeper than others. Just sayin