Play Nice Random Chat Thread VI

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Swallow_Wood

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For sure. A lot of the stuff gets flavoured one way nowadays, or maybe it always has and I haven’t notice. I literally can’t find an unemotionally motivated unbiased doco on it.

I have this strange optimism that post COVID a lot of good things are going to happen. What comes next in your opinion?
Well i can't help but be utterly pessimistic about what goes on inside and then comes out of Afghanistan. If we get a new wave of targeted attacked on western targets, specifically in the US, then i think a justification narrative for renewed and increased bombing will emerge. The Taliban will do whatever they want to do and are now more than ever sure of their cause and full of hubris.
 

Val Keating

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Well i can't help but be utterly pessimistic about what goes on inside and then comes out of Afghanistan. If we get a new wave of targeted attacked on western targets, specifically in the US, then i think a justification narrative for renewed and increased bombing will emerge. The Taliban will do whatever they want to do and are now more than ever sure of their cause and full of hubris.
I hope that after generations of war and destruction they would want peace, but you’re probably right and it won’t take much prodding to kick off again.
 

Swallow_Wood

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I hope that after generations of war and destruction they would want peace, but you’re probably right and it won’t take much prodding to kick off again.
Unfortunately there is a whole generation of men in the middle east who have known nothing but war and death at the hands of the US and their allies who can now be mined like bitcoin. And Afghanistan is the perfect place to train them.
 

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Val Keating

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Unfortunately there is a whole generation of men in the middle east who have known nothing but war and death at the hands of the US and their allies who can now be mined like bitcoin. And Afghanistan is the perfect place to train them.
It’s bloody sad. They’ll never fight the west on their soil and it’ll only continue pain. Let’s hope we’re underestimating them.
 

ferball

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That other building that dropped like a house of cards that wasn't hit by a plane looked pretty suspect, I remember some time afterwards there was a campaign by engineers who said a building like that shouldn't collapse like that to a regular fire.
That was building 7 of the WTC complex. If you saw it from the other side there was a humungous hole where a huge chunk of one of the towers fell thru it and basically destroyed its insides. But from the other side it looked solid and unlikely to fall.

Perspective is everything...
 

ferball

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At the time it was the only steel skyscraper to ever collapse due to a fire, not sure if any happened since but i don't remember of any. Some had to be demolished due to a fire but they were still standing. I think industrial steel needs to be heated to at least 600 degrees celsius to undergo metallurgical change and loses half it's strength, it needs about 1500 to lose structural integrity. A building fire is typically around 750 and it is not usually a uniform type of fire, it tends to be hotter in some places so they don't normally drop like a house of cards.

My nephew is an engineer working in construction, I should hit him up about some of the specifics.

I know the building standards changed post 9/11 to make them safer, but I don't think there was anything there to stop a building collapsing to a normal building fire. I am not sure if it is a conspiracy theory or not, but I think the explanation of a normal fire seems a bit odd, if a steel skyscraper could drop like that to a normal fire in 7 hours then I think something radical would need to change about building construction.

It was either poorly constructed or something else abnormal happened.
LOL. What was fu**en abnormal was the plane caused the top 20 stories of the first building to seperate from the rest and eventually collapse down on top of it. You can see it in the video.

The structure of the building is such that losing half its strength would cause it to collapse anyway but if you watch carefully you can see the top section start to teeter then fall thru the rest of the building. The WTC towers were built around a steel core that had each floor connected to it with the support radiating out from that core. I don't think there was any structural support apart from the core and when it was weakened there was nothing left to hold the building up. And i think that was a unique aspect about its structure or design. Check it out for yourself. I couldn't be arsed. I know a bit too much about it all anyway.
 

Tas

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LOL. What was fu**en abnormal was the plane caused the top 20 stories of the first building to seperate from the rest and eventually collapse down on top of it. You can see it in the video.

The structure of the building is such that losing half its strength would cause it to collapse anyway but if you watch carefully you can see the top section start to teeter then fall thru the rest of the building. The WTC towers were built around a steel core that had each floor connected to it with the support radiating out from that core. I don't think there was any structural support apart from the core and when it was weakened there was nothing left to hold the building up. And i think that was a unique aspect about its structure or design. Check it out for yourself. I couldn't be arsed. I know a bit too much about it all anyway.
Both WTC 1 and 2 pancaked, the bulk of the debris came down vertically, some fire/debris hit the southwest section but as the official final report said, it had ignited fires on floors 7-9, 11 and 13. If is a 47 story building, what they are describing is a splash effect from WTC which broke the glass and started fires. The official cause of the collapse was the sprinkler systems not working due to some other unrelated pipe accident. But some buildings have pretty much burnt out with the structure skeleton still intact. This building had all of the support columns in the middle of the building all apparently go and then the outer part of the building just pancaked because it didn't have enough support.

The official cause of the building collapse is office fire due to failed sprinklers, not because any significant amount of debris hit the building.

I don't believe in the conspiracies, I think it is more likely that it was poorly constructed. If it was built properly and the events happened as they described in the official report, it may very well had burnt out but it should still have remained standing. It is the first ever steel skyscraper to collapse to a fire.

The official final report: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861610
 

ferball

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Both WTC 1 and 2 pancaked, the bulk of the debris came down vertically, some fire/debris hit the southwest section but as the official final report said, it had ignited fires on floors 7-9, 11 and 13. If is a 47 story building, what they are describing is a splash effect from WTC which broke the glass and started fires. The official cause of the collapse was the sprinkler systems not working due to some other unrelated pipe accident. But some buildings have pretty much burnt out with the structure skeleton still intact. This building had all of the support columns in the middle of the building all apparently go and then the outer part of the building just pancaked because it didn't have enough support.

The official cause of the building collapse is office fire due to failed sprinklers, not because any significant amount of debris hit the building.

I don't believe in the conspiracies, I think it is more likely that it was poorly constructed. If it was built properly and the events happened as they described in the official report, it may very well had burnt out but it should still have remained standing. It is the first ever steel skyscraper to collapse to a fire.

The official final report: https://tsapps.nist.gov/publication/get_pdf.cfm?pub_id=861610
Firstly the NIST report has heaps of flaws in it. It probably isn't worth wasting time on, secondly ... which building are you talking about?

At least 3 collapsed that day.

Thirdly ... I don't believe in the conspiracies

LOL

The official explanation of the 9/11 attacks is they happened as a result of a conspiracy - between Bin Laden and Atta with his cell that hijacked then crashed the planes. Do you believe in that?
 

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ferball

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Tbh I’m not going to read something called fu** 9/11.
Fair enough.

Its one of the smartest articles on the whole subject but the guy who wrote it obviously scrubbed it from the net (for similar reasons you don't want to read it probably )and that's why its only on the way back machine. Its an article from 2007 anyway so its all ancient history.

I'm tempted to post the most salient points from it because they are still relevant.

The thing I find most fascinating about it was a bit weirder. Its like culturally all of us well alot of people had premonitions about what would happen. i had dreams about it as a kid, footage I saw of people running froim the collapse made me flash back. A friend who came to my house to quit heroin and had a psychotic episode, while her twin sister was in NYC. This was at the start of 1999. So a year and a half before it happened and she was spinning out at her sister being trapped there while buildings were collapsing and ww3 was starting. She was obviously delusional until 20 months or so later when we all saw what she was talking about. Obviously none of that did anything for her state of mind when the attack happened. She died a couple of months ago, RIP Sophie.

Planes flying into the towers and collapses etc turn up in comics and other art all over the place. I did a survey of people i knew and about half talked about dreaming of planes or building collapsing or unusual dreams of war in the lead up to the attacks. I came across a thing called the Global Consciousness Project, hosted at Princeton in the US - it claims to have evidence of a change in ... something around the actual attack itself.

This was the cover for a record that was released in July or in mid Sept, can't remember which, by a band called The Coup, radical hip hop musos.




Keep in mind they did this before the attacks and changed the cover afterwards. The tuner he is pressing to blow up the wtc has the words "Covert Action Labs" on it iirc. (Can't read it on that image.) The Sydney band Gerling had a record due for release in Sept 2001. It was called When Young Terrorists Chase the Sun. Heaps more of that sh*t if you can bothered chasing it up.

Genuinely weird, and if my friend hadn't lost the plot and had what seemed to be a real premonition of the event i would never have bothered following this up. I haven't really thought about any of this for over a decade... fu** it was a weird time. So many real coincidences around that day.

Speaking of which I had another friend - Jeff, old school 9/11 truther - ended up publishing an article called The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11. Its very interesting tho nearly 20 years old now and I'm not sure how accurate all the info is. But most of it is legit.

You can read it here.

(Jeff is spinning out about COVID these days. Doesn't want a COVID vaccine even tho he has flu shots every year. I dunno if the term "anti vaxxer" and all its associated prejudice should apply to people like that. Bagging them out certainly doesn't solve the lack of uptake by those people.)
 

Tas

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Firstly the NIST report has heaps of flaws in it. It probably isn't worth wasting time on, secondly ... which building are you talking about?
Oh, hang on...

1631497570499.png



Okay, I am ready.


At least 3 collapsed that day.
WTC 7, that was what we were talking about...

Thirdly ... I don't believe in the conspiracies

LOL

The official explanation of the 9/11 attacks is they happened as a result of a conspiracy - between Bin Laden and Atta with his cell that hijacked then crashed the planes. Do you believe in that?
The word has a number of meanings, in general when we refer to a conspiracy in the context of 9/11 we are referring to the "hypothetical speculation that is untrue or outlandish" definition.

Like people covering up stealing gold by blowing up the support structures to cover up a heist or sh*t like that.

The point of our entire conversation was that I wasn't happy with the explanation of how "an office fire" caused this building to collapse in the manner it did given it wasn't hit by an airplane full of jet fuel like the other two.

Like if an airplane falls out of the sky due to something it was designed not to do, it would result in a change of manufacturing standards of how they were constructed. Buildings like this are designed not to fall over in a fire. It was the only steel building to fall over due to an office fire. The other two had a significant amount of jet fuel which explained why the fire burned hot enough cause the collapse.

It obviously wasn't impacted significantly from falling debris as you suggested earlier, otherwise there would have been extensive damage to the upper floors, the report claims only a few floors were hit on the south west side which started the fire.

The guy who designed the WTC was the same guy who had to refit the Citicorp building, that was a famous engineering case where someone had botched the calculations and no other engineer double checked the calculations and that building could have collapsed if it was hit by a strong enough wind from a particular direction. It was picked up by a structural engineering student who was doing some kind of paper and picked that building to do it on, was given a copy of the blueprints and calculations and she double checked them and found a problem.

So it is not always, or ever, a conspiracy to explain why sh*t goes wrong. It is most likely human error either in design or construction. The Citiicorp building was meant to have welded joints but someone decided to cheapen it with bolted joints, which aren't as strong, and their math sucked to justify the decision to change the design.

Some engineers believe there was an underlying problem which wasn't uncovered in the hasty WTC investigation to explain why the building failed in the manner it did. Because they are designed not to.
 

ferball

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WTC 7, that was what we were talking about...

The point of our entire conversation was that I wasn't happy with the explanation of how "an office fire" caused this building to collapse in the manner it did given it wasn't hit by an airplane full of jet fuel like the other two.
Maybe you should reread the entire report and see if there is more to it. I've seen a photo of the back end of the building and it was f’ed. It may have only been the bottom 20 floors where the debris hit or in the middle... I don't remember and don't care enough to go looking. Either way after seeing that photo I'm not in the least surprised the building collapsed like a house of cards. You can think what you like about it. I really don't care.

The word has a number of meanings, in general when we refer to a conspiracy in the context of 9/11 we are referring to the "hypothetical speculation that is untrue or outlandish" definition.

Like people covering up stealing gold by blowing up the support structures to cover up a heist or sh*t like that.
So even tho it was a successful conspiracy that fundamentally changed the world (but shouldn't have been given how many people knew about it,) when you and whoever else you are referring to with that "we" (not me cos I'm not brainwashed lol. Must be that hat,) refer to a conspiracy in the context of 9/11 you think about stuff that is either batshit insane, or that you vaguely know a little about but stuff the details up (covering up stealing gold ... lol wasn't that a movie?).

Instead of the actual conspiracy that happened.

(And the surrounding events. Which all the outlandish conspiracy theories provide great cover for.)

No doubt you think other people are brainwashed.
 

Tas

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Maybe you should reread the entire report and see if there is more to it.
If it was just something I didn't understand that is fine, but there are structural engineers who are saying it shouldn't have gone down like that. I don't have an issue if all buildings are expected to collapse under those circumstances, but it was the only one that collapsed due to a fire so I just think it is odd. That is all, no tinfoil hattery. Buildings are designed to not fall down, even if they go into an inferno. The two that were hit by planes had enough fuel to explain why the structure lost structural integrity. There had to be something more to WTC 7, be it design flaw or construction flaw to explain why it collapsed and that wasn't touched on. Yeah, the fire system was sh*t but that is irrelevant, they are meant to continue standing even in an inferno.

I've seen a photo of the back end of the building and it was f’ed. It may have only been the bottom 20 floors where the debris hit or in the middle... I don't remember and don't care enough to go looking. Either way after seeing that photo I'm not in the least surprised the building collapsed like a house of cards. You can think what you like about it. I really don't care.
Yeah, it got f’ed up on the outside, but all the support structure is largely in the middle of the building, these buildings are designed to survive earthquakes, hurricanes and the like which put a tremendous amount of stress on the structure, they are designed to not go down in a fire so they don't trigger a domino effect. There are also photos of nearby buildings that were hit by the collapse of WTC 7, like Fireman Hall, it was completely f’ed up on the side it was hit. It didn't go down though. It was eventually demolished and rebuilt.

So even tho it was a successful conspiracy that fundamentally changed the world (but shouldn't have been given how many people knew about it,) when you and whoever else you are referring to with that "we" (not me cos I'm not brainwashed lol. Must be that hat,) refer to a conspiracy in the context of 9/11 you think about stuff that is either batshit insane, or that you vaguely know a little about but stuff the details up (covering up stealing gold ... lol wasn't that a movie?).

Instead of the actual conspiracy that happened.

(And the surrounding events. Which all the outlandish conspiracy theories provide great cover for.)

No doubt you think other people are brainwashed.
Wut?
 

Liam Boy

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Here's something strange I heard about recently. A show called "The Lone Gunmen" which aired its pilot episode in march 2001, with a plot involving a plan by rogue U.S. government agents to hijack planes and crash them into the world trade centre, make it look like a terrorist group was responsible, and then use the resulting fervor to launch a new war.

 

koshari

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I hope that after generations of war and destruction they would want peace, but you’re probably right and it won’t take much prodding to kick off again.
personally i dont think afghanis are one of the same, your looking at a very remote country on the crossroads of a radically different countries consisting of very different topography. add to this many of different groups living within it ( Of the 31 million or so Afghan residents, 42% are Pashtun, 27% Tajik, 9% Hazara, 9% Uzbek, 4% Aimak, 3% Turkmen, 2% Baloch and 4% fall into an unspecified "other" group. ) . sure you may have some kind of governance in the bigger cities such as kabul but out in the regions iam sure its local rules and customs that dominate.
 

Val Keating

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personally i dont think afghanis are one of the same, your looking at a very remote country on the crossroads of a radically different countries consisting of very different topography. add to this many of different groups living within it ( Of the 31 million or so Afghan residents, 42% are Pashtun, 27% Tajik, 9% Hazara, 9% Uzbek, 4% Aimak, 3% Turkmen, 2% Baloch and 4% fall into an unspecified "other" group. ) . sure you may have some kind of governance in the bigger cities such as kabul but out in the regions iam sure its local rules and customs that dominate.
Of course. Hopefully they get back to some peaceful way of life.
 

ferball

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Here's something strange I heard about recently. A show called "The Lone Gunmen" which aired its pilot episode in march 2001, with a plot involving a plan by rogue U.S. government agents to hijack planes and crash them into the world trade centre, make it look like a terrorist group was responsible, and then use the resulting fervor to launch a new war.

That was one of the many times the idea has kind of surfaced in pop culture.

Alot of people think it was some sort of warning or something... I dunno what excatly. Same with Die Hard 17 or whatever it is that Tas was referring to with his heist conspiracy. There is a video with an hour of these references. While alot are dubious or ludicrous there are enough eerie ones to make it a bit creepy, including the one with Prince at a concert in Holland in 1998 singing about Osama bringing it to the US in 2001. (I presume it wasn't faked but who knows.) And a whole bunch of f’ed up ads that were released in the month or two beforehand.
 

ferball

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Yeah exactly.

Why when you think of 9/11 and conspiracies do you not think of the obvious one - the Al Queda one that resulted in the attacks?

There is an association in your mind between 9/11 and all sorts of crazy conspiracies most of which are outright bullshit, not the obvious, true one. I find that interesting.
 

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