Play Nice Random Chat Thread: Episode III

ferball

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You've missed the point and false equivalised again, for the umpteenth time.

There were plenty within the ALP who wanted conscription, regardless of the split or Hughes. Conscription isn't even the issue we were talking about. We are talking about happily committing Australian men overseas, to trenches in this context, in search of some assurance of Great Power protection as future recompense.
It was a minority, mostly British born old campaigners, and they consistently lost support because of it. Those few that wated it ripped the Labor party apart because of it.

It was the ALP that effectively invited Australia into the First World War (we would have been asked anyway, but we enthusiastic about the prospects of defending the Empire) in the first place and then kept sending troops to regions outside Australia's primary interests. That is the point, not some false equivalence garbage you're sprouting about conscription.
Its one thing that they went to war to support an ally - as soon as they began to understand what the war involved they resisted conscription and once they saw what a farce it was the ALP began to oppose recruitment and began supporting the strikers and other anti war measures. Australia had a volunteer army. We chose to go there and fight initially and when we saw what a joke it was we began to turn against the war. The Labor Party reflected this and the other campaigners did what the ruling class always does - work on ways to kill the poor.

My point was about modern politicians, generally speaking, do not care enough. Not enough social welfare funding is devoted to PTSD and providing other support.
True - I've known plenty of vets from Vietnam onwards and this is still the case.

You could put a lot of Australia's historical problems with alcohol and violence (public and domestic) down to PTSD from ww1 and subsequent wars imo.
 

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Kangaroos4eva

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It was a minority, mostly British born old campaigners, and they consistently lost support because of it. Those few that wated it ripped the Labor party apart because of it.



Its one thing that they went to war to support an ally - as soon as they began to understand what the war involved they resisted conscription and once they saw what a farce it was the ALP began to oppose recruitment and began supporting the strikers and other anti war measures. Australia had a volunteer army. We chose to go there and fight initially and when we saw what a joke it was we began to turn against the war. The Labor Party reflected this and the other campaigners did what the ruling class always does - work on ways to kill the poor.



True - I've known plenty of vets from Vietnam onwards and this is still the case.

You could put a lot of Australia's historical problems with alcohol and violence (public and domestic) down to PTSD from ww1 and subsequent wars imo.
Fair points, but as I stated, the issue isn't even about conscription, it's so much bigger than that. It's about committing men and blood globally and regionally in support of alliance, rather than uniquely Australian, goals. This pattern has repeated itself time and again. It'll happen with China and the USA if they ever go to war, just you wait.

The footage of the way that shell shock victims were treated still haunts me.
 

ferball

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Fair points, but as I stated, the issue isn't even about conscription, it's so much bigger than that. It's about committing men and blood globally and regionally in support of alliance, rather than uniquely Australian, goals. This pattern has repeated itself time and again. It'll happen with China and the USA if they ever go to war, just you wait.

The footage of the way that shell shock victims were treated still haunts me.
Fair enough with all of that.

However ww1 is probably the only time that was understandable given how close both nations were. Many people didn't see that much difference between them.

To be fair I think ww2 and the Curtin withdrawal from North Africa or him effectively transferring military sovereignty to MacArthur, which effectively made Australian troops restricted to the strategic whims of a foreign general, (to quote you from upthread) was an attempt to support uniquely Australian goals (ie protect us from Japanese expansion) in the context of the British not caring about our protection and wanting our soldiers in Europe to support their needs rather than ours. Dunno if it was the right thing to do but I do see it in that context.
 

Kangaroos4eva

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Fair enough with all of that.

However ww1 is probably the only time that was understandable given how close both nations were. Many people didn't see that much difference between them.

To be fair I think ww2 and the Curtin withdrawal from North Africa or him effectively transferring military sovereignty to MacArthur, which effectively made Australian troops restricted to the strategic whims of a foreign general, (to quote you from upthread) was an attempt to support uniquely Australian goals (ie protect us from Japanese expansion) in the context of the British not caring about our protection and wanting our soldiers in Europe to support their needs rather than ours. Dunno if it was the right thing to do but I do see it in that context.
That is the problem, alliance and Australian goals have become largely synonymous, thereby cutting out some of Australia's more unique interests, which are often economically or regionally based.

You can easily argue that it was in Australia's national interests in both world wars. WWI for example, getting British naval protection for Australia and its interests in exchange for an Australian commitment to the Suez Canal. And as you said, most people were swept up in the historical moment of the time.

For WWII, you can argue the same with the Singapore strategy. The British navy will sort out Singapore, even though both country's chiefs of staff both had strong reservations about its flaws, and Australian forces would protect North Africa, the Middle East (always comes back to this bloody region for Aus, GB and USA) and England (lost a heap of pilots in that theatre).

At the end of the day with both wars, bilaterally and comparatively speaking, Britain benefited far more from the arrangement than we did. We got pitiful to weak assurances from Britain for protection, a couple of ships and an average land commitment with little aircraft support, whilst tens thousands of Australian's died in the vain hope that their country would be protected by London.

This has also characterised the US-Australian alliance. We get some benefits, some of our national goals are being achieved, but not all of them and definitely not to the extent that we hope for.

Curtin is still debated about, he and especially Evatt are fascinating case studies. Chifley even more so.
 
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Val Keating

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Fair points, but as I stated, the issue isn't even about conscription, it's so much bigger than that. It's about committing men and blood globally and regionally in support of alliance, rather than uniquely Australian, goals. This pattern has repeated itself time and again. It'll happen with China and the USA if they ever go to war, just you wait.

The footage of the way that shell shock victims were treated still haunts me.
That’s why I hope Tulsi Gabbard is the next US president
 

Kangaroos4eva

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He did try a bit at the start but the lure of blowing up kids with drones was too much for him.
Shows you how grey and nasty politics really is, even Machevillian to a degree. Even with our discussion about the ALP in WWI, we are not strictly talking about right and left, most of them were centrists, each with their own differing views on conscription, the Empire and so forth. It's why some of my arguments get lost in the mud, especially talking from a macro generalised view of things.
 

Val Keating

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Good luck in that situation.

At the time, I thought Obama would be a true internationalist.
I didn’t really get into politics (tbh I’m not that into but slightly more then usual) at the time of Obama. Was he all about stepping back international intervention on his campaign?
How is Hawaii a US state? Its like making vanuatu part of Qld.
Dunno mate but it is
 

ferball

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Shows you how grey and nasty politics really is, even Machevillian to a degree. Even with our discussion about the ALP in WWI, we are not strictly talking about right and left, most of them were centrists, each with their own differing views on conscription, the Empire and so forth. It's why some of my arguments get lost in the mud, especially talking from a macro generalised view of things.
Yeah good point.
 

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Kangaroos4eva

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Ruling class born to rule entitlement right there. He'd happily send thousands to run at German machine guns and sip his pink gin and the casualty reports came in.

He reminds me a great deal of Lord Melchiot in Blackaddder.

Love Blackadder just quietly, every kid in high school should watch it.

 

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