Play Nice Random Chat Thread VI

[ferball]

Geez, Ferbs, you must have loved C and C Music Factory: there’s a lot of things that make you go “hmmm…”.

QAnon – cabals of elite child abusers – Epstein & Maxwell – hmmm.

The Daily Grail says QAnon is planning for a putsch – capital riots – hmmm.

Some stuff about Satanists – hmmm.

There’s got to be more than “hmm”. “Hmm” is just shorthand for “join the dots”, which itself is usually a way of saying “I see a coincidence, but I don’t have any evidence to make an actual connection. I cannot join the dots except through implication”.

The Daily Grail author themself says “Okay, I’m going a bit over the top. This is all very unlikely to be true…I’m free associating between a lot of crazy ideas. I’m just saying though, if QAnoners want to believe in a narrative based on fairly flimsy evidence and a network of random connections, mine is probably more likely than a lying narcissistic man-baby being selected to save the world from an evil cabal of Satanic paedophiles”.

The bloke who wrote From PsyOp to Mindwar with Micheal Aquino and who has spent the last 20 years doing everything he can to promote ****ed up "conservative"/neo lib and neo con policies is on fox spruiking Qanon to a bunch of people without the critical thinking skills to see thru it, using the techniques he developed throughout his career in the US military as a psychological warfare expert and eventually there is a half arsed putsch niot unlike the farce in Munich on the 20s.

I'd never seen that Daily grail article before today actually but I'd have thought the conclusion he's too scared to really own is ****en obvious to anyone with half a brain.

What if there is a secret, far-right group consisting of an association of white supremacists, Nazis, mobbed up millionaires, and generally fascist-leaning RWNJs – and QAnon is a psy-op they created to build an army of useful idiots, who would help spread their message so that eventually a large portion of the population would be compliant when the American putsch goes down?

The only part of that comment that isn't a reasonable conclusion is bolded. Its not even particularly secret.

Interestingly, I find the conclusion of the Salon article you linked entirely plausible. There is no link between the Epstein case and the QAnon fiction. QAnon is a fantasy that was designed simply as propaganda to mobilise support for Donald Trump.

There doesn't have to be an actual link for it to be assumed in the minds of the target audience. You're wrong about the bold bit tho. Trump is almost incidental to it. Like I said upthread and earlier in this comment, the daily grail writer got it right tho he probably doesn't want to face the implications of his comment. Its designed to build an army of useful idiots to aid in a far right uprising. Trump's a useful stepping stone along the way but this stuff is neither new or unique to Trump. And QAnon is just the latest iteration of CFR/Trilateral Commission run the world conspiracy theories. Guess who was a member of both groups. LOL.

There are two things I want to make clear when I say we should focus on survivors (I heard Grace Tame and Brittney Higgins use that term the other day, so I presume it is preferable to “victim” which I previously used). Firstly, I am not suggesting that we need to identify what survivors “did wrong” to become victims of abuse. I am suggesting we consider how society has failed them, and what we can learn from their experiences. Secondly, I am not suggesting that we ignore the role of perpetrators, including pursuing and prosecuting them. But an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Survivors is a better term and I should have used it, I normally do when I'm talking about this shit. I know quite a few. Some who were accused of being conspiracy theorists when they tried to tell their stories. Others who have been thru ****en horrific, mind boggling things, just want to be left along. Some just dealt with ordinary sleazy creeps. And things in between.

I absolutely acknowledge that you have identified that we should provide support to survivors and allow their voices to be heard. But we have to be careful about an attitude that we should just let them get on with their lives. Of course we do not want to re-traumatise survivors, but we also do not want to reinforce ideas of shame. Think about some of the work Grace Tame did which was recognised in her being named Australian of the Year. She has fought to change laws that gagged survivors from speaking about their experiences. Again, we see structural issues – laws which arose from paternalistic concepts that survivors of sexual abuse would be ashamed of their victimhood (and have yet to be changed in Victoria I think). She has worked with law enforcement agencies around the world to improve their understanding of grooming. She also believes that child sexual abuse can be eradicated:

Part of the structural issue with those laws is the concept that people under 18 shouldn't be publically identified. Its reasonable but what happened with Grace Tame illustates its limits. On the positive side we are listening to her point out the issues it raised and will probably act on them. This is a good thing. But yeah by all means listen to what she has to say. I don't think she's right about the eradication of child abuse tho, for a whole bunch of reasons.

All too often the response to the Epstein case is that it is somehow special because he was rich and powerful. The voices of the survivors, we are told, will inevitably be lost because of its scandalous nature, the circle of rich and powerful people he consorted with who are implicated by association. We are taken down rabbit holes of QAnon, the cloak and dagger world of intelligence agencies, the apparently mysterious sources of Epstein’s wealth. It has come up time and again in this thread, and it all distracts from the quotidian banality of sexual abuse.

It isn't special because it is mundane, banal ... business as usual, its just something that not in full public view. A few years ago one of Bowie and Jimmie Page's 14 year old groupies wrote an article talking about how much fun she had back in the 70s.... She copped alot of backlash from survivors of abuse for wtte of not being sufficiently traumatised. Don't get me wrong. They were sleazy campaigners, its dodgy as. But her treatment was hardly supportive. Those two were cultural icons, they didn't need a network it was the rock and roll lifestyle at the time.

But the voices of the survivors are there. They aren’t even difficult to find – many are there on his Wikipedia page, complete with links to sources. We know the intense guilt some feel because they acted as recruiters for Maxwell and Epstein, bringing high school friends to his parties. “Grooming” comes up time and again. And (somewhat) pleasingly, there is evidence that things are changing – a review of his non-prosecution agreement in 2008 found that it should never have been allowed because it was negotiated without consultation with the survivors.

Like Tame, I believe we can live in a world without child sexual abuse. Previously I mentioned how justifications of colonialism changed between its beginnings in pre-modern times and the Enlightenment era. Eventually it could not be justified at all. Sexual assault of minors is already criminalised to a greater extent than it has been in past centuries. To take the next step we need to make its ugly reality visible. Sunlight really is the best disinfectant.

Like I said, i know more than enough survivors to have a very jaded view of the world. There is nothing special about Epstein and Maxwell. Its how the world's intelligence agencies operate. The people who groomed Epstein were connected to the US intelligence community. Its a pretty safe assumption that Maxwell's old man worked for both Mossad and MI6 and she was well enough connected to them, her father groomed her for his lifestyle. Its not like this is the only one of these networks either. Its just getting busted cos the people that operated it and ran it are old news and no longer powerful enough to keep their hands clean.

it would be nice to live in a world where this sort of thing didn't happen but how do you achieve it?

 

[goalieboy82]

 

[Val Keating]

I know this is a rag, but would the records be correct?

Jeffrey Epstein visited Clinton White House 17 times, logs reveal

Visitor logs obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com reveal Jeffrey Epstein visited the White House at least 17 times during Bill Clinton's first term between 1993 and 1995.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[ferball]

I know this is a rag, but would the records be correct?

Jeffrey Epstein visited Clinton White House 17 times, logs reveal

Visitor logs obtained exclusively by DailyMail.com reveal Jeffrey Epstein visited the White House at least 17 times during Bill Clinton's first term between 1993 and 1995.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Its a pretty in depth article and claims to be the result of an FOI request. It names names, and specifies dates and times and claims that the people named were contacted but refused comment.

Any other journalist did that for any other media outlet and it would be assumed legit.

 

[Val Keating]

Its a pretty in depth article and claims to be the result of an FOI request. It names names, and specifies dates and times and claims that the people named were contacted but refused comment.

Any other journalist did that for any other media outlet and it would be assumed legit.

For the Epstein trial all this type of information- including the flight logs were subpoenaed. Is all going to come out.

 

[ferball]

For the Epstein trial all this type of information- including the flight logs were subpoenaed. Is all going to come out.

This White House info has nothing to do with any trial. Its just the public visitors records. Epstein was involved with a whole lot of other stuff, interational arms deals and the biggest financial fraud in history up till that point believe it or not, but clearly was aiming to meet Clinton and become associated with him.

 

[wolvesRoos]

Watched Bathurst for first time in full since North last won the flag yesterday.

Whats happened to it. it is supposed to be an endurance race. Its just a series of sprints now they bring the safety car out as soon as a car goes off the track or stops.

 

[koshari]

loungeroom sorted finally,
before,


during,


progressing,



finished,

 

[goalieboy82]

loungeroom sorted finally,
before,
View attachment 1292758

during,
View attachment 1292759

progressing,

View attachment 1292760

finished,

View attachment 1292761

 

[goalieboy82]

loungeroom sorted finally,
before,
View attachment 1292758

during,
View attachment 1292759

progressing,

View attachment 1292760

finished,

View attachment 1292761

and don't forget:

 

[big_e]

In light of the Maxwell discussion, I’m surprised more ain’t talking about this..

Western Australian Nationals MP James Hayward granted bail on child sexual abuse charges

WA police allege 52-year-old former federal party vice-president indecently assaulted eight-year-old girl in 2021

www.theguardian.com

It was on the front page of the newspaper, followed by a double page spread inside, and then stories on the next three days, as well as leading the TV news in the state that it happened in.

An obscure first-term upper house MP in Western Australia very, very rarely would be newsworthy anywhere else.

 

[koshari]

and don't forget:

I won't in a hurry. Missus has claimed the chair front and square . Now kitchen to get sorted..

 

[koshari]

Ahh cattle all jabbed and drenched. Baby bull cows ringed. And jury duty cancelled due to cows calving. Great start to the day.

 

[Makeshift Park]

Can someone do this bloke and his fellow interstate dummies a solid and explain the politics of Melb stadiums for Vic teams?

ie. How did the AFL decide which home ground Melbourne teams got? Why don't Essendon and Carlton play all their home games at the MCG given their support base? Would most fans of Marvel-based teams prefer to have the MCG as their home ground?

Its possibly been posted elsewhere in the vast archives of this website or elsewhere already, in which case, free to link.

 

[Val Keating]

Can someone do this bloke and his fellow interstate dummies a solid and explain the politics of Melb stadiums for Vic teams?

ie. How did the AFL decide which home ground Melbourne teams got? Why don't Essendon and Carlton play all their home games at the MCG given their support base? Would most fans of Marvel-based teams would prefer to have the MCG as their home ground?

Its possibly been posted elsewhere in the vast archives of this website or elsewhere already, in which case, free to link.

Basically the AFL had to pay off Docklands.

I’m sure there are many threads on it but I don’t know where to point you.

 

[B4Bear]

Can someone do this bloke and his fellow interstate dummies a solid and explain the politics of Melb stadiums for Vic teams?

ie. How did the AFL decide which home ground Melbourne teams got? Why don't Essendon and Carlton play all their home games at the MCG given their support base? Would most fans of Marvel-based teams prefer to have the MCG as their home ground?

Its possibly been posted elsewhere in the vast archives of this website or elsewhere already, in which case, free to link.

You are wasting your time. It is interstate dickheads that want to bury us and the smaller Vic clubs. Tell em to learn to play football better and stop whining.

 

[Val Keating]

How’s the form of this bloke?! He goes on Alex Jones show and plays along with the theme that Australia is under some sort of dictatorship, calls for protests at Australian embassy’s.

The prick is leaving parliament and he’s just done it to promote his media platform, which hes going to focus on after he retires from parliament. He’s either completely mental or has no conscious.

George Christensen uses US conspiracy show appearance to call for Australian embassy protests

The Coalition backbencher has urged viewers of a far-right US conspiracy theorist’s online show to hold protests outside Australian embassies.

www.smh.com.au

 

[B4Bear]

How’s the form of this bloke?! He goes on Alex Jones show and plays along with the theme that Australia is under some sort of dictatorship, calls for protests at Australian embassy’s.

The prick is leaving parliament and he’s just done it to promote his media platform, which hes going to focus on after he retires from parliament. He’s either completely mental or has no conscious.

George Christensen uses US conspiracy show appearance to call for Australian embassy protests

The Coalition backbencher has urged viewers of a far-right US conspiracy theorist’s online show to hold protests outside Australian embassies.

www.smh.com.au

He is an odious piece of shit. The member for Manila is a ****ing disgrace to this country.

Covid has revealed who the real nutters are in this country; he and Craig Kelly top the list imo.

 

[Val Keating]

When you see it

 

[Shinboner1]

When you see it

View attachment 1293436

?

 

[Val Keating]

?

That’s Epsteins island in the background with that weird temple.

 

[Ligma]

That’s Epsteins island in the background with that weird temple.

I first looked at it like huh

then my eyes WIDENED

I blinked again

ZOOMED IN AND HAD A DOUBLE TAKE

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

it would be nice to live in a world where this sort of thing didn't happen but how do you achieve it?

Well, I agree with Grace Tame, you do it through education. There is a broad discussion about consent in the community at the moment and the issue of child sexual abuse can be brought into that conversation. Make children aware of what grooming is and what they should do if they feel it is happening to them. That if you are manipulated into apparently giving consent, that is not true consent. That sexual relationships between adults and children can never be consensual.

A proportion of the survivors of Maxwell and Epstein had previously been abused by other adults. If we can reduce abuse in society generally, we will reduce opportunities for abuse by the rich and powerful.

Part of the structural issue with those laws is the concept that people under 18 shouldn't be publically identified. Its reasonable but what happened with Grace Tame illustates its limits.

Yes, the laws undoubtedly came from a place of good intentions, but part of those good intentions was a notion that survivors would (perhaps should) feel ashamed of their abuse. And of course by their nature laws are rigid and they effectively became gag orders for survivors that reinforced ideas of shame. Tame's fight against that is terrific - shifting the shame from survivor to perpetrator. But of course we should not expect that all survivors will want to talk about their abuse and that is fine. Just as long as we are providing them support and not limiting their right to speak about their experience if they wish to.

It isn't special because it is mundane, banal ... business as usual, its just something that not in full public view. A few years ago one of Bowie and Jimmie Page's 14 year old groupies wrote an article talking about how much fun she had back in the 70s.... She copped alot of backlash from survivors of abuse for wtte of not being sufficiently traumatised. Don't get me wrong. They were sleazy campaigners, its dodgy as. But her treatment was hardly supportive. Those two were cultural icons, they didn't need a network it was the rock and roll lifestyle at the time.

I'm not 100% sure of what you mean with that first sentence, but I guess I would say let's make it in full view as much as we can. Let's expose the abuse and be disturbed by it, so we can take meaningful action to prevent it.

Re Bowie and Page groupies - I guess you are referring to Lori Mattix? Times change and we shouldn't criticise people for how they perceive and process their past experiences. There are people who have wonderful relationships and family lives following an arranged marriage to a much older man as a teenager. I don't think they are wrong to feel that way, but I don't want it for my daughter. I would also point out that Mattix herself has said: " I don’t think underage girls should sleep with guys... I wouldn’t want this for anybody’s daughter. My perspective is changing as I get older and more cynical."

Like I said, i know more than enough survivors to have a very jaded view of the world. There is nothing special about Epstein and Maxwell. Its how the world's intelligence agencies operate. The people who groomed Epstein were connected to the US intelligence community. Its a pretty safe assumption that Maxwell's old man worked for both Mossad and MI6 and she was well enough connected to them, her father groomed her for his lifestyle. Its not like this is the only one of these networks either. Its just getting busted cos the people that operated it and ran it are old news and no longer powerful enough to keep their hands clean.

I haven't seen the evidence for this, and I cannot be bothered searching right now. If true, it would be great if it were uncovered and action taken against those responsible. It is a strong argument for greater oversight of those agencies - I doubt that Israeli or British citizens would accept the sexual abuse of children for the sake of foreign policy. But equally important, if we create a world where children are safe from child abuse we create a world where intelligence agencies are not able to use it as a means of blackmail and leverage. I doubt they use homosexuality against individuals any longer, because as a society we have removed the stigma (and criminality) of same-sex relationships. If we remove the opportunities for abuse by educating our children hopefully the spooks will have to look to something else to obtain their objectives, hopefully far less harmful to innocent parties.

There doesn't have to be an actual link for it to be assumed in the minds of the target audience. You're wrong about the bold bit tho. Trump is almost incidental to it. Like I said upthread and earlier in this comment, the daily grail writer got it right tho he probably doesn't want to face the implications of his comment. Its designed to build an army of useful idiots to aid in a far right uprising. Trump's a useful stepping stone along the way but this stuff is neither new or unique to Trump. And QAnon is just the latest iteration of CFR/Trilateral Commission run the world conspiracy theories. Guess who was a member of both groups. LOL.

Largely agree, at least insofar as Trump is just a convenient figurehead for a far right movement. I'm not convinced that anybody is planning a far right uprising, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility. I think it is more likely they just want useful idiots to help establish popular power within the existing framework of American democracy, albeit pushing mightily at the edges to see wear it might conveniently break.

 

[Ligma]

Well, I agree with Grace Tame, you do it through education. There is a broad discussion about consent in the community at the moment and the issue of child sexual abuse can be brought into that conversation. Make children aware of what grooming is and what they should do if they feel it is happening to them. That if you are manipulated into apparently giving consent, that is not true consent. That sexual relationships between adults and children can never be consensual.

That’s easier said than done.

 

[CharlieMortdecai]

That’s easier said than done.

Absolutely. There are many worthwhile things in this world that are exceedingly difficult to do. But you start and you try, and where you fail you learn and improve.

In the 1970s and 1980s it must have seemed impossible that one day we would live in a world where two gay men could get married and start a family. Yet there were people who believed that it was right and fair, and they worked on achieving it. It took nigh on 50 years, but our world is better for it.