Play Nice Random Chat Thread V

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Mr_Nyah

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It was my bad as I was being a bit too general.


I wasn't going for the big red scare. More so about current CRT adapting some aspects of Marxist conflict theory, as well as other theoretical aspects. I didn't assert that Marx did have a monolopy and I have read a little of Hegel's works.

The Frankfurt school did expand on the original Marxist variation of conflict theory (who heavily altered it from Hegel as we both know):
The inevitable progress of History is achieved, for Hegel, by an alchemical process by means of the dialectic: thesis, antithesis, synthesis. This allows the Absolute to actualize itself, which ends History (i.e., an anti-Christian eschaton).

Marx took up this idea as "dialectical materialism," which is quite famously the (not very Christian) process of History becoming communist, a realized global Volk. The Frankfurt School arose to push the dialectical process beyond where Marx originally took it. It is this dialectical process that is presented in Kritische, as in Kritische Theorie, which gave rise to Kritische Rassentheorie, i.e., Critical Race Theory. Even the split between "Traditional Theory" and "Critical Theory" perfectly mirrors Hegel's "Understanding" and "Reason".

But I appreciate the fact that I do not fully comprehend the complete philosophical roots and associated literature. Still a work in progress. It is very complicated and time-consuming stuff.
This thread is one hundred times better with you back in it mate.
 

krakouers85

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It was my bad as I was being a bit too general.


I wasn't going for the big red scare. More so about current CRT adapting some aspects of Marxist conflict theory, as well as other theoretical aspects. I didn't assert that Marx did have a monolopy and I have read a little of Hegel's works.

The Frankfurt school did expand on the original Marxist variation of conflict theory (who heavily altered it from Hegel as we both know):
The inevitable progress of History is achieved, for Hegel, by an alchemical process by means of the dialectic: thesis, antithesis, synthesis. This allows the Absolute to actualize itself, which ends History (i.e., an anti-Christian eschaton).

Marx took up this idea as "dialectical materialism," which is quite famously the (not very Christian) process of History becoming communist, a realized global Volk. The Frankfurt School arose to push the dialectical process beyond where Marx originally took it. It is this dialectical process that is presented in Kritische, as in Kritische Theorie, which gave rise to Kritische Rassentheorie, i.e., Critical Race Theory. Even the split between "Traditional Theory" and "Critical Theory" perfectly mirrors Hegel's "Understanding" and "Reason".

But I appreciate the fact that I do not fully comprehend the complete philosophical roots and associated literature. Still a work in progress. It is very complicated and time-consuming stuff.
It does matter to me and has real effects on people's political decisions, because people are using this dialogue of misperceptions on both sides to make sure they hammer a nail in the coffin of their economic enemy from decades ago. As someone who interprets the world through an economic lens, I think education on this stuff matters.

The end result for the general public (not you fine people here, who seem to be able to discuss intelligently) is that you see things like unemployed Americans living in a trailer park, with no health insurance, obsessed with their conservative cultural war flavour of the day, screeching about being offered health care by a centre right politician because Carl Marks or something.
Somewhere, Karl Marx is shedding a tear in pride...
 

AnEmptyChair

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This thread is one hundred times better with you back in it mate.
Absolutely agree.

But sometimes I feel sorry for the mods though. Not only having to wade through the discussions in this thread when most of the topics probably bore them to tears, but especially when K4E, TMB and some others get onto the heavy theory stuff. If I was them I'd be permabanning for forcing me to go to dictionary.com to make sure dialectics isn't a technique used at Tender Touch.
 

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Flawed Genius

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Absolutely agree.

But sometimes I feel sorry for the mods though. Not only having to wade through the discussions in this thread when most of the topics probably bore them to tears, but especially when K4E, TMB and some others get onto the heavy theory stuff. If I was them I'd be permabanning for forcing me to go to dictionary.com to make sure dialectics isn't a technique used at Tender Touch.
[hurriedly shreds login details for both the Kangaroos4eva and Themanbun aliases] yeah dude, bores me to tears. Let's talk about chicks am I right?

Honestly I find that even skimming the longer posts teaches me something. I understand they're being written out in an attempt to facilitate genuine discussion so unless the guys are using the thesis-length posts to bury "TMB is a social outcast who smells of lint" or "K4E refuses to buy items for full price" insults in the middle somewhere, then it's play on for me

I do know the economic and CRT posts are causing KC to break out in hives which has gotten him some very weird looks at the Chaddy summits
 

Kangaroos4eva

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[hurriedly shreds login details for both the Kangaroos4eva and Themanbun aliases] yeah dude, bores me to tears. Let's talk about chicks am I right?

Honestly I find that even skimming the longer posts teaches me something. I understand they're being written out in an attempt to facilitate genuine discussion so unless the guys are using the thesis-length posts to bury "TMB is a social outcast who smells of lint" or "K4E refuses to buy items for full price" insults in the middle somewhere, then it's play on for me

I do know the economic and CRT posts are causing KC to break out in hives which has gotten him some very weird looks at the Chaddy summits
I do appreciate the latitude yourself and the other mods give us in this thread.
 

koshari

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Sorry about the delay. Ended up missing out on training anyway, due to this damn QLD (Syrian) weather.

A tipping point:
To establish a firm tipping point, I need to establish why I bother voting for a party that I have deep reservations about, including several of its key members/policies that I call the lesser evil. First and foremost, the Liberal Party has remained the closest party to my own political principles. My principles are closely aligned to Liberal Conservatism.

These views are generally centered on:
- Favouring free markets, but remaining an advocate of mixed market economics. My views on economics have drafted further left over the past 18 months, but I remain a firm believer in the growth provided by free markets, albeit with a safety net for those that fall down the proverbial ladder.
- A liberal stance on most social and ethical issues, including an utter rejection of identity politics in favour of promoting equal opportunity for all individuals and individual responsibility.
- For example: I voted yes on the gay marriage plebiscite and I support gay marriage, action on climate change, civil liberty protections (vary on issue-to-issue), justice reform, legalisation of most drugs, indigenous rights, science promotion, technology investments,native land rights and even early abortion rights for women (especially if it is the product of rape). This stance is in complete opposition to full social and national conservatism and detests any form of populism.
- Strongish law and order, but I tend to favor liberal and reformist views on prison and justice reform.
- Environmental conservatism and conservation.
- A balanced, but ultimately slighlty positive-leaning, view of history.
- Support of social institutions to support those in need, whilst also fostering civic loyalty to your community and nation. This includes pride in your own personal heritage and culture.
- Civic nationalism based on all citizens working together for the good of the state and promoting the national interests before international ones. Basically, favouring tempered realism over internationalism.
- Primordially, conservatism is a temperament—a proclivity that favors slow, judicious change for all individuals and looks for guidance to the future from the wisdom of the past.
- (1) Humans are flawed creatures; (2) Reason is powerful but limited and prone to error; (3) Utopian thinking is dangerous, especially when combined with ideologies that promote concentrated political power; (4) Humans should respect tradition and custom; and (5) Intuition is an important guide to social policy.

The Liberals fail on many of these metrics (being more social conservative nowadays), but fit the bill more than the other parties do.


Factor 2:
Because of my liberal-centric principles and views, in particular the focus on a form of liberal colour-blindness, I am entirely distrustful of an ideology (CRT) that is utterly obsessed with skin colour. A set of theories which has philosophical roots in Marxist conflict theory, labels an entire group of people racist for being born with a certain skin colour, is attached to equity of outcome, promotes forms of racial segregation and has prompted some on this board to label me racist for no good reason. But I have repeated these criticisms before with no avail. My views on confronting my biases and promoting anti-racism are closely aligned to Helen Pluckrose, a left-wing intellectual.


Factor 3:
I don't completely agree with your perception of the party.

Corruption:
Not to do a both-sides-ism, but corruption is not unique to the liberal party as the recent stacking and development scandals across both major parties has shown. The corruption would have reach the point of election fraud and deliberate voter suppression for me to reach a tipping point.

Rape Apology and Victim-blaming:
We have discussed this and my disgust at the party. However, as the recent ABC article showed, alongside the Greens scandal with Birmingham, the entire political class needs to be questioned on this one. As for a tipping point, it would have to reach extraordinary high levels by just the Liberals.

Environmental Destruction:
This is something all young liberal conservatives bemoan about the modern conservative parties in the west. It is one of my main gripes with Morrison. The recent inquiries into nuclear fusion, nuclear power and commitment to CC targets offer some hope on this front. The liberals approach is closer to a social conservative approach, which isn't quite liberal enough for me. The ALP is one of the better parties on this, whilst the Greens go a bit too quickly for sustainable and cheap clean energy. A tipping point would be complete non-action on environmental conservation and CC.

Human Rights Abuses:
Probably needed to be a tad more specific here. If we are discussing detention centres, then I am almost entirely opposed to them in their past and current form, which explains my Dutton dislike. Mind you, a hell of a lot more people died on those leaky boats than in detention, but I believe I had this discussion before with others on board. However, I'm not sure what you are after with this one beyond immigration and potentially media freedoms, so I'll leave this one alone.

Poverty:
Well, how long have you got? I would have to go through global economic trends for the past 100 or so years, as well as the entire economic platforms of all major governments since Federation, including the Free Trade Party, Protectionist Party, the Country Party and Joseph Lyons' United Australia Party. I generally support the level of social-democracy we have now, but I support an efficient system with a relatively healthy APS base, rather than private contractors. The tipping point would have to be a massive scaling back of APS personnel and the current social democratic systems that we possess today, including social welfare, Medicare, public health etc.

Cronyism:
Is a problem that plagues many parties. It would have to be beyond rife for me to question my voting patterns on this front. Middle Eastern clientelism levels really.

Overall:
A significant, albeit not a complete, tilt with the points I raised, weighed against my principles, would feature me altering my voting patterns towards the ALP.


As for your edit:
I am not that person, or at least I strive not to be. I don't want to stick it to anyone, including SLF. I cannot genuinely hold a grudge against anyone for longer than a day*. Even when I moan about CRT, I understand why people support it and there are many legitimate grievances to be addressed collaboratively. I just believe there are better alternatives and more pragmatic (non-partisan) solutions to many of the problems that we discuss every day on here.

*essendon supporters don't count as they* aren't human...
I hope that answers your questions in some way. I apologise about the length, but I thought I owed people an explanation for the way I post on this board. All the best.
Wow, pretty detailed and well layed out post to appear in a "random chat" thread. 100 monkeys on 100 typewriters would take a millennium to produce this randomly. ;-)
 

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B4Bear

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John Howard calls for religious schools to have anti-discrimination exemption | John Howard | The Guardian

This campaigner just won't go away.

My belief is that if your organisation (school or otherwise) uses public monies then you don't get to be a discriminator against anyone. Just because you are a religious organisation doesn't mean your rules over rule the secular law of the land.

You want to be a campaigner, do it on your own coin, not mine.

Edit:

Howard also lamented recent laws passed by the Victorian government banning gay conversion practices in the state, calling on those concerned by the laws to protest Victorian politicians.

Seriously. Old campaigner has gone senile.
 
Last edited:

Snake_Baker

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John Howard calls for religious schools to have anti-discrimination exemption | John Howard | The Guardian

This campaigner just won't go away.

My belief is that if your organisation (school or otherwise) uses public monies then you don't get to be a discriminator against anyone. Just because you are a religious organisation doesn't mean your rules over rule the secular law of the land.

You want to be a campaigner, do it on your own coin, not mine.

Edit:

Howard also lamented recent laws passed by the Victorian government banning gay conversion practices in the state, calling on those concerned by the laws to protest Victorian politicians.

Seriously. Old campaigner has gone senile.

Isn't he a christian?
 

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