Bumped Random Chat - I want BBQ

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SackLunch

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Wife and kids at a family gathering which I was not required to attend. Celebrated with solo luncheon:

Tonkotsu Chashu-men and Teppan Yakimeshi. Delicious.

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Bonus tram action on a sunny winter‘s day:

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Toump Ass

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Wife and kids at a family gathering which I was not required to attend. Celebrated with solo luncheon:

Tonkotsu Chashu-men and Teppan Yakimeshi. Delicious.
So jealous. I don't do porky stuff but goddamn I love Japanese food. I used to travel there every year, but haven't since COVID. I can't wait to go back!
 

Proper Gander

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So jealous. I don't do porky stuff but goddamn I love Japanese food. I used to travel there every year, but haven't since COVID. I can't wait to go back!
Occurred to me. In say 50 years some enterprising person is going to start up Covid tours. Enjoy a relaxing cruise on the Ruby Princess to Sydney Harbour, Go north to QLD to see the very house where Tom Hanks spent 14 days in isolation, sort of thing.

I am going to get my younger family members to get in on the ground floor.
 
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SackLunch

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So jealous. I don't do porky stuff but goddamn I love Japanese food. I used to travel there every year, but haven't since COVID. I can't wait to go back!
You’ll be glad to know things haven’t changed too much since COVID. It’s still a great place to eat out. Toump, if I remember correctly you’re very much a Tofu and fake meat kind of guy. The little Tofu shop around the corner has the best Tofu Hamburg in the city. It’s incredible. I’ll try to remember to take a pic next time we get it.

BTW, my iPad autocorrects your name to Tpump. So you’ve got that going for you, which is nice.
 

00Stinger

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If you are a Victorian who is unvaccinated you can't work to earn money, can't eat out, can't go to a bar, if you play an Australian sport you can't play, you can't go to the tennis & defiantly can't work at the tennis

But if you are an unvaccinated international tennis player none of this applies to you in Victoria

And the government wonder why a lot of people don't trust them and can't take them seriously
 

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Tbh I've only been asked for my vaccination certificate at like 3 venues since it has become mandatory and only one has followed up by asking to see an id that matches. But I see your point, letting Djokovic in is a bizarre decision from the govt, pisses off both sides of the fence, would be funny if he got Covid though.
 

00Stinger

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Tbh I've only been asked for my vaccination certificate at like 3 venues since it has become mandatory and only one has followed up by asking to see an id that matches. But I see your point, letting Djokovic in is a bizarre decision from the govt, pisses off both sides of the fence, would be funny if he got Covid though.
I've been asked for my vaccination certificate everytime I've eaten out or been to a pub (which would have to be 10+ times). Never been asked to show matching id though

It's decisions and they way it was announced like this that makes people not trust the government especially in this state. Even more amusing that no one from Tennis Australia or the government had the balls to announce the decision, they let Djokavic do that.
 

Proper Gander

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I've been asked for my vaccination certificate everytime I've eaten out or been to a pub (which would have to be 10+ times). Never been asked to show matching id though

It's decisions and they way it was announced like this that makes people not trust the government especially in this state. Even more amusing that no one from Tennis Australia or the government had the balls to announce the decision, they let Djokavic do that.
When asked why this has occurred, I guarantee the Govt response will be:

The criteria for exemption and assessment of exemption applications were overseen by an independent body, and we can’t provide further information about a persons medical status.

Only the rest of us are obliged to disclose our medical status re vaccination just to go to the pub.

The whole thing is stupid.
 

00Stinger

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When asked why this has occurred, I guarantee the Govt response will be:

The criteria for exemption and assessment of exemption applications were overseen by an independent body, and we can’t provide further information about a persons medical status.

Only the rest of us are obliged to disclose our medical status re vaccination just to go to the pub.

The whole thing is stupid.
Yeah I did hear that his medical privacy won't be disclosed. Yet every Victorian doesn't get that right if they dare go to a pub or restaurant or even want to work

In fact my local GP (that I don't frequent much tbf) was raided by the Health department without a warrant and all of his patients files were confiscated (mine included). Now if I want to get my medical files to go to a new doctor I need to go to the department of health to get my private medical files back to hand to a new GP

Now for the record I don't really give a fu** about my medical records being private personally but surely even the most ardent pro vax Daniel Andrews followers can see that we are heading down a slippery slope very fast with this kind of sh*t
 

Proper Gander

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Yeah I did hear that his medical privacy won't be disclosed. Yet every Victorian doesn't get that right if they dare go to a pub or restaurant or even want to work

In fact my local GP (that I don't frequent much tbf) was raided by the Health department without a warrant and all of his patients files were confiscated (mine included). Now if I want to get my medical files to go to a new doctor I need to go to the department of health to get my private medical files back to hand to a new GP

Now for the record I don't really give a fu** about my medical records being private personally but surely even the most ardent pro vax Daniel Andrews followers can see that we are heading down a slippery slope very fast with this kind of sh*t
Worrying as that all is, I’m a bit concerned for you that your trusted GP is being raided by anyone?
 

00Stinger

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Worrying as that all is, I’m a bit concerned for you that your trusted GP is being raided by anyone?
Raided as he was supposedly giving out false covid passes on fraudulent grounds. Now I'm not sure if this is or isn't true, I sure as hell didn't get one.

He had been promoting ivermectin as a treatment for covid which alot of athletes and well known people have as well with success and was anti the government's forced vax policy. Also he had written a few open letters to Sutton being critical of his decisions which probably rightly or wrongly made him a target.

I've gone to him for over 30 years and never had an issue with him or found him to be no good (I'm still alive). I guess the point is why can the health department raid patients files who haven't been granted covid exemptions if that is why they are raiding him? Also how can a government agency raid anyone without a warrant?

And also he is a big Melbourne supporter so yeah go Dees and fu** everyone else I guess

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Proper Gander

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Raided as he was supposedly giving out false covid passes on fraudulent grounds. Now I'm not sure if this is or isn't true, I sure as hell didn't get one.

He had been promoting ivermectin as a treatment for covid which alot of athletes and well known people have as well with success and was anti the government's forced vax policy. Also he had written a few open letters to Sutton being critical of his decisions which probably rightly or wrongly made him a target.

I've gone to him for over 30 years and never had an issue with him or found him to be no good (I'm still alive). I guess the point is why can the health department raid patients files who haven't been granted covid exemptions if that is why they are raiding him? Also how can a government agency raid anyone without a warrant?

And also he is a big Melbourne supporter so yeah go Dees and fu** everyone else I guess

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I’m only guessing here, but there are some powers that allow various investigatory bodies to demand documents, files etc including audio, video, phone records etc that aren’t a warrant. I was an investigator until i recently got promoted to something where I’m not too sure what I do.

Anyways, we often issued a simultaneous production notice, which requires a person to give you specified stuff, and an attendance notice, which requires the person to attend a specified premises to hand over the stuff and answer any questions. It has some advantages but misses the fun stuff like bringing a locksmith to force entry for search and seizure and forensic data imagery guys and so forth. Being read your rights etc still applies regardless though or any prosecution will go pear-shaped
 

Dory_77

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Agree the Djokovic stuff is bollox and does the gov no favours, just undermines their whole hardline schtick.
Although he did get COVID in 2020 didn't he, after that pissup tournament he ran? Maybe he can claim natural immunity from that.
 

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00Stinger

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I’m only guessing here, but there are some powers that allow various investigatory bodies to demand documents, files etc including audio, video, phone records etc that aren’t a warrant. I was an investigator until i recently got promoted to something where I’m not too sure what I do.

Anyways, we often issued a simultaneous production notice, which requires a person to give you specified stuff, and an attendance notice, which requires the person to attend a specified premises to hand over the stuff and answer any questions. It has some advantages but misses the fun stuff like bringing a locksmith to force entry for search and seizure and forensic data imagery guys and so forth. Being read your rights etc still applies regardless though or any prosecution will go pear-shaped
Yeah ok, what sort of investigator were you?

I'm assuming it would be like the the ATO and ASIC that can demand document proof on certain financial information (obviously my Finance background helps with this). But even surely if a business/individual didn't provide this to the government agency they would need a warrant to raid them? and tbf not handing over the appropriate documentation would probably be sufficient evidence to gain a warrant as long as the request of information is deemed reasonable. But once again surely the health department should legally and ethically only be allowed to confiscate the files of patients that were given covid exemptions if that is what they were after

But like I said I really don't know the full details, only know what I have read and as you could imagine the information is conflicting depending on what side of the argument the author is coming from
 

Proper Gander

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Yeah ok, what sort of investigator were you?

I'm assuming it would be like the the ATO and ASIC that can demand document proof on certain financial information (obviously my Finance background helps with this). But even surely if a business/individual didn't provide this to the government agency they would need a warrant to raid them? and tbf not handing over the appropriate documentation would probably be sufficient evidence to gain a warrant as long as the request of information is deemed reasonable. But once again surely the health department should legally and ethically only be allowed to confiscate the files of patients that were given covid exemptions if that is what they were after

But like I said I really don't know the full details, only know what I have read and as you could imagine the information is conflicting depending on what side of the argument the author is coming from
I conducted investigations in the education area largely related to fraud - immigration fraud is my special thing.

But I would actually be surprised if there aren’t similar powers to demand production without warrant in the health sector and the GP network. In fact I’d bet they have more enforcement powers of that nature. There is a surprising amount of significant fraud in the Medicare rebates area and a fair amount is invested in monitoring this. I don’t have a problem with it. Stealing is stealing whether from the government (taxpayers) or an old lady’s handbag.
 

00Stinger

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I conducted investigations in the education area largely related to fraud - immigration fraud is my special thing.

But I would actually be surprised if there aren’t similar powers to demand production without warrant in the health sector and the GP network. In fact I’d bet they have more enforcement powers of that nature. There is a surprising amount of significant fraud in the Medicare rebates area and a fair amount is invested in monitoring this. I don’t have a problem with it. Stealing is stealing whether from the government (taxpayers) or an old lady’s handbag.
Immigration fraud, so things like fake marriages? enrolled in tertiary education without attending? things like that?

I don't totally disagree with you in regards to theft but there are very varying levels to it imo as there is to any criminal activity

But once again surely there must be some sort of hoops for the government to jump through before they raid places? ie proof of reasonable grounds before infringing on someones privacy? Otherwise what is to stop a worker at a government agency causing hell for a normal person on baseless grounds? Obviously I am aware that the chances of the last point happening are very small, but still not outlandish in probability of occurrence
 

Proper Gander

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Immigration fraud, so things like fake marriages? enrolled in tertiary education without attending? things like that?

I don't totally disagree with you in regards to theft but there are very varying levels to it imo as there is to any criminal activity

But once again surely there must be some sort of hoops for the government to jump through before they raid places? ie proof of reasonable grounds before infringing on someones privacy? Otherwise what is to stop a worker at a government agency causing hell for a normal person on baseless grounds? Obviously I am aware that the chances of the last point happening are very small, but still not outlandish in probability of occurrence
Yeah pretty much that.

If it makes you feel any better, I believe strongly in the right to privacy and in situations where I recommended (I’m not high enough up the food chain to be the decision maker) that extreme measures be taken to enforce handing over information to further an investigation weren’t treated lightly. All of these efforts have led to warranted cancellation of a licence or prosecution. The people involved are generally part of a broader criminal enterprise profiting almost unbelievably on the backs of the people they exploit. I believe strongly that anyone invested with enforcement powers has to constantly monitor themselves and others around that those powers are only used fairly and in accordance with some really strict rules around the process. I prefer using a warrant if possible because it requires 3rd party approval from a magistrate.

I get what you’re saying, there are likely some rogue regulators around, but we wouldn’t last too long. I get pounded every time by QC types trying to prove incompetence or corruption by me or colleagues. Which is fair enough.

Anyways, your non warrant type enforcement is subject to checks and balances and can be appealed on both processes and interpretation of evidence just like any warrant.

This doesn’t make the system perfect and there are some big mistakes and bias and occasionally corruption amongst investigators generally, so you’re not wrong to have doubts about the process. This stuff needs to be scrutinised all the time.
 

00Stinger

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Yeah pretty much that.

If it makes you feel any better, I believe strongly in the right to privacy and in situations where I recommended (I’m not high enough up the food chain to be the decision maker) that extreme measures be taken to enforce handing over information to further an investigation weren’t treated lightly. All of these efforts have led to warranted cancellation of a licence or prosecution. The people involved are generally part of a broader criminal enterprise profiting almost unbelievably on the backs of the people they exploit. I believe strongly that anyone invested with enforcement powers has to constantly monitor themselves and others around that those powers are only used fairly and in accordance with some really strict rules around the process. I prefer using a warrant if possible because it requires 3rd party approval from a magistrate.

I get what you’re saying, there are likely some rogue regulators around, but we wouldn’t last too long. I get pounded every time by QC types trying to prove incompetence or corruption by me or colleagues. Which is fair enough.

Anyways, your non warrant type enforcement is subject to checks and balances and can be appealed on both processes and interpretation of evidence just like any warrant.

This doesn’t make the system perfect and there are some big mistakes and bias and occasionally corruption amongst investigators generally, so you’re not wrong to have doubts about the process. This stuff needs to be scrutinised all the time.
I 100% get your point of view too

It's a tough situation. Do you protect the privacy of individuals and potentially let criminals slip through? Or do you take away some of that privacy to stop the criminals slipping through?

Chicken or the egg argument

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Proper Gander

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I 100% get your point of view too

It's a tough situation. Do you protect the privacy of individuals and potentially let criminals slip through? Or do you take away some of that privacy to stop the criminals slipping through?

Chicken or the egg argument

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Bit of both.

It’s a massive conundrum really. Take your situation. Your medical records have been taken along with presumably others for scrutiny in the interests of a broader investigation. And you just have to cross fingers that your privacy is respected and the investigation should protect your privacy while reviewing it, and if it isn’t material discard your information and ultimately return it to its source. A pretty uncomfortable feeling.

The flip side is where something profound and threatening actually occurs, everyone bays for blood and the scapegoat tends to be government agencies - the “why didn’t they know this was going on in advance and prevent it” style of thing.

I don’t really know. On the positive side, government workers work to targets that don’t involve an annual bonus, so nobody is seeking scalps with an expectation that they will be rewarded for catching a crook. So your average officer isn’t working on that basis. But there are idiots in every profession so mistakes are made, incompetence can occur and there is inevitably going to be the odd scammer. Most of them focus on lining their own pockets through general dodgy invoicing and pocketing a portion, and exploiting your travel allowances is the go. Most get caught eventually (I hope).
 

00Stinger

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Bit of both.

It’s a massive conundrum really. Take your situation. Your medical records have been taken along with presumably others for scrutiny in the interests of a broader investigation. And you just have to cross fingers that your privacy is respected and the investigation should protect your privacy while reviewing it, and if it isn’t material discard your information and ultimately return it to its source. A pretty uncomfortable feeling.

The flip side is where something profound and threatening actually occurs, everyone bays for blood and the scapegoat tends to be government agencies - the “why didn’t they know this was going on in advance and prevent it” style of thing.

I don’t really know. On the positive side, government workers work to targets that don’t involve an annual bonus, so nobody is seeking scalps with an expectation that they will be rewarded for catching a crook. So your average officer isn’t working on that basis. But there are idiots in every profession so mistakes are made, incompetence can occur and there is inevitably going to be the odd scammer. Most of them focus on lining their own pockets through general dodgy invoicing and pocketing a portion, and exploiting your travel allowances is the go. Most get caught eventually (I hope).
Yeah to be fair I don't really care about who does/doesn't know about my health records, its more a purpose kinda thing

My wife has been a government worker for many years and in I guess what you would call in middle management, the sh*t that goes down in government spins me out, in most corporate places I have/currently work at many people would lose their jobs.
 

Proper Gander

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Yeah to be fair I don't really care about who does/doesn't know about my health records, its more a purpose kinda thing

My wife has been a government worker for many years and in I guess what you would call in middle management, the sh*t that goes down in government spins me out, in most corporate places I have/currently work at many people would lose their jobs.
She’s probably right. I get furious on a regular basis too
 

Proper Gander

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there is a reason that people don't leave government gigs
What? The usual? That they are overpaid and never work and aren’t qualified or never have any commitment to their role?

Thanks a heap Stringer. Cheers that you think that of me
 

00Stinger

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What? The usual? That they are overpaid and never work and aren’t qualified or never have any commitment to their role?

Thanks a heap Stringer. Cheers that you think that of me
No more that they pay well and have good working benefits and tend to be less cut throat*


* By this I mean in a financial sort of way as far as spending/cost cutting ext

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