Play Nice Random Chat Thread VI

[Val Keating]

I like socialism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by socialist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

 

[DesertRoo]

I like socialism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by socialist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

All the systems should work together, as a society we need balance.. I’m all for free health and education.
I’m even for utilities to become state owned again..
but people also need personal freedom to do what they want. At some point we need to put on the big boy pants too.

 

[Del191229]

I like socialism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by socialist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

I like capitalism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by capitalist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

 

[Del191229]

All the systems should work together, as a society we need balance.. I’m all for free health and education.
I’m even for utilities to become state owned again..
but people also need personal freedom to do what they want. At some point we need to put on the big boy pants too.

Yeah, this.

 

[Val Keating]

I like capitalism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by capitalist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

Lol. Knew that was coming. Maybe it has more to do with the time period that socialism took over then the motives of the people that implemented it. Is anyone doing it well now? I know capitalism isn’t perfect but it does seem to come with more freedom. Think DesertRoo is right that a good balance is ideal. Something in the middle would be perfect. Bezos just became the richest (known) person ever while people can’t get health care, that’s pretty messed up.

 

[Del191229]

Lol. Knew that was coming. Maybe it has more to do with the time period that socialism took over then the motives of the people that implemented it. Is anyone doing it well now? I know capitalism isn’t perfect but it does seem to come with more freedom. Think DesertRoo is right that a good balance is ideal. Something in the middle would be perfect. Bezos just became the richest (known) person ever while people can’t get health care, that’s pretty messed up.

Yeah, I was being a bit glib.

The idea of freedoms is interesting. Socialists and communists would argue that capitalism only provides the freedom to enslave yourself to buy food/shelter etc.

I reckon all three of us, with DR, pretty much agree

 

[DesertRoo]

Yeah, this.

If the Morrison government was smart, they’d map out a plan for all those engineers, those cheap uni courses are going to produce..

And like I’ve said the abc is a dole programme for creatives realise the next big innovation is the hydrogen economy, forget big lithium battery cars.. compressed hydrogen should be moving ships/trucks/cars within ten years..
State fund dat shit.. because without changing our way of life, we’d be net zero with a massive industry...

 

[AnEmptyChair]

Lol. Knew that was coming. Maybe it has more to do with the time period that socialism took over then the motives of the people that implemented it. Is anyone doing it well now? I know capitalism isn’t perfect but it does seem to come with more freedom. Think DesertRoo is right that a good balance is ideal. Something in the middle would be perfect. Bezos just became the richest (known) person ever while people can’t get health care, that’s pretty messed up.

No one's doing it well now because every time a legitimate government in any given part of the world has attempted to implement a wide-scale policy based on socialism, the CIA, at the behest of private enterprise, has undermined them and sought to install capitalist friendly regimes, no matter how authoritarian or brutal.

 

[Val Keating]

No one's doing it well now because every time a legitimate government in any given part of the world has attempted to implement a wide-scale policy based on socialism, the CIA, at the behest of private enterprise, has undermined them and sought to install capitalist friendly regimes, no matter how authoritarian or brutal.

True. Is there no one doing better then capitalist countries?

 

[Hojuman]

Avid art lover and did " lmpressionist's " today at the NGV. Not really my cup of tea but 10/10 $30 well spent.

 

[Themanbun]

True. Is there no one doing better then capitalist countries?

Bolivia shits all over a bunch of its neighbours. I also would rather to have been in the post WW2 eastern bloc, warts and all, than the West during the same period of development.

It's important to remember as others have said that socialist regimes now generally:

(1) start in countries with a far lesser development.
(2) face sanctions from the most powerful economies in the world almost instantly.
(3) have to spend big on military to keep the wolves at bay (which is and was a major, major issue in terms of trying to increase personal living standards).
(4) suffer a brain and resources drain without clamping down on emigration.

This is why a lot of earlier socialist theorists predicted that it would evolve naturally out of the developed world. Russia and Latin America would have surprised Marx.

Even then if it weren't for the massive forced redistribution of wealth in Europe by the EU after it became clear that central and eastern European capitalist venture in the 1990s was doomed to fail, you'd rather have grown up with the dictators and all than in that hellscape. Hell, there's still a post of 'ostalgia' kicking around even with that redistribution


I think part of the main issue is that people often compare some Latin American emerging socialist nation to the peak of Western living and go "yeah that's shit".

You've got to compare like for like.

 

[Val Keating]

Bolivia shits all over a bunch of its neighbours. I also would rather to have been in the post WW2 eastern bloc, warts and all, than the West during the same period of development.

It's important to remember as others have said that socialist regimes now generally:

(1) start in countries with a far lesser development.
(2) face sanctions from the most powerful economies in the world almost instantly.
(3) have to spend big on military to keep the wolves at bay (which is and was a major, major issue in terms of trying to increase personal living standards).
(4) suffer a brain and resources drain without clamping down on emigration.

This is why a lot of earlier socialist theorists predicted that it would evolve naturally out of the developed world. Russia and Latin America would have surprised Marx.

Even then if it weren't for the massive forced redistribution of wealth in Europe by the EU after it became clear that central and eastern European capitalist venture in the 1990s was doomed to fail, you'd rather have grown up with the dictators and all than in that hellscape. Hell, there's still a post of 'ostalgia' kicking around even with that redistribution


I think part of the main issue is that people often compare some Latin American emerging socialist nation to the peak of Western living and go "yeah that's sh*t".

You've got to compare like for like.

Don’t agree with “would rather to have been in the post WW2 eastern bloc, warts and all, than the West during the same period of development” at all. Starlin unleashed hell after ww2. Truely horrific. The number of people killed by him and his party would have made Hitler blush.

 

[Themanbun]

Don’t agree with “would rather to have been in the post WW2 eastern bloc, warts and all, than the West during the same period of development” at all. Starlin unleashed hell after ww2. Truely horrific. The number of people killed by him and his party would have made Hitler blush.

Got relatives who lived that reality and spent several years after 1945 in a Soviet camp.

Also got many a relative in my family tree who perished at the hands of the Cromwell and the famine in Ireland during western Europe's industrialisation.

So let's just say agree to disagree on that particular point and perhaps you can consider the rest of my post without jumping straight to the worst atrocity you can think of across dozens of countries and decades of history?

I'm not saying it is or was all roses for these people mate. Some awful shit happened and is unforgiveable. I have noticed however that you have a tendency to fixate on the worst parts of socialist regimes while somewhat disregarding similar atrocities that happened under capitalist systems the world over. Which is okay - it's your prerogative either way. As I've said before history books, especially in this part of the world, are always going to place a heavy emphasis on the foreign atrocity rather than the normal lives that most people lived. And, IMO for the average, non-political person, life was much better in that part of the world post WW2 than it was under the preceding regime(s) (where being political could also have got you killed).*

But, on a continuum of possible ruling arrangements for this type of economic system, much like our own economic system, there is a continuum that probably begins with blokes like Stalin on one end and complete absence of government on the other. While relevant, there's no need to fixate on either example when there's a bunch in between we can look to.

*Please in no way take this as apologetics

 

[Val Keating]

Got relatives who lived that reality and spent several years after 1945 in a Soviet camp. Also got many a relative in my family tree who perished at the hands of the Cromwell and the famine in Ireland during western Europe's industrialisation.

So let's just say agree to disagree on that particular point and perhaps you can consider the rest of my post without jumping straight to the worst atrocity you can think of across dozens of countries and decades of history?

I'm not saying it is or was all roses for these people mate. Some awful sh*t happened and is unforgiveable. I have noticed however that you have a tendency to fixate on the worst parts of socialism while somewhat disregarding similar or worse atrocities that happened under capitalist systems the world over. Which is okay - it's your prerogative either way. As I've said before history books, especially in this part of the world, are always going to place a heavy emphasis on the foreign atrocity rather than the normal lives that most people lived.

I go to where the worst happened because it’s always good at the top no matter where you look…and I expect that I’d have been on the poorer side so I can relate more. I’m of Irish heritage as well, my nan was put in an orphanage by her mother after she migrated here. Irish and some Polish apparently.

I judge all nations on how they treat the people they deemed undesirable. So when I think of ‘the West’ I think the US, Australia, Britain, Canada etc.. and while they all did terrible shit I don’t read stories of farmers deliberately starved to death while their made to give up their cops and far, far worse stuff that I won’t go into but you would probably know about.

Anyway I was just wondering if there’s a country where they’re outperforming capitalism, where the poor people have food, shelter and freedom. I was thinking Denmark would be close but that’s just a guess, I’m not 100% on their political set up.

 

[Themanbun]

I go to where the worst happened because it’s always good at the top no matter where you look…and I expect that I’d have been on the poorer side so I can relate more. I’m of Irish heritage as well, my nan was put in an orphanage by her mother after she migrated here. Irish and some Polish apparently.

I judge all nations on how they treat the people they deemed undesirable. So when I think of ‘the West’ I think the US, Australia, Britain, Canada etc.. and while they all did terrible sh*t I don’t read stories of farmers deliberately starved to death while their made to give up their cops and far, far worse stuff that I won’t go into but you would probably know about.

Anyway I was just wondering if there’s a country where they’re outperforming capitalism, where the poor people have food, shelter and freedom. I was thinking Denmark would be close but that’s just a guess, I’m not 100% on their political set up.

Well three of those countries you mentioned virtually extinguished entire populations of indigenous people...

But yeah, the Nordic countries are the 'go-to' and you can even look go Australia's 1940s and 1950s history if you want a look at social market economics. Probably very little difference in terms of economic policy alone between some of our Labor leaders in decades gone by and say Venezuela now. Only recently did the ALP take democratic socialism (distinct from social democracy) out of its constitution.

But all of those Nordic countries are kind of 'halfway houses' between ideological socialism and a market economy. They are more Bernstein than Marx. Although you could mount a strong argument that in terms of economic policy alone that Venezuela is also an economic halfway house. Their successes in the early years were trumpeted by American media as owing to the heavy privatization loading they have in their 'socialist' nation...then when their fortunes slipped the narrative became that they are the archetype of pure socialism.

Anyway, comparing like for like, Bolivia is faring well against its neighbours. The Nordic countries, although as above I don't really count them, also shit all over almost every country in the world for living standards.

 

[koshari]

I like socialism as an idea but so many atrocities have been committed by socialist powers on the people they rule that it’s hard to not see it going sideways.

Its people that ate the problem rather than the political model.

 

[Val Keating]

Its people that ate the problem rather than the political model.

Yeah I think that has merit. I’m reminded of the saying “absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

 

[DesertRoo]

‘Generation Left’ will soon become ‘Population Left’ - report

The views of “Generation Left” are “a preview of what will be the mainstream opinion in Britain tomorrow.”

www.thelondoneconomic.com

interesting piece about generational change in england.. sharply shifting left towards socialism.

 

[Del191229]

‘Generation Left’ will soon become ‘Population Left’ - report

The views of “Generation Left” are “a preview of what will be the mainstream opinion in Britain tomorrow.”

www.thelondoneconomic.com

interesting piece about generational change in england.. sharply shifting left towards socialism.

Say you were 16 (when most people become roughly aware of politics and the world, how money works, need to earn it etc) in 2007.

You're 31 now.

You've lived through two enormous recessions that are in reality depressions for most. You've watched an alliance of old people and crooks rip away your links to Europe, despite having grown up as a European, on a combination of capitalist/racist grounds.

Why wouldn't they?

 

[Del191229]

Look at these crooks. They want taxpayers to fund their R+D, so they can sell the resulting products back to taxpayers at a huge mark up.

https://www.aspi.org.au/report/australian-darpa-turbocharge-universities-national-security-research-securely-managed

 

[AnEmptyChair]

‘Generation Left’ will soon become ‘Population Left’ - report

The views of “Generation Left” are “a preview of what will be the mainstream opinion in Britain tomorrow.”

www.thelondoneconomic.com

interesting piece about generational change in england.. sharply shifting left towards socialism.

Hasn't been the case in every generation? When they're young they're overwhelmingly progressive, but as they get older and start making their own money and have children, they get increasingly self-interested, even selfish, and want to protect what they have from perceived threats, real or fabricated?

 

[DesertRoo]

Hasn't been the case in every generation? When they're young they're overwhelmingly progressive, but as they get older and start making their own money and have children, they get increasingly self-interested, even selfish, and want to protect what they have from perceived threats, real or fabricated?

I believe the present theory is none of these young adults have the ability to buy houses, walking out of uni with debt etc, as that’s happening, they’re holding onto believes much much longer or if ever..

 

[Kangaroos4eva]

Did you hear Biden put out a memo to law enforcement saying they’re planning on putting policing back to the level of prepandemic levels, looks like a massive increase in funding too..

Its almost like the defund police movement was full of it..

Kind of. I always felt it was used as an excuse, at the city level, to cut back public spending during COVID restrictions, but then crime went up again and locals began pushing for greater law enforcement, so they largely reversed the cuts.

Federal level, it was always a factional issue and not broadly popular amongst the Pelosi/Biden types.

 

[DesertRoo]

Kind of. I always felt it was used as an excuse, at the city level, to cut back public spending during COVID restrictions, but then crime went up again and locals began pushing for greater law enforcement, so they largely reversed the cuts.

Federal level, it was always a factional issue and not broadly popular amongst the Pelosi/Biden types.

??
the defunding happened around George Floyd riots, not covid, trump received every police union support because Harris/Biden supported the policy at the time..
It was almost like ngos and policy makers used the unrest to create a larger problem.. when covid hit.

Black is the new orange isn’t just a comedy show.

 

[Del191229]

I believe the present theory is none of these young adults have the ability to buy houses, walking out of uni with debt etc, as that’s happening, they’re holding onto believes much much longer or if ever..

Yep, capitalism eating away its own foundations.