Play Nice Random Chat Thread: Episode III

[EDFL follower]

Green Tape Prevents Volunteer Rural Firefighters from Reducing Bushfire Risk

volunteerfirefighters.org.au

 

[ferball]

I don't have your emotional limitations.



Utilising a time in the fire service as some type of imprimatur to reinforce an existing false argumentum ab auctoritate, only serves to compound the original fallacy.

Ferby is a big boy. He'll live.

You're the expert at that mate. Especially for someone who claims to be so anti authoritarian. I'm not an idiot. I'm at least as smart as you. Possibly smarter. Wouldn't surprise me, but if not no biggie. I'm smart enough to work out anything and follow anything and I have very good critical thinking skills and I stand by everything I said about these fires.

Really do some proper research if you want to learn something new. No one who knows anything about this thinks fires this widespread are a result of a "forestry oversight" (what does that even mean? Its just empty words with no relationship to reality.) The million or so hectares that's burned since winter is all due to a "forestry oversight?" how do you figure that?

The "freak weather patterns" associated with this are due to climate change ... by definition, you'd know that if you bothered getting your head around it.

Anyway i gotta go to bed. I'll be back out there at a sparrows fart just in time for this ballistic wind change to get there.

 

[ferball]

Green Tape Prevents Volunteer Rural Firefighters from Reducing Bushfire Risk

volunteerfirefighters.org.au

That organisation is a joke. They don't represent us. They've never said or done a thing to assist the welfare of my fire fighters, unlike the RFS and the RFSA, whatever criticism they might deserve.

That press release is full of s**t and not worth pissing on. That campaigner should be ashamed of himself. There's no green tape stopping hazard reductions. What a *en idiot. Lack of bodies and an ever lengthening fire season are the reason we don't get the HR burns in that we used to do and would like to do now.

Also we are much more careful now. Poorly planned and executed HR burns are responsible for more bush fires in Australia than malicious arson. They've killed civillians and fire fighters, wiped out property worth 10s of millions and as a result are more carefully managed and planned than they were in the past.

Its flat out wrong.

Shooting is too good for some people.

 

[ferball]

Where did this whole idea about the Greens opposing backburning and fire management come from? As far as I can see it's one of their main policies.

Out of the arses of morons.

 

[ferball]

Well, well, well, the HIPPIES that actually LIVE THERE claim it was poor bush management practices that set off this entire s**t storm.

Hippies of Nimbin admit bush got too wild



Nimbin environmentalist Michael Balderstone on Monday. Picture: Vanessa Hunter

Graham Lloyd
ENVIRONMENT EDITOR
12:00AM November 12, 2019

The greenies have a lot to answer for over the incendiary state of the Australian bush.

This is the view of Michael Balderstone, hemp candidate, deep environmentalist and leading figure in the Nimbin community, which is now beset by fire.

“They (greenies) own it,” Mr Balderstone said. “The Greens have to cop it on the head, they have been obsessed with no fires and no burning.”

Mr Balderstone says the lessons from indigenous land managers have been forgotten.

“The Aboriginals say it is country gone wild,” he said. “We were just blind to their knowledge.”

The hills of northern NSW are ablaze with an out-of-control bushfire that, with an expected change in wind, could on Tuesday race for the coast near Byron Bay.

Des Layer has for 30 years ridden his horses through hills now being ravaged by fire. For decades he has watched the structure of the bush change from what he says is poor logging and lax management.



Nimbin resident Des Layer says he has not seen such a large fuel load in the national parks in his 30 years of riding horses in northeast NSW.

Before the area became national park, Mr Layer said, he would get permits to collect firewood from the state forests. Since the national park was declared there had been no permits issued.

“It has just been building up,” he said.

A generation of locals, raised on forest protest, are being forced to confront some tough truths about forest fuel loads and management. Communities that have been on the frontline to stop logging and expand national parks are seeking refuge as fire threatens to consume their homes.

Protesters Falls near Terania Creek, the site of Australia’s first environmental blockade in August 1979, is surrounded by an out-of-control blaze in the Nightcap National Park. Tuntable Creek community, a free-spirited community that grew from Nimbin’s counter-culture movement of the 1970s, was one of the first settlements to be evacuated.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Micheal needs to straighten up and get his s**t together. (Not saying his argument doesn't have some merit but it doesn't apply in this case.)

The reason so much weed and s**t grows around here is so people can grow their own weed and s**t and thats got nothing to do with these fires. Mate the *en weeds are still everywhere. What's burning is bush that usually is too wet to burn. In fact its always been too wet to burn. All that other crap is still there, just waiting for summer...

The fuel loads thru the national park are high cos of the drought. The rainfall usually mulches and rots that fuel into hummus. Its not happening cos there is no rain so its sat there for 18 to 20 months building up. Terania creek was still flowing when we were up there on Sunday saving the houses at the end of terania creek rd, where that protest was held. The forest was still cool. But i've spent years in and out of that natuional park and i've never seen that much leaf matter on the ground and I've never seen so many logs and branches lying around. Ole mate Des doesn't have any chance of pickling them all up, neither does anyone else. 100 mm of rain in a few days during the height of summer will rot a 200mm wide chunk of rainforest softwood in weeks. More will do it days.

The only fire management that will work properly in Australia is indigenous fire management. IIRC the average number of fires lit by any indigenous family group was up to 5000 per year. But they were rarely over an acre in size. In fact they were rarely over 300 square metres. If it could burn you'd burn it. So fuel never built up enough to drive fires into the crown. They'd come to a campsite, burn it, then set up camp. However I'm too tired for that argument tonight. No doubt you're already triggered tef.

But if you're basically naked and barefoot then you need to manage the fire risk in Australia very carefully.

 

[ferball]

AFAIK the Greens don't run Lismore City Council nor Parks NSW. The NSW Greens' policy on bushfires advocates doing all of the things that the person in this article accuses them of supporting not doing.

You accused someone else of posting the local mayor's opinion on the fires as not logically sound, I think you should hold yourself to the same standard.

Especially Micheal. He is a politician too. He started the HEMP party. They directly compete with the Greens for votes around here. You could call me a hippy who lives there if you like. (i live there and plenty of you campaigners would.) I don't claim this:

Well, well, well, the HIPPIES that actually LIVE THERE claim it was poor bush management practices that set off this entire s**t storm.

Its factually wrong.

You can't do HRs in the forest burning in the Mt Nardi fire. (The one that's behind Nimbin and that we're at, mostly.) This is the only time I've ever seen it dry enough to burn and I've been in and out of there for decades. Even in the 2003 drought it was too wet.

Micheal might have a point about mosaic burning and indigenous land management but that requires people living in the bush and burning small cool fires every day, sometime 10 or 20 a day. Its just not gonna work with our society.

 

[Sopwiths North]

Thanks but its okay. He wasn't being malicious - it was genuinely funny.

Sometimes he pushes the line but that made me laugh.

Based on the general tone of much of his posting, and given that he's the equivalent of Snake's lapdog on here, it's pretty hard for me to accept that there was complete innocence to his "joke". He's never given any of your fire posts any likes, but he's all ready to jump on board with Snake's snide remarks about wielding a hose and chopping down shrubs. That says it all to me.

I just call it as I see it ferbs. Sure, I could be wrong. But to me it didn't look all that innocent, coming from a poster who regularly uses a "joking" persona in order to weasel around the fact that he what he actually aligns himself with is often pretty crap stuff.

Anyways, I'm out. Keep up all the good work.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Green Tape Prevents Volunteer Rural Firefighters from Reducing Bushfire Risk

volunteerfirefighters.org.au

Oh dear.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Based on the general tone of much of his posting, and given that he's the equivalent of Snake's lapdog on here, it's pretty hard for me to accept that there was complete innocence to his "joke". He's never given any of your fire posts any likes, but he's all ready to jump on board with Snake's snide remarks about wielding a hose and chopping down shrubs. That says it all to me.

I just call it as I see it ferbs. Sure, I could be wrong. But to me it didn't look all that innocent, coming from a poster who regularly uses a "joking" persona in order to weasel around the fact that he what he actually aligns himself with is often pretty crap stuff.

Anyways, I'm out. Keep up all the good work.

It looks as though you have run out of ideas.

 

[Istanbul Roo]

Factcheck: Is there really a green conspiracy to stop bushfire hazard reduction?

Firefighters are trying to contain dozens of fires across two states, but a familiar blame game has already begun

www.theguardian.com

Conclusion:
According to Bradstock, Joyce’s claims are familiar but “without foundation.”
“It’s simply conspiracy stuff. It’s an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation away from climate change.”
A former NSW fire and rescue commissioner, Greg Mullins, has written this week that the hotter and drier conditions, and the higher fire danger ratings, were preventing agencies from carrying out prescribed burning.
He said: “Blaming ‘greenies’ for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.”

 

[Groin guru]

Based on the general tone of much of his posting, and given that he's the equivalent of Snake's lapdog on here, it's pretty hard for me to accept that there was complete innocence to his "joke". He's never given any of your fire posts any likes, but he's all ready to jump on board with Snake's snide remarks about wielding a hose and chopping down shrubs. That says it all to me.

I just call it as I see it ferbs. Sure, I could be wrong. But to me it didn't look all that innocent, coming from a poster who regularly uses a "joking" persona in order to weasel around the fact that he what he actually aligns himself with is often pretty crap stuff.

Anyways, I'm out. Keep up all the good work.

When you're wrong don't just double down...triple down

The point snake made was correct. Being a volunteer fire fighter doesn't make you and expert all things climate related. That's the difference - some people can separate different facets. There is the volunteer side of ferbs - awesome, good job mate. Australia needs more of that. Honest hardwork and genuine care for your community.
Then there is the discussion of science and if someone thinks you're wrong they should be able to voice it. Just like the individual (ferb in this case) should be open to discussion.

You on the other hand see ferbs the volunteer and think everything he says is correct. You're either naive or unwilling to raise it because you think it isn't the right thing to do. So instead you act as the white knight: "how dare anyone challenge ferbs...he's a volunteer and not lazy like you two"

Thank goodness there are still people willing to talk rationally and with logic over emotion. Your lapdog comment is hilarious. Thank christ there is more than one person in here with some common sense. I know there are more in here that agree and mirror some of the thoughts that snake and i have , but are either unwilling to engage because it's not worth the drama or don't want to because the outrage mob will come down on them. A prime example of modern society. Fall in line or your type will try and paint the outcasts as terrible human beings. Unfortunately people do it well enough that others are terrified to voice their true opinions.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Factcheck: Is there really a green conspiracy to stop bushfire hazard reduction?

Firefighters are trying to contain dozens of fires across two states, but a familiar blame game has already begun

www.theguardian.com

Conclusion:
According to Bradstock, Joyce’s claims are familiar but “without foundation.”
“It’s simply conspiracy stuff. It’s an obvious attempt to deflect the conversation away from climate change.”
A former NSW fire and rescue commissioner, Greg Mullins, has written this week that the hotter and drier conditions, and the higher fire danger ratings, were preventing agencies from carrying out prescribed burning.
He said: “Blaming ‘greenies’ for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.”

Greg Mullins, Author at Climate Council

www.climatecouncil.org.au

 

[Snake_Baker]

When you're wrong don't just double down...triple down

The point snake made was correct. Being a volunteer fire fighter doesn't make you and expert all things climate related. That's the difference - some people can separate different facets. There is the volunteer side of ferbs - awesome, good job mate. Australia needs more of that. Honest hardwork and genuine care for your community.
Then there is the discussion of science and if someone thinks you're wrong they should be able to voice it. Just like the individual (ferb in this case) should be open to discussion.

You on the other hand see ferbs the volunteer and think everything he says is correct. You're either naive or unwilling to raise it because you think it isn't the right thing to do. So instead you act as the white knight: "how dare anyone challenge ferbs...he's a volunteer and not lazy like you two"

Thank goodness there are still people willing to talk rationally and with logic over emotion. Your lapdog comment is hilarious. Thank christ there is more than one person in here with some common sense. I know there are more in here that agree and mirror some of the thoughts that snake and i have , but are either unwilling to engage because it's not worth the drama or don't want to because the outrage mob will come down on them. A prime example of modern society. Fall in line or your type will try and paint the outcasts as terrible human beings. Unfortunately people do it well enough that others are terrified to voice their true opinions.

There's two possible answers here.

1) Sopwith's didn't correlate the obvious context in which we were utilising Ferb's comment, and is therefore too stupid to engage in this conversation.

2) Sopwith's did correlate the obvious context in which we were utilising Ferb's comment, has no viable response, and is now running with a virtue signalling deflection exercise. It's an infantile bullshit shaming stunt.

Either outcome is symptomatic of a poor thinker.

The matters relating to Ferbs service in the CFA were never questioned beyond his use of this claim to support a poor analysis. A person of reasonable intelligence would know this.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Being a volunteer fire fighter doesn't make you and expert all things climate related.

Let me assure you, there's very few people on the planet that are "experts" in such matters.

It's incredibly complex science. Definitely waaaaay beyond the scope of bureaucrats and politicians.

I defer to organisations of high scientific integrity such as the RSC. Stay away from ANYTHING political.

Is pumping CO2 at current levels good for the environment from a human perspective? Very likely not.

What do the plants think? They ****ing love it.

Does some politician/bureaucrat think they know how modern technological society impacted on climate and started a bushfire in N.S.W. in 2019? It's ****ing absurd to even entertain the notion....................yet here we are.

 

[Val Keating]

Let me assure you, there's very few people on the planet that are "experts" in such matters.

It's incredibly complex science. Definitely waaaaay beyond the scope of bureaucrats and politicians.

I defer to organisations of high scientific integrity such as the RSC. Stay away from ANYTHING political.

Is pumping CO2 at current levels good for the environment from a human perspective? Very likely not.

What do the plants think? They ****ing love it.

Does some politician/bureaucrat think they know how modern technological society impacted on climate and started a bushfire in N.S.W. in 2019? It's ****ing absurd to even entertain the notion....................yet here we are.

You know what else plants love?

Rain.

Monday was the first time on record where there was no rain recorded on the continent of Australia.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You know what else plants love?

Rain.

Monday was the first time on record where there was no rain recorded on the continent of Australia.

Science time.

There are ~1,385,926,500 cubic kilometers of water on the planet.

There are ~1,000,000,000 litres to a cubic kilometer.

This totals ~ 1,385,926,500,000,000,000 litres of water on the planet = >1.3 quintillion litres

The earth loses ~ 25,000 litres of water from the atmosphere daily. This doesn't factor water that is created.

I'm not going to start hoarding just yet.

 

[Val Keating]

Science time.

There are ~1,385,926,500 cubic kilometers of water on the planet.

There are ~19,512,092,761,250 litres to a cubic kilometer.

This totals ~ 27,042,326,428,274,550,000,000 litres of water on the planet = >27 sextillion litres.

The earth loses ~ 25,000 litres of water from the atmosphere daily. This doesn't factor water that is created.

I'm not going to start hoarding just yet.

Of course you don’t have to start hoarding. It won’t really impact in our lifetime.

Everyone needs to know that it’s real though and we need to make a choice. Im sick of people using misinformation around what is happening so they don’t have to deal with it. We are wrecking the planet for future generations, there’s no question about that. We need to force our government (across the globe) to openly discuss if are we going to stop everything for the sake of future generations or are we going to just say * em and go full steam ahead. There is no being half pregnant on this.

I’ll be honest. I’m not doing s**t unless proper change is implemented where it matters. Everything else is just pissing in the wind.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Of course you don’t have to start hoarding. It won’t really impact in our lifetime.

It won't impact most of the remaining lifetime of the entire planet.

Based upon current thermodynamics & kinetics we have approximately 152 billion years before all the water currently on earth is lost in to space, without taking in to account the chemical processes creating water on the planet.

Astrophysicists predict that the sun will consume the earth in ~ 7.5 billion years time.

There is no water issue.

 

[Val Keating]

It won't impact most of the remaining lifetime of the entire planet.

Based upon current thermodynamics & kinetics we have approximately 152 billion years before all the water currently on earth is lost in to space, without taking in to account the chemical processes creating water on the planet.

Astrophysicists predict that the sun will consume the earth in ~ 7.5 billion years time.

There is no water issue.

By ‘it’ I’m referring to the effect of global warming on civilisation

 

[Snake_Baker]

By ‘it’ I’m referring to the effect of global warming on civilisation

Civilizations rise & fall.

If we * it up then the lizards deserve to rise again.

 

[Val Keating]

Civilizations rise & fall.

If we fu** it up then the lizards deserve to rise again.

Absolutely. I just think it should be a conscious decision. Not hide behind ignorance

 

[Snake_Baker]

Absolutely. I just think it should be a conscious decision. Not hide behind ignorance

Don't take this the wrong way Val, as I think you're a well meaning person (at least this persona anyway), but you are also ignorant about this stuff.

You have been wound up and frightened by other people who don't understand the real issues at stake.

Read this: https://royalsociety.org/-/media/Ro...nce-causes/climate-change-evidence-causes.pdf

Notice how it is written in a balanced, open minded manner, and doesn't consistently conclude with absolute outcomes?

Example (page 2):

GREENHOUSE GASES such as carbon dioxide (CO2) absorb heat (infrared radiation) emitted from Earth’s surface. Increases in the atmospheric concentrations of these gases cause Earth to warm by trapping more of this heat. Human activities—especially the burning of fossil fuels since the start of the Industrial Revolution—have increased atmospheric CO2 concentrations by about 40%, with more than half the increase occurring since 1970. Since 1900, the global average surface temperature has increased by about 0.8 °C (1.4 °F). This has been accompanied by warming of the ocean, a rise in sea level, a strong decline in Arctic sea ice, and many other associated climate effects. Much of this warming has occurred in the last four decades. Detailed analyses have shown that the warming during this period is mainly a result of the increased concentrations of CO2 and other greenhouse gases. Continued emissions of these gases will cause further climate change, including substantial increases in global average surface temperature and important changes in regional climate. The magnitude and timing of these changes will depend on many factors, and slowdowns and accelerations in warming lasting a decade or more will continue to occur. However, long-term climate change over many decades will depend mainly on the total amount of CO2 and other greenhouse gases emitted as a result of human activities.

This is how scientists process information.

The politicians, bureaucrats and activists dive on this and ramp it up emotionally for their own purposes, and THIS is what the layperson interprets as FACT.

If you can learn to differentiate between the two, then you are on your way to becoming a better thinker.

 

[Val Keating]

Don't take this the wrong way Val, as I think you're a well meaning person (at least this persona anyway), but you are also ignorant about this stuff.

You have been wound up and frightened by other people who don't understand the real issues at stake.

That’s cool, I know I’m out of my depth when it comes to the scientific nuts and bolts of it. I don’t need to know all of that. I’m just listening to what the experts are telling us.

Im not wound up be it. I haven’t changed my life in the slightest. I just think people need to be genuine about what we are doing.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I’m just listening to what the experts are telling us.

This is the crux of the issue, the overwhelming majority of opinion you are getting on climate matters, is not expert opinion.

Im not wound up be it. I haven’t changed my life in the slightest. I just think people need to be genuine about what we are doing.

Read my edit mate (link), and please take it literally.

Do not press gang this information in to your existing political programming.

 

[Groin guru]

That’s cool, I know I’m out of my depth when it comes to the scientific nuts and bolts of it. I don’t need to know all of that. I’m just listening to what the experts are telling us.

Im not wound up be it. I haven’t changed my life in the slightest. I just think people need to be genuine about what we are doing.

There is hope for you yet Val. I won't give up on you.