Play Nice Random Chat Thread IV

[The Warlord]

Police brutality has existed as long as there has been police, everywhere in the world. It is not something unique to America. My point of the state issue is the state police is a state jurisdiction, say you are elected as president of the USA, if you attempted to force some kind of change to the police, you would be dragged to court and blocked, much like with what has happened every time Trump has attempted to do something he has lacked jurisdiction.

My amusement at the Trump derangement syndrome exists because in almost every facet Obama was as bad, if not worse, and nobody ever called out his s**t. Because he has a silver tongue and understands the political game, people excused him for every atrocity under the sun, some felt they couldn't criticise him because he was black. I think if you treat people differently or hold them to a lesser standard you would someone else then to me that is soft racism, the bigotry of low expectation. I think if Trump said what people on the left wanted to hear but did what he has done regardless then people would have been less hysterical about him. If optics is the only issue then the country is never going to change.

The vast majority of black deaths come from Democratic strongholds and black people largely give the Democrats their votes by default regardless of their policies or their lack of track record in actually doing something to help them. Even though black people are only 13% of the population, they have significant political influence in the states where their numbers are concentrated, the same states which have violence issues, crime issues and police brutality issues. They need to use their political influence to get people elected who are actually going to produce results, regardless if those candidates are democrat, republican or independant. If you keep rewarding political parties that do nothing with your automatic vote, they are going to continue to do nothing because they have no incentive to elevate you out of the gutter if you living in the gutter guarantees them your vote.

The status quo has existed for so long because nobody is being forced to produce results. The president doesn't have the power to make the changes you think he can make, it has to come from state governments.



The Minneapolis chief of police is Medaria Arradondo, a black man. Do you think he is all for police murdering civilians, particularly black civilians? He has been chief of police since 2017. His predecessor was Janee Harteau, she was native american, openly gay and female, she ticks all the diversity boxes, she resigned after the Australian woman was shot dead by a Somali-American police officer. Why aren't all these diverse people making any difference to the Minneapolis police force despite having an active role in employing, training and micromanaging these police officers. You think someone who has the macro responsibility to run the country can micromanage ever single police force?

If the black people don't blame trump, why are they marching on Washington? What do they expect him to do when he doesn't have any authority over the state based police forces. If Obama couldn't get anything done as a Democrat, what do people honestly think Trump can do?



The protests started and continue to be peaceful.

I make the distinction between protestors and rioters/looters/thugs. I do not think they are the same people and there have been clashed between peaceful protestors and the other group as they do not want their protest associated with their criminal behaviour.

I do not believe for a minute that Floyd protestors are killing black people, like David Dorn, who was trying to protect a pawn store from being looted, or the many black business owners who had their businesses destroyed by rioters and looters. Do you think they are protesting Floyd's death by murdering black people and destroying business owned by black people?

I am not going to link it but there is video of Dorn's death, it is quite confronting and I think people need to see it if they are conflicted between the different groups. If you look at the violence inflicted on innocent civilians who had the misfortune of being in the way. To blame this on police or excuse their behaviour is surprising. They even took a puppy from a shelter, tortured it on live tv and ended up killing it by choking it to death. Calling these type of people animals is an insult to animals, animals do not know cruelty or malevolence at this level.



Do you think people mourning Floyd's death and want to see justice are the same people killing black man like David Dorn?



People on the left have a neurotic fear of fascists, which do not exist in the Republican party, but are also the same people who covert with people who do not make any attempt to hide their batshit crazy authoritarian far left ideology. People should actually go to the Antifa website and see the kind of s**t they stand for.

This fascist bogeyman doesn't exist, sane people across the world aren't afraid of a far right uprising, they are afraid of the far left lunatics, it is why almost every western country and shifting towards the right, it isn't because they want a fascist government, because we have safeguards to protect ourselves from fascists... it is the fear of the murderous regimes people on the left openly cavort with make excuses for their abhorrent behaviour. It is disturbing, to put it mildly.

The Antifa website? The one run by white supremacists.

Lol at the "neurotic fear of fascists".

You really do live a sheltered existence.

 

[Tectonic]

Well I've tried to find it but there doesn't seem to be an antifa website, there's antifa.com, which is newly created and is just a copy/paste of an essay from the southern poverty law center:

Designating Antifa as Domestic Terrorist Organization Is Dangerous, Threatens Civil Liberties

Amid sustained civil unrest at protests over the killing of George Floyd, President Donald Trump tweeted Sunday, “The United States of America will be designating ANTIFA as a Terrorist Organization.”

www.splcenter.org

And nothing else.

There's also this one

Home | antifa.org

www.antifa.org

These guys,

Refuse Fascism

In the Name of Humanity We REFUSE to Accept a Fascist America

refusefascism.org

Are AN anti fascist group, but I don't see anything particularly damning in their mission statement

 

[Tectonic]

 

[Snake_Baker]

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Trump and social media plays those who need to believe antifa are a threat like fiddles. They haven’t got the skills to seperate fact from institutional programming.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Trump and social media plays those who need to believe antifa are a threat like fiddles............

But not you?

 

[Snake_Baker]

This is what happens when politics perverts science (for the billionth time)

How can the virus tell?! Anti-racism protests SAFE from Covid-19, but anti-lockdown protests are NOT, health ‘experts’ claim

An open letter signed by hundreds of self-styled health ‘experts’ touts “protests against systemic racism” as not only Covid-19 safe but “vital to the national public health” - while protests against lockdowns remain deadly.

www.rt.com

 

[goalieboy82]

 

[Snake_Baker]

The issues this poor child is going to have..............

 

[DesertRoo]

Police brutality has existed as long as there has been police, everywhere in the world. It is not something unique to America. My point of the state issue is the state police is a state jurisdiction, say you are elected as president of the USA, if you attempted to force some kind of change to the police, you would be dragged to court and blocked, much like with what has happened every time Trump has attempted to do something he has lacked jurisdiction.

My amusement at the Trump derangement syndrome exists because in almost every facet Obama was as bad, if not worse, and nobody ever called out his s**t. Because he has a silver tongue and understands the political game, people excused him for every atrocity under the sun, some felt they couldn't criticise him because he was black. I think if you treat people differently or hold them to a lesser standard you would someone else then to me that is soft racism, the bigotry of low expectation. I think if Trump said what people on the left wanted to hear but did what he has done regardless then people would have been less hysterical about him. If optics is the only issue then the country is never going to change.

The vast majority of black deaths come from Democratic strongholds and black people largely give the Democrats their votes by default regardless of their policies or their lack of track record in actually doing something to help them. Even though black people are only 13% of the population, they have significant political influence in the states where their numbers are concentrated, the same states which have violence issues, crime issues and police brutality issues. They need to use their political influence to get people elected who are actually going to produce results, regardless if those candidates are democrat, republican or independant. If you keep rewarding political parties that do nothing with your automatic vote, they are going to continue to do nothing because they have no incentive to elevate you out of the gutter if you living in the gutter guarantees them your vote.

The status quo has existed for so long because nobody is being forced to produce results. The president doesn't have the power to make the changes you think he can make, it has to come from state governments.



The Minneapolis chief of police is Medaria Arradondo, a black man. Do you think he is all for police murdering civilians, particularly black civilians? He has been chief of police since 2017. His predecessor was Janee Harteau, she was native american, openly gay and female, she ticks all the diversity boxes, she resigned after the Australian woman was shot dead by a Somali-American police officer. Why aren't all these diverse people making any difference to the Minneapolis police force despite having an active role in employing, training and micromanaging these police officers. You think someone who has the macro responsibility to run the country can micromanage ever single police force?

If the black people don't blame trump, why are they marching on Washington? What do they expect him to do when he doesn't have any authority over the state based police forces. If Obama couldn't get anything done as a Democrat, what do people honestly think Trump can do?



The protests started and continue to be peaceful.

I make the distinction between protestors and rioters/looters/thugs. I do not think they are the same people and there have been clashed between peaceful protestors and the other group as they do not want their protest associated with their criminal behaviour.

I do not believe for a minute that Floyd protestors are killing black people, like David Dorn, who was trying to protect a pawn store from being looted, or the many black business owners who had their businesses destroyed by rioters and looters. Do you think they are protesting Floyd's death by murdering black people and destroying business owned by black people?

I am not going to link it but there is video of Dorn's death, it is quite confronting and I think people need to see it if they are conflicted between the different groups. If you look at the violence inflicted on innocent civilians who had the misfortune of being in the way. To blame this on police or excuse their behaviour is surprising. They even took a puppy from a shelter, tortured it on live tv and ended up killing it by choking it to death. Calling these type of people animals is an insult to animals, animals do not know cruelty or malevolence at this level.



Do you think people mourning Floyd's death and want to see justice are the same people killing black man like David Dorn?



People on the left have a neurotic fear of fascists, which do not exist in the Republican party, but are also the same people who covert with people who do not make any attempt to hide their batshit crazy authoritarian far left ideology. People should actually go to the Antifa website and see the kind of s**t they stand for.

This fascist bogeyman doesn't exist, sane people across the world aren't afraid of a far right uprising, they are afraid of the far left lunatics, it is why almost every western country and shifting towards the right, it isn't because they want a fascist government, because we have safeguards to protect ourselves from fascists... it is the fear of the murderous regimes people on the left openly cavort with make excuses for their abhorrent behaviour. It is disturbing, to put it mildly.

You know there’s a simple solution to the police brutality.
if the cops over there shift focus from a security role into a social worker role. We would see a lot less crime/prisoners/intergenerational incarceration.
we’d also see a development in community and seismic shift in attitude towards police.

but look that’s just a crazy leftist idea that hasn’t worked anywhere else in the world....

 

[DesertRoo]

Trump and social media plays those who need to believe antifa are a threat like fiddles. They haven’t got the skills to seperate fact from institutional programming.

It’s brilliant as it’s also got all the collage campus kids running around breaking s**t, coz we’re part of a gang now...
and we’re gonna overthrow the Goverment man.

Has any of them actually put in 2 seconds of thought, if they actually did? They’d be a massive power vacuum, filled by who?

 

[Tas]

Stick to defending child rapists.

I don't need you to copy and paste wiki on s**t like this

The pseudo-intellectual, they always resort to insults. Come on, there must be some substance behind your academia buzz words, surely you have an opinion that someone else hasn't dictated for you.

What child rapists are you referring to? You mean Pell? I didn't defend him. I just said I wouldn't be able to find an accusation alone to convince me beyond any reasonable doubt of a crime that requires that standard to be met. Especially when one of the alleged victims went to his grave denying he was ever abused. As much as you may not like my point of view, if for whatever reason you are one day falsely accused of a crime like that, you will be praying to have people like me on the jury.

So far everyone who has parrotted the believe all women and believe all victims mantra who have had accusations levelled at them at some point in the future have vigorously demanded innocent until proven guilty, due process and the rule of law. I am just not a colossal hypocrite like everyone else who waits until they are the one in the crosshairs before believing in the rule of law. We have an imperfect system but if people didn't lie we could live in a fantasy world where we could just believe accusations. That fantasy world doesn't exist so we need evidence to overcome reasonable doubt and there was not a single shred of evidence other than the testimony of the alleged victim, I am not sure how they expected to win that case and I was surprised the jury came to that conclusion. If the bar is that low then I would hate to piss off an actor who was able to give a sterling performance on trial.

I don't know if Pell did what he was accused of or not. None of the other choir boys knew anything about it, none of the clergy did, it was either the greatest coverup in history or the person lied about the accusation. I don't know how you can expect a bunch of bozos sitting on the jury to be able to tell which one and the law doesn't require you as a juror to be a master sleuth, the burden is entirely on the prosecution to prove beyond any reasonable doubt and in my opinion they didn't do that, not remotely close to it.

I know people believe he is guilty and don't care if the law fails in this instance but people lie often enough and confess to fabricating false charges, some times for the pettiest of reasons. I have zero confidence that Pell is innocent, but I don't have a lot of confidence that anyone is telling the truth either, it is why I need evidence to come to a conclusion. I am not sure why you believe that this position is wrong. It is far from perfect and it makes it easier for guilty people to get away with crimes, but our legal system is based around the premise that it is better to have someone get off with a crime than it is to put an innocent person in jail for a long time and ruin their life permanently if they are innocent.

I have about the same level of confidence that justice was met as I was with the Daw case. I don't know if either of them were guilty of the charges levelled at them, but there was at least an eyewitness against Daw. There was a lot more evidence against Daw than there was against Pell yet people didn't lose their s**t over Daw getting off, they did with Pell because you are emotionally attached to the outcome.

I hate bringing Daw up but people have a lack of consistency between people they like or do not like.

 

[Snake_Baker]

You know there’s a simple solution to the police brutality.

No, there isn't mate. It goes much deeper than what you are claiming. It goes to the core of human nature, which in this instance is something that has been grossly perverted due to the selectivity of these "activists".

The solution to the police problem, is no police at all, but that's not anywhere near feasible whilst people ignore the bigger picture.

 

[B4Bear]

No, there isn't mate. It goes much deeper than what you are claiming. It goes to the core of human nature, which in this instance is something that has been grossly perverted due to the selectivity of these "activists".

The solution to the police problem, is no police at all, but that's not anywhere near feasible whilst people ignore the bigger picture.

Care to explain what you are actually trying to say?

 

[DesertRoo]

Care to explain what you are actually trying to say?

i believe hes talking about the Stanford prison experiment.
It’s where if you put prison guards and prisoners together, the prison guards will over step the mark every time. It’s a very interesting topic in psychology. Shame it breaks all sorts of ethics these days.

But it’s why shifting police from a authoritarian to a more caring role within the community is key.

 

[Tas]

You know there’s a simple solution to the police brutality.
if the cops over there shift focus from a security role into a social worker role. We would see a lot less crime/prisoners/intergenerational incarceration.
we’d also see a development in community and seismic shift in attitude towards police.

but look that’s just a crazy leftist idea that hasn’t worked anywhere else in the world....

Yeah, there are a lot of potential solutions but there are more than 700,000 full time officers in the USA and I read the average is about 3 years in the police in the USA so it has a very high churn rate which is why they haven't invested as much time training as other countries do.

You can say you will do this and you will do that, but when you can't get anyone to front up to being the punching bag then you are going to have problems implementing anything you think might be a solution. I do not think it is as easy an outcome as anyone believes it is and I think regardless what happens, you are likely going to have some bad actors in whatever group that is that large.

In 2018 there were 10.3 million arrests in the USA. Each arrest has the possibility of a situation becoming volatile, how many of these lead to police going over the top, what proportion results in an arse-kicking, what results in a death? What fraction of arrests do go bad? It would be a spectacularly low percentile and that is factoring perps frequently resist arrest. You want to avoid even 1 avoidable death but how realistic do people think it is going to be when the citizens are vastly more violent and aggressive than those of other countries you are comparing their police force to.

People want to just talk about the police but the problem is far more complicated than that.

 

[DesertRoo]

Yeah, there are a lot of potential solutions but there are more than 700,000 full time officers in the USA and I read the average is about 3 years in the police in the USA so it has a very high churn rate which is why they haven't invested as much time training as other countries do.

You can say you will do this and you will do that, but when you can't get anyone to front up to being the punching bag then you are going to have problems implementing anything you think might be a solution. I do not think it is as easy an outcome as anyone believes it is and I think regardless what happens, you are likely going to have some bad actors in whatever group that is that large.

In 2018 there were 10.3 million arrests in the USA. Each arrest has the possibility of a situation becoming volatile, how many of these lead to police going over the top, what proportion results in an arse-kicking, what results in a death? What fraction of arrests do go bad? It would be a spectacularly low percentile and that is factoring perps frequently resist arrest. You want to avoid even 1 avoidable death but how realistic do people think it is going to be when the citizens are vastly more violent and aggressive than those of other countries you are comparing their police force to.

People want to just talk about the police but the problem is far more complicated than that.

I know these are different countries with different histories but it’s worked in the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, all of Scandinavia.. and the list goes on and on

 

[B4Bear]

I know there different countries with different histories but it’s worked in the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada, all of Scandinavia.. and the list goes on and on

Totally different cultures.

All the places you mentioned have a stong community and civic bond.

The USA, not so much. A country that places a higher value on your right to open carry a weapon and lax gun laws over my right to safety does not give a s**t about community.

 

[Tas]

I know there different countries with different histories but it’s worked in the UK, Australia, NZ all of Scandinavia.. and the list goes on and on

Yeah, they can change to be more like other western countries, but right at this point in time, their culture is different enough that you can't compare. The violence level per capita is through the roof there, it is the kind of country that cuts you off unemployment benefits, doesn't have the same level of social security, doesn't have a state based health system. It is a land of great opportunity, but it is a land of extremes of poverty and wealth and if you slip through the cracks you are dumped on the street with the garbage. Mental health problems are an epidemic there. They have a lot of problems, we had similar problems but decades of reform address many of our problems. Police here in Victoria used to be known for shooting first, asking questions later.

We changed. Looking at the protests, I wasn't sure if I was watching the News or a Purge re-run. I think a lot of people have had good intentions about fixing things but if your foundations are rotten it doesn't matter how many coats of paint you put on the house, at some point you have to address the structural problems.

 

[sbdan]

The issues this poor child is going to have..............

View attachment 886476

LOL. That's such an awful thing to do to your daughter.

 

[DesertRoo]

Totally different cultures.

All the places you mentioned have a stong community and civic bond.

The USA, not so much. A country that places a higher value on your right to open carry a weapon and lax gun laws over my right to safety does not give a s**t about community.

But Canadians have similar gun laws, a lot of the Scandinavian countries did also, well up until Norway’s Breivik massacre. Australia too, NZ you could still buy automatic weapons up until recently.

But all of those countries also have some of the best safety nets for people in the world also. So maybe it’s that desperate people do desperate things?

Also Americans are very nationalistic people, who have massive military employment, I’d say they understand civic duty very well.

 

[DesertRoo]

Yeah, they can change to be more like other western countries, but right at this point in time, their culture is different enough that you can't compare. The violence level per capita is through the roof there, it is the kind of country that cuts you off unemployment benefits, doesn't have the same level of social security, doesn't have a state based health system. It is a land of great opportunity, but it is a land of extremes of poverty and wealth and if you slip through the cracks you are dumped on the street with the garbage. Mental health problems are an epidemic there. They have a lot of problems, we had similar problems but decades of reform address many of our problems. Police here in Victoria used to be known for shooting first, asking questions later.

We changed. Looking at the protests, I wasn't sure if I was watching the News or a Purge re-run. I think a lot of people have had good intentions about fixing things but if your foundations are rotten it doesn't matter how many coats of paint you put on the house, at some point you have to address the structural problems.

You mean all ‘em damn leftist policies that the yanks are a screaming about.. might actually help them??

That’s the biggest travesty in America if they actually had meaningful opposition that represents the people, they’d have created a better society.

 

[Tectonic]

Yeah, there are a lot of potential solutions but there are more than 700,000 full time officers in the USA and I read the average is about 3 years in the police in the USA so it has a very high churn rate which is why they haven't invested as much time training as other countries do.

Where did you read that? It's certainly not true.

Traumatic Stress in Police Officers

The objective of this book is to demonstrate how adopting a career perspective can provide a more comprehensive conceptualization of traumatic stress processes as they apply to police officers and agencies and provide a framework that can be used to guide research and intervention agenda in ways...

books.google.com.au

Still on Patrol After Two Decades, Valued but Rare (Published 2011)

Officer Peter J. Figoski, 47, who was killed on Monday, had been on the force for 22 years. A relative handful of police officers remain on patrol assignments in their 40s.

www.nytimes.com

Also, can I see a link to the antifa website please

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Also, can I see a link to the antifa website please

There won’t be a link. There isn’t a website. Only a bunch of obvious fakes that buzz around the RT/infowars/breidbart labyrinth.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Has any of them actually put in 2 seconds of thought, if they actually did? They’d be a massive power vacuum, filled by who?

No they haven’t because they don’t offer a political program. There is barely even a they.

There’s multiple interest groups, and labelling them antifa is just accepting institutional labelling by trump, police and the military state.